Belial's place in full Deathwing lists

[Skywrath]

Had a bit of an interesting thought. After thinking about running Belial against a friend, I chanced across the Sword of Silence text. For reference, it's: 

 

1. Sword of Silence Melee Melee +2 -4 3 Each time an attack is made with this weapon against a unit that is not a VEHICLE, an unmodified wound roll of 2+ is always successful.

 

Seeing how Morty is making his way around the tournaments (and DG are still a menace), the fact that this profile that distinctly specifies "against a unit that is not a VEHICLE" and Mortarion is not that, by that logic, he's wounding Mortarion on 2's, correct? Sure, Mortarion has his FNP's, 4+ invuln, -1 to damage, but with 6 attacks (7 with Ezekiel), he can seriously put a dent in him. Especially if you consider mathhammer wise, a group of 10 DWK can nearly wipe out Mortarion in a single go, even on average. Throw Belial in that list on top of that, and he's most certainly dead in a single turn.

 

With this in mind, can we see Belial (especially in full Deathwing lists) as a niche tech option against competitive DG lists? Discuss.

Edited June 3, 2021 by Skywrath

[davextreme]

How do full Deathwing lists perform? I’d worry about 1) mobility — getting units where I need them on the board, and 2] having to waste costly units on backfield objectives (though I guess people use 2-man Command Squads for this?).

[Skywrath]

How do full Deathwing lists perform? I’d worry about 1) mobility — getting units where I need them on the board, and 2] having to waste costly units on backfield objectives (though I guess people use 2-man Command Squads for this?).

 

From personal experience, really well, surprisingly. Depending on tournament you take WWSWF, Stubborn Defiance, maybe banners/engage, and just exist on points. Then just pennant one squad, apothecary the injured one, bring the other deathwing brick from reserves, and go to town while having ObSec on both of them. In an ideal scenario you'd be bringing some greenwing in the form of Infiltrators perhaps and plasma, but full deathwing (with the correct loadout) works just as well, without gimping yourself too much. 

Edited June 3, 2021 by Skywrath

[Galthan Ironsturm]

We Can put some Bladeguards on Repulsor with DW uograde to win mobility...

That Can make thé joke !

 

Impulsor can't be uograde DW? Right?

[oldmanlee]

We Can put some Bladeguards on Repulsor with DW uograde to win mobility...

That Can make thé joke !

Impulsor can't be uograde DW? Right?

Yeah the impulsor can't be deathwing

What apothecary do people run ravenwing or deathwing? Ones the problem I have with the ravenwing one is he takes up a elite slot and if you take azzie(who I think is an auto include in a deathwing list) you don't get the free slot command squad

[G8Keeper]

DW lists are pretty killy and survivable.  I lost half of my force on turn 2 this past weekend and managed to pull off a 59-53 VP win (against Fallen and Alpha Legion allies ).  Belial is there to give a unit his re-rolls for most of the game and counter charge anything that gets brave.  In my last turn he dispatched Lord Arkos (Alpha Legion character) with ease to deny 3 points for While We Stand We Fight.

 

My tactics usually involve taking the centre of the board and holding with a 10-man shooty DW unit with 2 TH+SS to tank stuff.  I then let my DWK's off the leash to bash something and generally scare my opponent into ignoring my central unit who are racking up Primary and often a couple of Secondary objectives, one of which is Stubborn Defiance.

Edited June 3, 2021 by G8Keeper

[Brother Bahram]

Had a bit of an interesting thought. After thinking about running Belial against a friend, I chanced across the Sword of Silence text. For reference, it's: 

 

1. Sword of Silence Melee Melee +2 -4 3 Each time an attack is made with this weapon against a unit that is not a VEHICLE, an unmodified wound roll of 2+ is always successful.

 

Seeing how Morty is making his way around the tournaments (and DG are still a menace), the fact that this profile that distinctly specifies "against a unit that is not a VEHICLE" and Mortarion is not that, by that logic, he's wounding Mortarion on 2's, correct? Sure, Mortarion has his FNP's, 4+ invuln, -1 to damage, but with 6 attacks (7 with Ezekiel), he can seriously put a dent in him. Especially if you consider mathhammer wise, a group of 10 DWK can nearly wipe out Mortarion in a single go, even on average. Throw Belial in that list on top of that, and he's most certainly dead in a single turn.

 

With this in mind, can we see Belial (especially in full Deathwing lists) as a niche tech option against competitive DG lists? Discuss.

Belial with Apothecary, Knights and Command Squad. Not a cheap bunch of guys, but can deliver a good punch and stand strong.

[march10k]

Definitely ravenwing apothecary.  The mobility makes him flat out broken.  Instead of being tied to one unit, he can actually react to what happened on your opponent's turn.  

