What can be done about Reivers?

[Captain Idaho]

Well I wouldn't want to get rid of anything they currently have of course but perhaps double down on the assassin aspect - when firing at characters they get +1 to hit and wound. Maybe add the damage 2 pistols thing but then you'd never take the Carbines?

 

Not sure on that part really.

[DantesRevenge]

I personally wouldn't want to go too crazy with the buffs, think they probably need some tweaks to make them more desirable. Concealed position and maybe some auto-wounding with knives at ap-2 on a 6? Knives given +1 attack as well to help with he chances.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Well I wouldn't want to get rid of anything they currently have of course but perhaps double down on the assassin aspect - when firing at characters they get +1 to hit and wound. Maybe add the damage 2 pistols thing but then you'd never take the Carbines?

 

Not sure on that part really.

Maybe give the knives +1 damage if the charge, and the carbines +1 damage against characters.

 

I really believe they need some sort of upgrade, to help set them apart though conditional buffs are really hard to balance.

 

I really think a Phobos upgrade sprue with the helix gauntlet (the infiltrator box doesn't have one), an upgrade for reivers, and some cool bits would help immensely. Heck a sprue that let you give them lightning claws wouldn't break the unit.

[Madmark666]

I'd like a change to their core rules as opposed to a buff to the weapons so as not to make one loadout dramatically better than the other. Something like exploding 6's from all attacks, or maybe if they deal a wound to a unit in shooting or melee that unit suffers the -2 ld like their aura ability causes on top of regular losses.

 

I've personally found the ability to drop them right on objectives pretty useful, they aren't killing loads of stuff but overall they're not nearly the hot garbage they were in 8th ed due to the change in missions.

Edited June 9, 2021 by Madmark666

[painting.for.my.sanity]

I wonder if the way to represent their terror tactics is not by morale debuffs at all, and to accept they aren't are damage dealer, and to instead go down the Callidus Assassin route - imagine something like Reign of Confusion with the D6 roll to trigger it getting easier that larger the squad of them is.

[Djangomatic82]

I wonder if the way to represent their terror tactics is not by morale debuffs at all, and to accept they aren't are damage dealer, and to instead go down the Callidus Assassin route - imagine something like Reign of Confusion with the D6 roll to trigger it getting easier that larger the squad of them is.

This tends to be my view. We have a lot of damage dealers already and the bar is too high for a basic unit like this. Ishagu's idea of them being untargetable is good, but that isnt a role for them, per se. What are they supposed to be doing that they need to be untargetable. Not dealing damage. Playing to the missions? How would you make a rule to portray that in an effective manner? Maybe something that interacts with each missions unique secondary objective objective? Either making it easier to complete each mission or when awarding points for the map specific one, if it was done by a reiver squad, add 1 additional victory point per successful completion. Maybe double points per successful completion of secondary objectives, so you are not penalized for leaving them in reserves while you hopefully thin or mitigate your opponents ability to counter them. the point is, think outside the box.

Edited June 9, 2021 by Djangomatic82

[Captain Idaho]

I wonder if the way to represent their terror tactics is not by morale debuffs at all, and to accept they aren't are damage dealer, and to instead go down the Callidus Assassin route - imagine something like Reign of Confusion with the D6 roll to trigger it getting easier that larger the squad of them is.

Yeah, like inflicting a -1 to hit to a unit that lost a model to them to represent their disruption.

[Ishagu]

I agree improving their damage should not be a priority. Marines have plenty of units that deal damage.

 

They need different, unique rules and abilities not found elsewhere in the army, and that are sufficiently impactful.

[BrainFireBob]

Units have to pass a leadership check on 3d6 pick the highest or have "fights last" on a turn reivers charged.

[MegaVolt87]

Units have to pass a leadership check on 3d6 pick the highest or have "fights last" on a turn reivers charged.

 

Or, they could just make units fight last if revivers charge. An elite unit needs good rules. Otherwise maybe they should move to troops because they are such a basic unit. 

[CCE1981]

Thinking of their terror aspect. How about just simply “all enemy units within 6” take a moral test whether they took casualties or not in each morale phase”. High leadership armies aren’t going to care, but lower leadership are going to want to deal with them. There is play in taking fire, units don’t need to kill their points back, they can do a lot disrupting your opponent or forcing your opponent to make a choice.

[TheUnlikelyGamer84]

The space wolves hounds are morkai are a better example of what reivers could be. Although they are meant for targeting psyker. They can target psykers ignoring look out sir, and have +1 to hit and damage them.

[Vermintide]

I have lamented the state of Reivers all too often. Coolest models, worst rules. I solved that problem by just making them into my death company instead

 

The problem is not just that they are costed badly or have a weird stat-line, like a lot of other units that could be fixed with a CA update; it's more fundamentally that they are an almost totally redundant datasheet. When they occupy an Elite slot that's already over-crowded, and the scout role is performed by very similar (arguably better) troops choices, it's really hard to get a grip on why you'd use them. Even with a shut down ObSec rule, they'd still be pretty niche.

