SW and the new rare rules fighting order

[TiguriusX]

GW provided a designer notes to break down the details of the new RARE RULES fighting order

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/OQ1TeUZ6hxw5jp1e.pdf

 

 

This is both a nerf and a buff to SW

 

We lost our ability to simply crowd control multiple units with AoR and MH.

 

 

 

 

However...after some theory crafting I think warrior born is now worth taking

 

Scenario

Enemy X charges your warrior born + armor of russ beatstick SW character

 

OLD RARE RULES

If X had any strike first or last abilities he gets to fight before the SW

-strike first offsets AoR so treat as neither rule effecting it...leaves X as a charging fight unit for first activation

-strike last means both are ineligible and charging player gets first activation

 

Both situations mean the SW fights last

 

NEW RARE RULES

*counting charging as a strike first ability means it can now be removed and force a unit to fight normally

 

If X has any strike first or last abilities he is forced to fight after the SW

-Charge strike first ability gets erased from AoR and drops X to the fights normally stage.  Defending player gets first activation

-Strike last on both units means the SW fights as normal (has warrior born to offset).  Defending player gets first activation

 

We can't crowd control large numbers but we did just get a stealth buff with warrior born.  

 

 

 

Warrior born combined with armor of russ is now a true strike first ability

Edited June 3, 2021 by TiguriusX

[ranulf the revenant]

...But you would actually need both, am I right?

[TiguriusX]

...But you would actually need both, am I right?

 

Yes you need both if you want to counter all possible situations

 

Is it worth it?  Thats up to the player style

[Dark Shepherd]

Spamming fights first is only possible against characters. If you spam always fights first in tandem it would do a lot of damage but that seems hard. Saga of the warrior born is hard to activate early. We have Canis amd company champions who fight first in engagement range of characters

 

We can spam 3 or 4 fights lasts realistically and 1 fights first. That combo can still give us 3 of the first 4 attacks in a turn we are charged in

[TheUnlikelyGamer84]

Ok so just to clarify so I understand this correctly. AOR can no longer force a charging unit to fight last. It makes them fight as normal. Which would then allow defender to go first. Additionally, if we have something like warrior born then we fight before even our other defending units.

 

What if we have multiple abilities across different combats with fights last. Do each of those enemy chargers fight normally? Still allowing defenders to fight first.

[TiguriusX]

Ok so just to clarify so I understand this correctly. AOR can no longer force a charging unit to fight last. It makes them fight as normal. Which would then allow defender to go first. Additionally, if we have something like warrior born then we fight before even our other defending units.

 

What if we have multiple abilities across different combats with fights last. Do each of those enemy chargers fight normally? Still allowing defenders to fight first.

The worst you can do to a charging unit is make it fight as normal

 

That is the big change in latest FAQ

 

 

So even if you have 3 judiciar an armor of russ and murderous hurricane on the entire enemy army...they charge and fight as normal

 

Defender picks a normal unit to fight

Charger picks a normal unit to fight

 

Repeat until done

[TheUnlikelyGamer84]

So charger fights after first defender?

 

Feels like AOR is not that great now and they need to change the wording on it. As it is I feel like the GW explanation doesn’t make sense when the AOR wording says it makes the opponent ineligible to be selected until all others have fought.

[TiguriusX]

So charger fights after first defender?

 

Feels like AOR is not that great now and they need to change the wording on it. As it is I feel like the GW explanation doesn’t make sense when the AOR wording says it makes the opponent ineligible to be selected until all others have fought.

I linked the designer commentary in the original post.

 

There are 3 fighr phases

 

1-fight first

Player whose turn it is picks first (charging player swings first)

 

2-fight normal

Player whose turn it is picks second (defending player swings first)

 

3-fight last

Player whose turn it is picks first (charging player swings first)

 

Fight last has basically become an offensive centric tool but gives synergy if combined with fight first

[TheUnlikelyGamer84]

I see what they are saying but feel it’s convoluted and not crystal clear. They should have just changed the wording of the relic itself. I think they over complicated how it works now and could have worded it better. Edited June 5, 2021 by TheUnlikelyGamer84

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I see what they are saying but feel it’s convoluted and not crystal clear. They should have just changed the wording of the relic itself. I think they over complicated how it works now.

