First born vs primaris, truly comparable?

[Captain Idaho]

That's a fluff discussion that is fairly interesting. Do Firstborn still get created alongside Primaris? What reason does GW give for this?

 

Game wise, the internal balance of Marines is pretty solid. Some big exceptions exist of course, like poor old Reivers.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

 

 

 

Some good replies. Lore wise the 1st born are likely to die off eventually or be converted. Another 1-2 thousand years? Maybe less, who knows.

 

Model wise: 11th ed maybe. I base this on nothing really but I appreciate the responses.

After reading Godblight, any Marine that lives past 100 has done a great job.

What does that make Dante?

quite a few blood angels are noted as being multiple hundred years old, however thats also noted as being pretty unusual. Cassius is about 400 iirc (i guess 5-600 now after time skip) and he is considered ancient in non blood angel geneseed chapters.

ya I have always assumed that a veteran space marine would be roughly 150-200 when they join the 1st company.

And 250-300 for most to get promoted to captain (or equally Sr status for chaplains and the like)

Edited June 7, 2021 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Lord_Ikka]

That's a fluff discussion that is fairly interesting. Do Firstborn still get created alongside Primaris? What reason does GW give for this?

Chapters that are out of contact with the Imperium, whether they be on crusades (various Black Templar crusades, Cacharodons) or simply insular (Death Spectres) or Chapters that are being withheld reinforcements due to punishment (Mantis Warriors- though they do have Primaris tech and are making Primaris Marines, they were refused Primaris reinforcements during the Indomitus Crusade due to their "historic faults") have all received relatively little Primaris reinforcements or the tech to make Primaris, though that is changing.

[crazyterran]

I could see some being made if, after the first implants, they determine the aspirant would survive the normal marine implants but not the additional strain of Primaris implantation. 

[Blindhamster]

I could see some being made if, after the first implants, they determine the aspirant would survive the normal marine implants but not the additional strain of Primaris implantation. 

except we already know in setting that primaris actually works on more candidates, not less.

 

It's most likely to be a case that firstborn continue to be made purely from logistics - easier access to everything needed to make them.

[Doghouse]

I think it'd be down to individual Chapters. Everything is pointing to Primaris being favoured to be honest, the Rubricon process is now easier, every Chapter has ample access to the tech to make Primaris now so from a lore perspective it'd make far more sense they'd be churning out Primaris rather than Firstborn.

 

The old ways are steeped in superstition, armour and vehicle creation have always been a slow process with a lot of the technological understanding lost to time. Where as now you have Torchbearer fleets rocking up to existing Chapters and saying "I know you are getting owned at the moment but here are a ton of ready made superior soldiers to replenish your losses, don't worry we cleaned up the geneseed and all organs are intact with a couple of extras thrown in, here are the vehicles they will need, here is the process to make more and here is the process to make your existing troops into them." 

 

As much as it pains me to say so from a credibility standpoint, taking into account the current circumstances, it wouldn't make sense logistically or tactically to make more of the old guys. They're being handed ready made armies and the means to make them, so unless the process is more material demanding or far more complicated then why bother making the old ones?

 

Having said that I like to think there are a few Chapters on the naughty list having refused the gift from the Custodes and continue using the old ways.

[Karhedron]

That's a fluff discussion that is fairly interesting. Do Firstborn still get created alongside Primaris? What reason does GW give for this?

Most Chapters have 1000 sets of firstborn wargear and genseed (both of which are venerated in their own way). They are not going to simply throw the sacred geneseed of their primarch in the bin simply because Guilliman has brought them a fresh batch.

[Ishagu]

 

That's a fluff discussion that is fairly interesting. Do Firstborn still get created alongside Primaris? What reason does GW give for this?

Most Chapters have 1000 sets of firstborn wargear and genseed (both of which are venerated in their own way). They are not going to simply throw the sacred geneseed of their primarch in the bin simply because Guilliman has brought them a fresh batch.

Warriors also want to perform at their best and use the best wargear possible.

[Blurf]

Another thread had an argument about what was better aggressors or terminators?

Both people went back and forth, one criticism of the aggressors was that you have to use strats and thus spend CP to make them perform like terminators in some situations.

 

This got me to thinking, primaris and their datasheets were designed specifically with stratagems in mind, where as firstborn were not.

 

CP is a core part of the game, and trying to rewrite the rules and datasheets of beloved firstborn units would cause issues among the player base, and just add extra headaches for the game designers.

 

So can you fairly compare units intended to use stratagems with units not intended for stratagems without factoring them in?

Half of all primaris datasheets were written before the first codex. Every unit in the book was written with stratagems in mind. The core conceit of this question isn't true.

[Lucerne]

 

 

That's a fluff discussion that is fairly interesting. Do Firstborn still get created alongside Primaris? What reason does GW give for this?

Most Chapters have 1000 sets of firstborn wargear and genseed (both of which are venerated in their own way). They are not going to simply throw the sacred geneseed of their primarch in the bin simply because Guilliman has brought them a fresh batch.

Warriors also want to perform at their best and use the best wargear possible.

 

So not the Primaris wargear, then.

[Blindhamster]

 

 

 

That's a fluff discussion that is fairly interesting. Do Firstborn still get created alongside Primaris? What reason does GW give for this?

