Armour of russ nurfed

[lonewolf81]

So now if you give a unit that fights first ,the "fight last" debuff ,it fights with neither first nor last, while before it fought only after all other eligible units have done so Edited June 2, 2021 by lonewolf81

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

Here is tge exact text from the mission pack tactical deployment FAQ:

 

*Page 98 – Rare Rules, Always Fight First/Last Add the following paragraphs to the end of this Rare Rules entry:

 

‘Note that it doesn’t matter how many rules are affecting a unit that enable it to fight first, or how many rules are affecting it that say it cannot be selected to fight until after all other units have done so - if a unit is under the effects of one or more of both kinds of ability simultaneously it instead fights as if none of those rules are affecting it.

 

Note that the Counter-offensive Stratagem requires you to select a unit that is eligible to fight. This means that if a unit is under the effects of a rule that says that it is not eligible to fight until after all other eligible units have done so, then unless it is also under the effects of a rule that lets it fight first, you will not be able to select that unit to use the Counter-offensive Stratagem.

 

Some examples of rules that always allow a unit to strike first include Martial Superiority and Veil of Time (see Codex: Space Marines), Precognitive Strike (see Codex: Necrons), etc. Also note, as per the core rules, that units that have charged fight first in the Fight phase, and for the purposes of this rare rule this is considered to be a rule that lets a unit always strike first.

 

Some examples of rules that always make a unit strike last (or say a unit cannot be selected to fight until after all other eligible units have done so) include Tempormortis (see Codex: Space Marines),

The Armour of Russ (see Codex Supplement: Space Wolves), Obeisance Generators (see Codex: Necrons), etc.’

 

*edit because copy paste did weird stuff

Edited June 2, 2021 by Rune Priest Jbickb

[Dark Shepherd]

I wouldnt say its a nerf. Still powerful and opponent cant interupt

 

Wouldve thought the cancel each other out was how it worked anyway

[Lord Raven 19]

OP, that was always how it worked, they've just clarified that you can't stack multiple fight lasts to make a fight first unit fight last, and added examples of such abilities. The rule saying they cancel out is in the BRB without any FAQs.

 

See the top of page 362 in the BRB.

Edited June 2, 2021 by Lord Raven 19

[TiguriusX]

OP, that was always how it worked, they've just clarified that you can't stack multiple fight lasts to make a fight first unit fight last, and added examples of such abilities. The rule saying they cancel out is in the BRB without any FAQs.

 

See the top of page 362 in the BRB.

 

Not how it always worked.

 

Charging was not considered a fight first skill in 9th.

 

Before the nerf you could drop chargers into a fight phase AFTER all defenders

 

With armor of russ + murderous hurricane it meant you could prevent 2 units from doing any damage until all of your units got a chance to swing. 

 

It was one of our greatest strengths as a faction IMO.

 

 

 

Now...with this update you select 1 unit and then they get to activate the charging unit that was stopped

[Lord Raven 19]

Ok, that makes more sense, didn't see that, thanks. With fight last rules becoming more common, might be a buff for a melee army such as wolves to not get locked up as much when charging though?

[TiguriusX]

Ok, that makes more sense, didn't see that, thanks. With fight last rules becoming more common, might be a buff for a melee army such as wolves to not get locked up as much when charging though?

 

IMO it is a subtle nerf but it cuts right to the heart of the SW strengths I have been relying on to dominate melee combats.

 

I'm already theory crafting wulfen hordes and a YOLO style of play. 

 

Forget first/last.  Fight even if you die!

 

 

 

I am also pondering if warrior born has increased in value and how to make it work

[ORKILL]

It's definitely a nerf. 

[TheUnlikelyGamer84]

 

 

Ok, that makes more sense, didn't see that, thanks. With fight last rules becoming more common, might be a buff for a melee army such as wolves to not get locked up as much when charging though?

I'm already theory crafting wulfen hordes and a YOLO style of play.

Been using this the last couple months to live my best life. Lol. Been using at least 2 units and doing serious work.

[Chazzmos]

Definitely a nerf, but it's still good.