 

I like a brick of shooty deathwing on a home objective with Azrael to score 15 secondary points while setting a baseline for the primary objective.  Couple that with about 8 DWK and a DW master of sanctity and you can pretty much delete the enemy's key beatstick before jumping on the nearest objective to raise that primary objective baseline to 2-0.  When you have anvils on two objectives and are fighting for the other 2-4, it's pretty hard to lose the primary. Victory then comes down to careful selection of the other two secondary objectives.  But I definitely don't run pure deathwing.  I run standard bikes, assault intercessors, and plasma inceptors in the midfield, with Zeke to support them.  

[G8Keeper]

Definitely ravenwing apothecary.  The mobility makes him flat out broken.  Instead of being tied to one unit, he can actually react to what happened on your opponent's turn.  

 

I like a brick of shooty deathwing on a home objective with Azrael to score 15 secondary points while setting a baseline for the primary objective.  Couple that with about 8 DWK and a DW master of sanctity and you can pretty much delete the enemy's key beatstick before jumping on the nearest objective to raise that primary objective baseline to 2-0.  When you have anvils on two objectives and are fighting for the other 2-4, it's pretty hard to lose the primary. Victory then comes down to careful selection of the other two secondary objectives.  But I definitely don't run pure deathwing.  I run standard bikes, assault intercessors, and plasma inceptors in the midfield, with Zeke to support them.  

 

What do people tend to take for the other two secondaries? I ran Attrition and a mission specific one last run out, 0 points for Attrition and only managed a fair few points on the mission secondary because it was to hold the centre objective (trolled a bit with that + primary + it was my selection for Stubborn Defiance).

[Angel of Solitude]

 

Definitely ravenwing apothecary.  The mobility makes him flat out broken.  Instead of being tied to one unit, he can actually react to what happened on your opponent's turn.  

 

I like a brick of shooty deathwing on a home objective with Azrael to score 15 secondary points while setting a baseline for the primary objective.  Couple that with about 8 DWK and a DW master of sanctity and you can pretty much delete the enemy's key beatstick before jumping on the nearest objective to raise that primary objective baseline to 2-0.  When you have anvils on two objectives and are fighting for the other 2-4, it's pretty hard to lose the primary. Victory then comes down to careful selection of the other two secondary objectives.  But I definitely don't run pure deathwing.  I run standard bikes, assault intercessors, and plasma inceptors in the midfield, with Zeke to support them.  

 

What do people tend to take for the other two secondaries? I ran Attrition and a mission specific one last run out, 0 points for Attrition and only managed a fair few points on the mission secondary because it was to hold the centre objective (trolled a bit with that + primary + it was my selection for Stubborn Defiance).

 

 

My other two secondaries (pre-Chapter Approved) were While We Stand We Fight and Raise the Banners High:

• WWSWF because the three units in question are 2x10 Terminator Squads and a Talonmaster. The first two are a pain to shift, and I can usually protect the Talonmaster to score a full 15 points.
• Banners because with two big ObSec DW blobs on two objectives it's virtually an automatic min-10 pointer, and I can inevitably pick up other points with the rest of my army.

One point about WWSWF: to enable a Talonmaster to be one of my three units, it means that every other unit in my army has to be cheaper than a Talonmaster. For example, I have 3x2 Attack Bike Squads rather than 2x3, and a 5-man squad of Plasceptors aren't an option for me.

[march10k]

 

 

Definitely ravenwing apothecary.  The mobility makes him flat out broken.  Instead of being tied to one unit, he can actually react to what happened on your opponent's turn.  

 

I like a brick of shooty deathwing on a home objective with Azrael to score 15 secondary points while setting a baseline for the primary objective.  Couple that with about 8 DWK and a DW master of sanctity and you can pretty much delete the enemy's key beatstick before jumping on the nearest objective to raise that primary objective baseline to 2-0.  When you have anvils on two objectives and are fighting for the other 2-4, it's pretty hard to lose the primary. Victory then comes down to careful selection of the other two secondary objectives.  But I definitely don't run pure deathwing.  I run standard bikes, assault intercessors, and plasma inceptors in the midfield, with Zeke to support them.  

 

What do people tend to take for the other two secondaries? I ran Attrition and a mission specific one last run out, 0 points for Attrition and only managed a fair few points on the mission secondary because it was to hold the centre objective (trolled a bit with that + primary + it was my selection for Stubborn Defiance).

 

 

My other two secondaries (pre-Chapter Approved) were While We Stand We Fight and Raise the Banners High:

• WWSWF because the three units in question are 2x10 Terminator Squads and a Talonmaster. The first two are a pain to shift, and I can usually protect the Talonmaster to score a full 15 points.
• Banners because with two big ObSec DW blobs on two objectives it's virtually an automatic min-10 pointer, and I can inevitably pick up other points with the rest of my army.