Dark Eldar and SoB both have ways of giving out fights last. So I think it's better to have a generic category for it.

[TheUnlikelyGamer84]

I know it’s stupid but I think this is the only thing that has ever made me mad in my years of 40k. The wording of this.

 

Edit: So I’ve had time to think. Maybe the play is now to use it to fight before the charger and then use the interrupt fight strat in the BRB to fight before the charger again. Would this work? How about if Ragnar used his warrior born to fight before the charger? Would all three of these units get to fight before the charger?

Edited June 5, 2021 by TheUnlikelyGamer84

[OldWherewolf]

I know it’s stupid but I think this is the only thing that has ever made me mad in my years of 40k. The wording of this.

 

Edit: So I’ve had time to think. Maybe the play is now to use it to fight before the charger and then use the interrupt fight strat in the BRB to fight before the charger again. Would this work? How about if Ragnar used his warrior born to fight before the charger? Would all three of these units get to fight before the charger?

I think so.  I think this is the way it goes.

 

1 - Unit with FF charges Ragnar & a Judiciar, & Judiciar puts FL on charger. Then the order of resolution is

• FF units: Ragnar (since he has FF, and no FL)
• Normal attacks (defender chooses first unit): 1- Judiciar then 2- charging unit (FL cancels FF/Charging)

 

2 - Unit without FF charges Ragnar & a Judiciar & Judiciar puts FL on charger. Then the order of resolution is

• FF units: Ragnar (since he has FF, and no FL)
• Normal attacks (defender chooses first unit): 1- Judiciar 2-Charger  (edit: corrected per Dark Shepherd correction below)
• Fight Last: Charging Unit  (edit: Corrected per Dark Shepherd correction below)

 

3 - Unit with FL charges Ragnar & Judiciar, Judiciar puts FL on charger, charger puts FL on Ragnar

• FF: No units (Ragnar has FL, and Judiciar puts FL on charger)
• Normal (defender chooses):  1 - Ragnar or Judiciar, 2 - Charging unit, 3 - Ragnar/Judiciar

 

Can the charger use Counter-Offensive on the turn they charged?  I think they can from this:

 

COUNTER-OFFENSIVE - 2CP

Core Stratagem

Use this Stratagem after an enemy unit has fought in this turn. Select one of your own eligible units and fight with it next.

 

so in Scenario 2, the charger could go in-between Ragnar & the Judiciar?

 

 

edit:   corrected Scenario 2 per Dark Shepherd's clarification below.

Edited June 6, 2021 by Brainpsyk

[Dark Shepherd]

Charging counts as a fights first ability so youre off in scenario two

[OldWherewolf]

Got it.  ty!

[TiguriusX]

Just had my first game against new admech.

 

Lots of the new fight first/last rules came up so I figured I would share.

 

Won 87-83 but my mind is still swirling with all their amazing new rules.

 

 

 

My opponent had a ryza detachment with sydonian dragoons and serberys raiders

 

Ryza basically have blood angel +1 to wound rule in melee.

 

That means the dragoons wound T7 or below on 2+ (S8 weapon).  I was using redemptors and hiding from his scary dragoons and laschickens.

 

Even the serberys raiders were a threat to redemptors and Bjorn with 4+ to wound and all their attacks (stratagem to give S+1 means S5 then wound +1 v T7/T8 is a 4+ to wound and they have buckets of dice to do it)

 

To make all that even worse...Admech have stratagems for both fight last and fight first on demand wherever they need it

 

In contrast...our fight first/last is extremely limited in usage and easy to avoid

 

Admech and combat ryza are going to be a real thing in the future.

 

 

 

I spent a great deal of planning avoiding his melee units.  I didn't make ANY HI b/c it was instant death if I did.

 

Seriously...I refused to throw Bjorn at 8 serberys raiders...he should be snacking on them like nothing but instead they are a major threat now

 

 

 

 

Actually feeling bitter that the SW strength just keeps disappearing.  Was hard to play around it even though I pulled out the win.

Edited June 6, 2021 by TiguriusX

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

That does sound pretty scary TiguriusX. I haven't played admech this edition so it's good to know they have alot of CC tricks. Granted admech are a crazy expensive army so I don't know if the local players will 180 into that.