 

The last tournament I played I took 3rd, only dropping a game to another SW player.  The major castle I had was 3 x Redemptors with a Wolf Lord with the AoR in the middle of them.  If anyone charged, the WL Heroicly Intervened, then used AoS, and all of the Redemptors punched whatever had charged them.   Now, only one of my units would get to fight, then the charger would, then my other units.

 

It now makes a charger not count as charging, which is still good (not as good) and during our turn it still acts in exactly the same way.

[Dark Shepherd]

Damn upon rereading it it is a nerf to us as a faction as spamming fights last was our thing

 

Now fights last means when we charge they cant use counter attack strat or applies to those rare prolonged combats or just nerfs factions/traits with always fights first

 

When we are charged it just means one of our units gets to go ahead of one of theirs and we have a chance to interrupt to break up the sequence further

Edited June 3, 2021 by Dark Shepherd

[Chazzmos]

That's true, I hadn't realised that.  If they charge 2 units into two of ours, we could use AoR on one of them, then one of their chargers fights, then we could interrupt, then fight with our other unit.  This would be them, us, us, them.

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

Thanks for all the advice guys I think it has helped me orient myself for 9th. I intend to bring the following:

 

 

++ Patrol Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Adeptus Astartes - Space Wolves) [52 PL, 6CP, 1,000pts] ++

 

+ Configuration +

 

**Chapter Selector**: Space Wolves

 

Battle Size [6CP]: 2. Incursion (51-100 Total PL / 501-1000 Points)

 

Detachment Command Cost

 

+ HQ +

 

Chaplain [7 PL, 140pts]: 4. Mantra of Strength, 6. Canticle of Hate (Aura), Chapter Command: Master of Sanctity, Jump Pack, Power fist

 

Harald Deathwolf [7 PL, 140pts]: Hunter, Warlord

 

+ Troops +

 

Infiltrator Squad [6 PL, 130pts]: Helix gauntlet

. 4x Infiltrator: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Marksman bolt carbine

. Infiltrator Sergeant

 

Intercessor Squad [10 PL, 125pts]: Astartes Grenade Launcher, Bolt rifle

. 5x Intercessor: 5x Bolt pistol, 5x Frag & Krak grenades

. Intercessor Sergeant

 

+ Elites +

 

Wulfen [8 PL, 170pts]

. Wulfen Pack Leader: Wulfen Frost claws

. 3x Wulfen w/ great frost axe: 3x Great frost axe

. Wulfen w/ thunder hammer & storm shield: Thunder Hammer

 

+ Fast Attack +

 

Thunderwolf Cavalry [7 PL, 160pts]

. Thunderwolf Cavalry: Astartes Chainsword, Storm shield

. Thunderwolf Cavalry: Astartes Chainsword, Storm shield

. Thunderwolf Cavalry Pack Leader: Power fist, Storm shield

 

+ Heavy Support +

 

Eradicator Squad [7 PL, 135pts]: Melta rifle

. 2x Eradicator: 2x Bolt pistol

. Eradicator Sgt

 

++ Total: [52 PL, 6CP, 1,000pts] ++

 

Created with BattleScribe

 

I figure if we end up at 500 point games, there's a few list options in here for me and if we go a thousand this should give me a taste of several units. I will likely also bring a few extra models, like a Redemptor incase in a second game I feel tye need for some fire power.

 

Now I need to study some missions and secondaries and see if I can really get my head around this stuff.

 

Any hints on missions and secondaries?

 

 

EDIT: Mods I screwed up and replied to the wrong post. Any chance this could be moved to my Wisdom from the Pack thread. That'll teach me to post before coffee

Edited June 9, 2021 by Rune Priest Jbickb

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

For missions just try to score at least 10 on the primary every turn for 1000 point games. The secondaries are more complicated my suggestion is just look for ones that seem to fit your playstyle and then make an effort to keep trying new ones.

[Bulwyf]

This is definitely a nerf to us. As noted above one of the few things we had to set us apart from other SM was the fight last ability. Now that's gone. 