One point about WWSWF: to enable a Talonmaster to be one of my three units, it means that every other unit in my army has to be cheaper than a Talonmaster. For example, I have 3x2 Attack Bike Squads rather than 2x3, and a 5-man squad of Plasceptors aren't an option for me.

 

 

I use WWSWF anyway in spite of the plasceptors.  Ten points is nothing to sneeze at if they die, and with the ambulance, as long as they don't get wiped, I can usually keep them alive long enough for two good turns of shooting and then hope that 1-2 survives to hide and preserve the secondary points...or at least force my opponent to make a tough choice by hunting them in a corner of the table where the hunting unit literally can't do anything else to affect the outcome of the game.  It seems to me like you're handicapping yourself too much by limiting the points spent per unit in order to force the talonmaster to be the third unit.  I'm not sure that's a reasonable thing to do in order to increase the chance of getting 5 points.

 

My third one...is a game time decision, depending on my opponent's list.  

[Angel of Solitude]

 

 

 

Definitely ravenwing apothecary.  The mobility makes him flat out broken.  Instead of being tied to one unit, he can actually react to what happened on your opponent's turn.  

 

I like a brick of shooty deathwing on a home objective with Azrael to score 15 secondary points while setting a baseline for the primary objective.  Couple that with about 8 DWK and a DW master of sanctity and you can pretty much delete the enemy's key beatstick before jumping on the nearest objective to raise that primary objective baseline to 2-0.  When you have anvils on two objectives and are fighting for the other 2-4, it's pretty hard to lose the primary. Victory then comes down to careful selection of the other two secondary objectives.  But I definitely don't run pure deathwing.  I run standard bikes, assault intercessors, and plasma inceptors in the midfield, with Zeke to support them.  

 

What do people tend to take for the other two secondaries? I ran Attrition and a mission specific one last run out, 0 points for Attrition and only managed a fair few points on the mission secondary because it was to hold the centre objective (trolled a bit with that + primary + it was my selection for Stubborn Defiance).

 

 

My other two secondaries (pre-Chapter Approved) were While We Stand We Fight and Raise the Banners High:

• WWSWF because the three units in question are 2x10 Terminator Squads and a Talonmaster. The first two are a pain to shift, and I can usually protect the Talonmaster to score a full 15 points.
• Banners because with two big ObSec DW blobs on two objectives it's virtually an automatic min-10 pointer, and I can inevitably pick up other points with the rest of my army.

One point about WWSWF: to enable a Talonmaster to be one of my three units, it means that every other unit in my army has to be cheaper than a Talonmaster. For example, I have 3x2 Attack Bike Squads rather than 2x3, and a 5-man squad of Plasceptors aren't an option for me.

 

 

I use WWSWF anyway in spite of the plasceptors.  Ten points is nothing to sneeze at if they die, and with the ambulance, as long as they don't get wiped, I can usually keep them alive long enough for two good turns of shooting and then hope that 1-2 survives to hide and preserve the secondary points...or at least force my opponent to make a tough choice by hunting them in a corner of the table where the hunting unit literally can't do anything else to affect the outcome of the game.  It seems to me like you're handicapping yourself too much by limiting the points spent per unit in order to force the talonmaster to be the third unit.  I'm not sure that's a reasonable thing to do in order to increase the chance of getting 5 points.

 

My third one...is a game time decision, depending on my opponent's list.  

 

It's an interesting trade-off for sure, and ultimately depends on how your list works. If I want to bring in a 5-man Plasmaceptor squad, then I'm already dropping a Talonmaster and then either an Attack Bike Squad, or 3 Terminators. Will those Plasmaceptors do more for me in my list than what I take out? Unlikely. Will they guarantee me 5 VPs like the Talonmaster will? Maybe - they could force the difference between scoring 40 and 45 on my primaries, but my Talonmaster could do a similar job.

 

The other real value to me of the Talonmaster over another option is the CHARACTER keyword. I can keep that guy out in the open, either sat behind a big blob of Terminators, or within range of a Command Squad, and he is not going to be hit, but can still hit with all his firepower. Agreed you can hide your Plasmaceptors, but in doing so you're likely to lose their firepower.

 

But hey - this is how I designed my list, and seems to be working well for me. Plenty of other options to consider too.

[G8Keeper]

I'm thinking of running my DW list against a hefty DG list this weekend.  How are people finding charging Belial forwards as I feel I may have to against an army that is going to attempt to replicate my centre of the board plonk and hold? On a related note, I found my 5-man basic Storm Bolter squads to be rather underwhelming, what if anything would you replace them with, bearing in mind I have them there to hold objectives.

[Grand Master Springemann]

 

How do full Deathwing lists perform? I’d worry about 1) mobility — getting units where I need them on the board, and 2] having to waste costly units on backfield objectives (though I guess people use 2-man Command Squads for this?).