 

My proposal is that they should in fact be a loadout choice for a more generalised "Phobos Intercessor" datasheet, in the Troops slot.

 

You'd choose between Infiltrator, Incursor or Reiver by equipping them with the appropriate gear, and have the gear pointed appropriately. I would straighten out their esoteric special rules (terror troops etc) to be paid-for upgrades, and make their weapons AP-0/shorter range equivalents of their bigger brother's chainswords and bolt rifles. Just in general, make them a more coherent "light infantry" equivalent to regular Mk.X Intercessors, which would be differentiated by having the AP-1 and better range on their weapons, but lacking the deep strike/infiltrate capability and specialist abilities.

 

(While we're at it I'd combine Assault Intercessors datasheet with regular Intercessors too. And all the variations of Captain/Leitenants etc. There's really no reason for most of this stuff to be a separate entry.)

[Djangomatic82]

Unfortunately, as long as there are molds for the seperate units,GW won't combine the data sheets. Once those wear out and if they decide to not replace them, or opt in to make a seperate sprue mold for options to add to he box,they won't make the effort.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

A lot of the frustration with Reivers seems to come from the fact that they take up an elite slot without the rules to match. So maybe the solution should be making them a troop choice? They'd be tied for the cheapest option without upgrades, but could provide outflank or deep strike from the troop slot. Which would probably carve out a decent niche for them as action units. It would also make their terror troops stratagem make sense, right now it has a chance of disrupting an action, and takes away objective secured... which isn't much for 2 CPs. If they had objective secured you could use it to prevent them from scoring an objective. It would be strong but I don't think it would make them our best troop just a nice specialized option.

 

I also have to admit I find it funny that an elite unit has both a terror troop rule, and a stratagem with the same name. Its like someone at GW is like "these really need to be troops". 

[Captain Idaho]

The problem with Reivers as Troops is they eliminate the need for Incursors. Honestly, GW went a little overboard with Phobos, likely to deliver on the promised concept of MkX, Gravis and Phobos as the 3 parts of the Primaris line.

 

5 years ago, if someone suggested introducing Reivers, Incursors AND Infiltrators in the home grown section on this forum we'd have seen people say we don't need at least one of them, likely 2.

 

Still, we have what we have now.

 

So the real question now is should we go Terror Troops or evolve their concept to be assassination and disruption?

 

I lean towards an evolved, changed concept. What Marines aren't terror troops and really the rules don't work well with Morale in this edition at all anyway.

[TheNewman]

I think there are a few minor tweaks that would help them without them becoming broken, but it would probably take more than one of the changes to make them competitive.

 

Movement Changes:

• Increase their Move to 8 so they're more mobile, allowing them to interfere with objective holders more and use their Ld Debuff more.

Shooting Changes:

• Give the entire squad access to the Astartes Grenade Launcher that Intercessors have AND allow them ALL to fire grenades in the same turn either as a Unit Ability or a copy of the Grenadiers Stratagem that Imperial Guard get.
• Make their Carbines Assault 3 like the Intercessor Assault Bolt Rifle

Melee Changes:

• Give the Combat Blade a point of AP so it matches with the Atartes Chainsword.

Loadout Changes:

• Include the Grav-Chute AND the Grapnel Launchers in the base points cost, neither are hugely effective but BOTH could be handy.
• Include the Carbine, Pistol AND Combat Blade in the points cost.
• Give the Sergeant the option to take a Power Sword at 5 points.
• Give the Sergeant the option to take the Instigator Bolt Rifle (as per Eliminator Sergeant) along with the Covering Fire rule for 5 points.

If you made all/most of those changes and made them 20ppm they'd probably be a "non-bad" choice for an Elites Slot.

 

Make them a genuinely versatile (not necessarily deadly) harassment and disruption unit.

 

Rik

I like most of those ideas.

 

Carbides, heavy pistols, stun grenades, shutes, grapnels, a 'power knife' that's maybe Ap -1, +1A and reroll 1s to wound, and an extra 2" movement. That's a unit that belongs in the Elite slot.

[Lord_Ikka]

If we're going to have them as an Elites choice, they should have both the points cost and the abilities of an Elite unit. Aside from Souts (which was obviously just a way to get around using them as a low-cost Troop tax unit), all the Elites choices tend to be very specialized and have abilities that emphasize that specialization. So up the points, up the abilities/weaponry, and make them the uber-ninjas that the fluff shows them to be. Maybe take some of the ideas/thoughts that the Imperial Assassins have and apply it there?

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

The problem with Reivers as Troops is they eliminate the need for Incursors. Honestly, GW went a little overboard with Phobos, likely to deliver on the promised concept of MkX, Gravis and Phobos as the 3 parts of the Primaris line.

 

5 years ago, if someone suggested introducing Reivers, Incursors AND Infiltrators in the home grown section on this forum we'd have seen people say we don't need at least one of them, likely 2.

 

Still, we have what we have now.

 

So the real question now is should we go Terror Troops or evolve their concept to be assassination and disruption?