[PeteySödes]

Yea the power creep seems to be insane this edition. Well done pulling through!

[TheUnlikelyGamer84]

I just played 1k with my successor wolves yesterday vs Mars Admech. I actually feared his shooting more as it was devastating. My 6 man Wulfen squad ate both his 3 man sydonian dragoon’s and his large serberys raider squad for lunch. Opponent got first turn and charged in with the dragoon into the Wulfen. Phobos Libby with AOR heroic 6” for free with strat and makes him fight normally. So naturally Wulfen were chosen first. They smooshed the chickens. He did make one autoexplode. By turn 4 when the dragoon’s had limited shooting targets left and they ran out of CP I charged them with 3 remaining Wulfen and ate them. I took more damage yesterday from all mass -1 shooting at 2+ Bs. 1 ten man ranger said put out 40 s4 -1 shots. Reminds me of 8th Ed with my Deathwatch with SIA and and storm bolters. Honestly I think I shook him when I killed his dragoons. He lamented about it all game. You can’t play with your emotions. Edited June 7, 2021 by TheUnlikelyGamer84

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I actually think that the scary thing about admech is that they can go shooting heavy or close combat. You were right to be more concerned with his shooting, but TiguriusX was also right to be concerned with melee in his matchup. Understanding what each forgeworld can do is going to be really important. Edited June 7, 2021 by Jorin Helm-splitter

[TiguriusX]

I wrote about the melee combat stuff because this is a melee first/last thread.

 

But I love good talk so let's expand on the post.

 

 

AdMech have always been good at shooting.

 

I respected it and used LOS to avoid the shooting in my game.

 

Was playing overrun in T5S2 so good terrain for me

 

But if you want the breakdown here is what I remember

 

The new rangers have an 80 shot S5 AP2 combo hitting on 2s with MW on 6 to wound (capped st 6MW).

 

You got lucky he hit you with the weak version.

 

Cognis LC have been buffed to d3+3 damage and laser chickens are just as deadly...they lost wound+1 stratagem but still wound most things on 3s so it was a minor nerf to wound with a buff to damage

 

The sterilizers can deep strike and fire flamers then 1 CP leave the board immediately. That means every turn you get flamed...it takes a toll over a game

 

So ya....admech are top tier IMO and need to be nerfed....they got too many tricks and can make other armies strengths irrelevant

 

My competitive SW list is a skew list with 3 redemptors + bjorn + murderdang + 2 WG and my LF DP doing the heavy work

 

The usage of company vet (bodyguard rule) make it competitive

 

If my opponent doesn't bring artillery I can pull nasty nasty tricks to score and move across no man land

 

The 1 nerf admech took was their artillery so he had none and couldn't stop me

[Kallas]

My opponent had a ryza detachment with sydonian dragoons and serberys raiders

 

Ryza basically have blood angel +1 to wound rule in melee.

 

That means the dragoons wound T7 or below on 2+ (S8 weapon).  I was using redemptors and hiding from his scary dragoons and laschickens.

 

Even the serberys raiders were a threat to redemptors and Bjorn with 4+ to wound and all their attacks (stratagem to give S+1 means S5 then wound +1 v T7/T8 is a 4+ to wound and they have buckets of dice to do it)

 

To make all that even worse...Admech have stratagems for both fight last and fight first on demand wherever they need it

 

---

 

Seriously...I refused to throw Bjorn at 8 serberys raiders...he should be snacking on them like nothing but instead they are a major threat now

 

Dragoons have always been kind of ridiculous. They hit insanely hard, and they're annoyingly tough.

 

But it's important to note that they don't actually have universal access to force you to fight last. That Stratagem is specifically for <Cult Mechanicus> Core/Character units, which is not a lot of their army: it's mostly the Tech-priest characters and the Electro-priests. Serberys Raiders and Sydonian Dragoons don't get access to use it; additionally, it also cannot affect Vehicles - so Bjorn would be able to charge into the Dragoons, say, and fight before them. I believe that there is also a Relic to pick a unit to fight last within 3", but this is much like avoiding Armour of Russ - far easier than, say, Death Guard's Revolting Stench Vats with its (potentially) 12" aura of not-charging-anymore. There's also no Stratagem to give a unit fight first (unless it's Book of Rust, or something?).