 

From personal experience, really well, surprisingly. Depending on tournament you take WWSWF, Stubborn Defiance, maybe banners/engage, and just exist on points. Then just pennant one squad, apothecary the injured one, bring the other deathwing brick from reserves, and go to town while having ObSec on both of them. In an ideal scenario you'd be bringing some greenwing in the form of Infiltrators perhaps and plasma, but full deathwing (with the correct loadout) works just as well, without gimping yourself too much. 

 

I have been running a list that has 42ish terminators and have had some decent success. I do need more reps against White Scars and the new Dark Eldar. I do need to revise the list since the new points. 

[march10k]

 

 

 

 

Definitely ravenwing apothecary.  The mobility makes him flat out broken.  Instead of being tied to one unit, he can actually react to what happened on your opponent's turn.  

 

I like a brick of shooty deathwing on a home objective with Azrael to score 15 secondary points while setting a baseline for the primary objective.  Couple that with about 8 DWK and a DW master of sanctity and you can pretty much delete the enemy's key beatstick before jumping on the nearest objective to raise that primary objective baseline to 2-0.  When you have anvils on two objectives and are fighting for the other 2-4, it's pretty hard to lose the primary. Victory then comes down to careful selection of the other two secondary objectives.  But I definitely don't run pure deathwing.  I run standard bikes, assault intercessors, and plasma inceptors in the midfield, with Zeke to support them.  

 

What do people tend to take for the other two secondaries? I ran Attrition and a mission specific one last run out, 0 points for Attrition and only managed a fair few points on the mission secondary because it was to hold the centre objective (trolled a bit with that + primary + it was my selection for Stubborn Defiance).

 

 

My other two secondaries (pre-Chapter Approved) were While We Stand We Fight and Raise the Banners High:

• WWSWF because the three units in question are 2x10 Terminator Squads and a Talonmaster. The first two are a pain to shift, and I can usually protect the Talonmaster to score a full 15 points.
• Banners because with two big ObSec DW blobs on two objectives it's virtually an automatic min-10 pointer, and I can inevitably pick up other points with the rest of my army.

One point about WWSWF: to enable a Talonmaster to be one of my three units, it means that every other unit in my army has to be cheaper than a Talonmaster. For example, I have 3x2 Attack Bike Squads rather than 2x3, and a 5-man squad of Plasceptors aren't an option for me.

 

 

I use WWSWF anyway in spite of the plasceptors.  Ten points is nothing to sneeze at if they die, and with the ambulance, as long as they don't get wiped, I can usually keep them alive long enough for two good turns of shooting and then hope that 1-2 survives to hide and preserve the secondary points...or at least force my opponent to make a tough choice by hunting them in a corner of the table where the hunting unit literally can't do anything else to affect the outcome of the game.  It seems to me like you're handicapping yourself too much by limiting the points spent per unit in order to force the talonmaster to be the third unit.  I'm not sure that's a reasonable thing to do in order to increase the chance of getting 5 points.

 

My third one...is a game time decision, depending on my opponent's list.  

 

It's an interesting trade-off for sure, and ultimately depends on how your list works. If I want to bring in a 5-man Plasmaceptor squad, then I'm already dropping a Talonmaster and then either an Attack Bike Squad, or 3 Terminators. Will those Plasmaceptors do more for me in my list than what I take out? Unlikely. Will they guarantee me 5 VPs like the Talonmaster will? Maybe - they could force the difference between scoring 40 and 45 on my primaries, but my Talonmaster could do a similar job.

 

The other real value to me of the Talonmaster over another option is the CHARACTER keyword. I can keep that guy out in the open, either sat behind a big blob of Terminators, or within range of a Command Squad, and he is not going to be hit, but can still hit with all his firepower. Agreed you can hide your Plasmaceptors, but in doing so you're likely to lose their firepower.

 

But hey - this is how I designed my list, and seems to be working well for me. Plenty of other options to consider too.

 

 

Playstyle and list mean everything, of course, but it's not a case of 0VP for plasmaceptors and 5VP for talonmaster.  The 'ceptors will sometimes get the 5VP and the Talonmaster will sometimes get 0VP.  That aside, the 'ceptors do quite a lot for me.  They're the muscle in my midfield skirmishing force.  They bring weight that my assault intercessors and RWBs don't.  Honestly, they're targeted more for their offensive output than for the 5VP that they represent.  They delete or attrit units so that the intercessors can cap objectives. If I have Zeke removing OBSEC from the enemy on one objective and the plasma wiping the enemy off of another, I only need a turn or two of such dominance to win the primary, given that my knights are on one OBJ (no later than turn three, but often on turn two) and my shooty DW are on another.

Edited June 10, 2021 by march10k