 

I lean towards an evolved, changed concept. What Marines aren't terror troops and really the rules don't work well with Morale in this edition at all anyway.

I don't know if they eliminate incursors though. There is a big difference between outflank/deep strike and concealed positions. Granted I just use primaris now so I'm used to a lot of overlap.

 

If they stay in elites and don't gain new war gear then their rules should change to work more like the Hounds of Morkai without the psychic defense stuff. Just change hunters beyond death to characters instead of psykers. Then wolves would have a more specialized version of reivers that are only good against psykers and the marine reivers would be great vs characters.

 

My preference would be adding a new sprue, I would give the entire squad the option to take lightning claws. It would give primaris an alternative elite close combat unit to bladeguard that would be distinct.

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah I prefer them go be character assassins. Maybe give them an ability to inflict -1 to hit on units to represent behind the lines disruption, as well.

[Vermintide]

If they are to stay as Elites, I would say the only real way to salvage them is to really make them the surgical strike guerrillas of the Primaris range. Change up their rules so instead of leadership they cause always fights last, change up their overwatch grenade so it causes a unit to be pinned, something like that. Give them access to wargear and maybe give their bolters Rapid Fire 2 and a "can be fired even if the unit advanced" rule. People are generally saying they don't need their killing power boosted, but I would disagree- They don't need to be Vanguard Vets, but if they are going to be an elite deep striker, they need to pack a sting. They need to actually be able to disrupt your opponent's plans.

 

My other thought is to tilt them towards fast attack instead. They might be the closest Primaris equivalent to firstborn Assault Marines, and that's still one of the gaps in the line-up that we haven't seen anything fit into yet. I do have a suspicion we will see a unit released in future that will make the Assault Intercessor look as redundant as Reivers do now. Which just brings me back around to my original premise, ultimately. I think this problem exists across the Marine line because of the insistence on making Primaris units into seperate datasheets and distinct kits which, in older editions, would have been load-out choices for a single unit.

[Rik Lightstar]

Other than my previous suggestions, which were pretty much basic tweaks to make them "a utility unit, capable of threatening any target but not hyper efficient".

 

My other thought would be to go down the route of making them a true assassination unit as people have been suggesting.

• I still think they'd need to have full access to their current equipment as standard, Chutes, Grapnels, Carbines, Pistols and Knives all as base gear.
• Weapon options on the Sergeant are also mandatory to make them a non-bad option for an elite choice, maybe not Fists and Hammers but definitely Power Sword/Axe/Maul and Plasma Pistols at the minimum.

On top of these, some ideas for rules focused on taking out or "limiting" opposing Characters, obviously not ALL of these suggestions on the unit at the same time:

• Ability to target Character models freely with shooting attacks
• A flat +1 to hit and/or wound against Characters
• Exploding or Mortal Wound 6s on Hits against Characters
• Shut down Aura Abilities when in melee against Characters
• Increase of +1 to Command Point Costs for Stratagems when within 6" of the enemy Warlord
• Command Point bonus for owner or penalty for the opponent if Reivers take out an enemy Character
• Allow them to withdraw from combat and still charge Characters on the same turn
• Enemy Characters can't use Heroic Interventions against them

My preferred choices would be the ones that impact Abilities and Stratagems, they're meant to be a disruption unit that focuses on the Chain of Command. As an opponent you'd simply NOT be able to ignore them as they'd have negative effects on how you want to play.

 

If their gear got too good then they'd be treading on the toes of either Sternguard or Vanguard Veterans

 

Rik

[Captain Idaho]

That's interesting. I'd be more generous, like if they're within 18" of the enemy Warlord then Strategic Ploy Strategums cost +1.

 

That's fairly balanced as other Strategums are unaffected yet provides something quite nice to an army that is unique.

 

I'd say this alone would make them worthwhile plus how they are now at 18pts.

[dice4thedicegod]

Yeah, rather than killy, I’d prefer a distraction.

 

Either/or/and

 

- stratagems cost 1 extra if within x”

- actions can’t be performed if within x”

- obsec disabled if within x”

 

Needn’t even be an always on ability. Just bring out a stratagem that says pick one of the above!

Edited June 11, 2021 by dice4thedicegod

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Yeah, rather than killy, I’d prefer a distraction.

 

Either/or/and

 

- stratagems cost 1 extra if within x”

- actions can’t be performed if within x”

- obsec disabled if within x”

 

Needn’t even be an always on ability. Just bring out a stratagem that says pick one of the above!

They already have a stratagem that takes away obsec, and gives you a chance to prevent units from doing actions. That said distraction units are really hard to make compelling. Swooping hawks have always been one of my favorite units but for the most part have just been bad.

 

It's worth pointing out that their minimum cost is 18 but your almost always going to pay a bit more for either out flank or deep strike. If you moved them more towards disruption they may need to take both.

 

One possibility would be tying their role to weapon choice. So make the pistol and knife variant work like hounds of Morkai, and have the carbine tied to disruption abilities. For example if the whole squad shot at a unit they can't overwatch, or use strategic ploy stratagems.