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

It's true that it does nerf us a bit but I think in the long run its probably better that it gets nerfed. GW wouldn't make a flowchart explaining the rule interactions unless there wasn't a lot more coming. While it was an advantage against marines because we have more sources than they do, I don't expect us to have more sources than every other army. 

[yan]

So I still don't get it fully.

Yesterday I played a game against Necrons. He charged my chaplin with the warrior born (fight first) with a canpotek Spyder, and a Conoptek scarab swarms. I inteveent with my libarian with armour of russ into his scarabs.

I thought we get to deal with it like a normal sequence, since the fight first from the charge is canceled out to the warrior born, and scarabs got the fight last from the armour of russ.

So that would be: Chaplain, Spyder, Libarian, Scarabs.

He said its like this: Libarian, Spyder, scarabs, chaplain

I didn't understand but didn't really had the time to check it out properly, so we did it his way and my chaplin got slaughtered.

what would be the right sequence in this case?

[Toldavf]

So I still don't get it fully.

Yesterday I played a game against Necrons. He charged my chaplin with the warrior born (fight first) with a canpotek Spyder, and a Conoptek scarab swarms. I inteveent with my libarian with armour of russ into his scarabs.

I thought we get to deal with it like a normal sequence, since the fight first from the charge is canceled out to the warrior born, and scarabs got the fight last from the armour of russ.

So that would be: Chaplain, Spyder, Libarian, Scarabs.

He said its like this: Libarian, Spyder, scarabs, chaplain

I didn't understand but didn't really had the time to check it out properly, so we did it his way and my chaplin got slaughtered.

what would be the right sequence in this case?

 

You where right I believe. 

[Ragnar69]

I would says spyder, chaplain, librarian, scarabs.

Spider and chapy have fight first and the player whose turn it is has the first pick.

Libby and scarabs fight normal and the other player has the first pick

[Kallas]

I would says spyder, chaplain, librarian, scarabs.

Spider and chapy have fight first and the player whose turn it is has the first pick.

Libby and scarabs fight normal and the other player has the first pick

 

This is accurate.

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

I will say it is instances like this that make me miss the old initiative stat. No thinking. Just have fights first add to initiative or set it at 10, and do the same with fights last only set it at 1. Then only alternating needs to get figured out if things have the same value. This system is way too fiddly

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I will say it is instances like this that make me miss the old initiative stat. No thinking. Just have fights first add to initiative or set it at 10, and do the same with fights last only set it at 1. Then only alternating needs to get figured out if things have the same value. This system is way too fiddly

 

I sort of agree but I don't remember the old initiative rules alternating. If you had the same initiative your models still got to swing, which is why BA could be pain with +1 to both S and I on the charge. 

 

Personally I think the issue has more to do with how much strikes first & strikes last abilities are in the game now. It used to be really rare (howling banshees on the charge, and some slaanesh units). Now it seems like every fraction has a stratagem or character capable of doing it.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/OQ1TeUZ6hxw5jp1e.pdf

 

This is a good explanation with a visual example.

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

 

 

I will say it is instances like this that make me miss the old initiative stat. No thinking. Just have fights first add to initiative or set it at 10, and do the same with fights last only set it at 1. Then only alternating needs to get figured out if things have the same value. This system is way too fiddly

I sort of agree but I don't remember the old initiative rules alternating. If you had the same initiative your models still got to swing, which is why BA could be pain with +1 to both S and I on the charge.

 

Personally I think the issue has more to do with how much strikes first & strikes last abilities are in the game now. It used to be really rare (howling banshees on the charge, and some slaanesh units). Now it seems like every fraction has a stratagem or character capable of doing it.

Certainly wasn't a perfect system, but I do feel it was much more clear than the current method is all. I honestly think blending the 2 would be most ideal but I started in 5th so for me initiative is more logical. Still gotta get used to this new system.

[yan]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/OQ1TeUZ6hxw5jp1e.pdf

 

This is a good explanation with a visual example.

Thanks, that's really clear. Then if I get it right a fight first like the warrior born is actually harder nerfed then the Armour of Russ. Because intervening with a fight first ability is kind of pointless then.