Most Chapters have 1000 sets of firstborn wargear and genseed (both of which are venerated in their own way). They are not going to simply throw the sacred geneseed of their primarch in the bin simply because Guilliman has brought them a fresh batch.

Warriors also want to perform at their best and use the best wargear possible.

 

So not the Primaris wargear, then.

 

Bolt rifles are better than bolt guns, kind of an unarguable fact. The plasma incinerators are better than regular plasma guns. The fancy new melta guns are better than regular ones.

 

Mk X armour is in lore better than prior mks of armour, obviously on the tabletop it is identical - this is because the difference isn't large enough to justify a mechanical difference at the very small range of variance that 40k works on.

 

Note:

This isn't me saying "I hate firstborn" I don't.

[Ishagu]

@Lucerne

 

Maybe you should read the lore and not simply dismiss anything new without understanding it.

 

That's some real advice if you want to form a valid opinion on things.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

 

 

 

 

That's a fluff discussion that is fairly interesting. Do Firstborn still get created alongside Primaris? What reason does GW give for this?

Most Chapters have 1000 sets of firstborn wargear and genseed (both of which are venerated in their own way). They are not going to simply throw the sacred geneseed of their primarch in the bin simply because Guilliman has brought them a fresh batch.

Warriors also want to perform at their best and use the best wargear possible.

So not the Primaris wargear, then.

Bolt rifles are better than bolt guns, kind of an unarguable fact. The plasma incinerators are better than regular plasma guns. The fancy new melta guns are better than regular ones.

 

Mk X armour is in lore better than prior mks of armour, obviously on the tabletop it is identical - this is because the difference isn't large enough to justify a mechanical difference at the very small range of variance that 40k works on.

 

Note:

This isn't me saying "I hate firstborn" I don't.

my only beef with primaris is the mono role units they get, and lack of options.

 

However it can be argued that firstborn gear in general is better than primaris.

 

For example, I'd argue sternguard have better weapons options than heavy intercessors. But I guess not really an apples to apples comparison. Firstborn vets get way better gear than primaris vets get for the most part at least.

[Blindhamster]

 

 

 

 

 

That's a fluff discussion that is fairly interesting. Do Firstborn still get created alongside Primaris? What reason does GW give for this?

Most Chapters have 1000 sets of firstborn wargear and genseed (both of which are venerated in their own way). They are not going to simply throw the sacred geneseed of their primarch in the bin simply because Guilliman has brought them a fresh batch.

Warriors also want to perform at their best and use the best wargear possible.

So not the Primaris wargear, then.

Bolt rifles are better than bolt guns, kind of an unarguable fact. The plasma incinerators are better than regular plasma guns. The fancy new melta guns are better than regular ones.

 

Mk X armour is in lore better than prior mks of armour, obviously on the tabletop it is identical - this is because the difference isn't large enough to justify a mechanical difference at the very small range of variance that 40k works on.

 

Note:

This isn't me saying "I hate firstborn" I don't.

my only beef with primaris is the mono role units they get, and lack of options.

 

However it can be argued that firstborn gear in general is better than primaris.

 

For example, I'd argue sternguard have better weapons options than heavy intercessors. But I guess not really an apples to apples comparison. Firstborn vets get way better gear than primaris vets get for the most part at least.

 

At the moment, the only true veteran unit we have for primaris are bladeguard - their gear is pretty on point IMO.

Veteran intercessors are a joke, created to placate people and not well handled. Really they should at least have had "special issue bolt rifles" with increased damage and maybe range in the same way special issue bolt guns compare to regular ones.

 

But anyway, the point was being made from an in-lore perspective and actively noting that the tabletop side of things is kinda wishy washy. But from a tabletop perspective yeah 100% firstborn veterans are generally better than primaris anything (including veterans, although bladeguard again, hold their own)

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I have to disagree in regards to veteran Intercessors - a sergeant swinging a master crafted thunder hammer can easily one shot most any character in the game. Mine recently slew a GUO and Typhus.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I have to disagree in regards to veteran Intercessors - a sergeant swinging a master crafted thunder hammer can easily one shot most any character in the game. Mine recently slew a GUO and Typhus.

and every veteran unit of firstborn can have a TH with better ranged options, and some can have more than one TH. And the veteran Intercessors are exactly the same as normal Intercessors they just have 1 more attack per model. Is that really worth 3ppm more?

Thus Intercessor veterans kinda suck as a unit overall.

Edited June 15, 2021 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

One more attack that inflicts flat four damage is well worth it… two wounds that get through can drop most characters. Also Primaris in general have much better stratagem support such as Transhuman.

Edited June 15, 2021 by Black Blow Fly

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

One more attack that inflicts flat four damage is well worth it… two wounds that get through can drop most characters. Also Primaris in general have much better stratagem support such as Transhuman.

TH inflicts flat 3 damage, if it hits, or did a I miss a FAQ?

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

He used the master crafted strat to get it up to four.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

He used the master crafted strat to get it up to four.

...ya that seems like a lot investment to make a bad unit sort of ok.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Not really imo. You can’t target the sergeant. Plus you can never fill all the elite slots.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Not really imo. You can’t target the sergeant. Plus you can never fill all the elite slots.

maybe it's just being a BA player, but I don't seem to ever have enough elite slots available, so ya, I'd rather a lot of other units than Intercessors with1 extra attack.