 

There is a Skitarii Warlord Trait (specifically for Skitarii characters, not any AdMech character) that gives one Skitarii Core unit fight first, but it's applied in their Command Phase, so it is telegraphed and it far from universally applicable (though they can give it out quite readily because of Data-Tether stuff, but it's still done in the Command Phase). 

Edited June 7, 2021 by Kallas

[TiguriusX]

 

 

My opponent had a ryza detachment with sydonian dragoons and serberys raiders

 

Ryza basically have blood angel +1 to wound rule in melee.

 

That means the dragoons wound T7 or below on 2+ (S8 weapon). I was using redemptors and hiding from his scary dragoons and laschickens.

 

Even the serberys raiders were a threat to redemptors and Bjorn with 4+ to wound and all their attacks (stratagem to give S+1 means S5 then wound +1 v T7/T8 is a 4+ to wound and they have buckets of dice to do it)

 

To make all that even worse...Admech have stratagems for both fight last and fight first on demand wherever they need it

 

---

 

Seriously...I refused to throw Bjorn at 8 serberys raiders...he should be snacking on them like nothing but instead they are a major threat now

 

But it's important to note that they don't actually have universal access to force you to fight last. That Stratagem is specifically for <Cult Mechanicus> Core/Character units, which is not a lot of their army: it's mostly the Tech-priest characters and the Electro-priests. Serberys Raiders and Sydonian Dragoons don't get access to use it; additionally, it also cannot affect Vehicles - so Bjorn would be able to charge into the Dragoons, say, and fight before them. I believe that there is also a Relic to pick a unit to fight last within 3", but this is much like avoiding Armour of Russ - far easier than, say, Death Guard's Revolting Stench Vats with its (potentially) 12" aura of not-charging-anymore. There's also no Stratagem to give a unit fight first (unless it's Book of Rust, or something?).

 

This was brought to my attention and my opponent has apologized for not understanding his new rules

 

I dont have the new AM codex so I couldn't fact check

 

I also made plenty of new codex mistakes when our new rules came out so benefit of the doubt for a normally stand up guy

 

(Seriously I applied pelt of balewolf to shooting attacks and used wulfen stone to reroll character charges at first lol)

[Kallas]

Oh for sure, it happens. Just wanted to bring attention in case it hadn't been brought up already 

[TheUnlikelyGamer84]

I wrote about the melee combat stuff because this is a melee first/last thread.

 

But I love good talk so let's expand on the post.

 

 

AdMech have always been good at shooting.

 

I respected it and used LOS to avoid the shooting in my game.

 

Was playing overrun in T5S2 so good terrain for me

 

But if you want the breakdown here is what I remember

 

The new rangers have an 80 shot S5 AP2 combo hitting on 2s with MW on 6 to wound (capped st 6MW).

 

You got lucky he hit you with the weak version.

 

Cognis LC have been buffed to d3+3 damage and laser chickens are just as deadly...they lost wound+1 stratagem but still wound most things on 3s so it was a minor nerf to wound with a buff to damage

 

The sterilizers can deep strike and fire flamers then 1 CP leave the board immediately. That means every turn you get flamed...it takes a toll over a game

 

So ya....admech are top tier IMO and need to be nerfed....they got too many tricks and can make other armies strengths irrelevant

 

My competitive SW list is a skew list with 3 redemptors + bjorn + murderdang + 2 WG and my LF DP doing the heavy work

 

The usage of company vet (bodyguard rule) make it competitive

 

If my opponent doesn't bring artillery I can pull nasty nasty tricks to score and move across no man land

 

The 1 nerf admech took was their artillery so he had none and couldn't stop me

He didn’t have a 20man squad so he couldn’t drop 80 shots on me. I’m sure in a 2k game he would have taken a larger squad. Additionally If I played the melee version I would spam “fights last” across my combats to make his chargers fight normal and not be able to interrupt. I’m planning. On taking the vindicare and Eliminators to assasinate his buffing characters. Good thing is Admech doesn’t seem tough so if combat is achieved they fold. Especially when any units that survive try to slap fight because of weakened melee from their shooting imperative. If Ryza is so good at melee then he should have taken castellan robots with fists and punched holes in stuff. From what I gleaned in review videos they are beastly with their buffs and a data smith nearby.