What can be done about Reivers?

[jarms48]

I think there are a few minor tweaks that would help them without them becoming broken, but it would probably take more than one of the changes to make them competitive.

 

Movement Changes:

• Increase their Move to 8 so they're more mobile, allowing them to interfere with objective holders more and use their Ld Debuff more.

Shooting Changes:

• Give the entire squad access to the Astartes Grenade Launcher that Intercessors have AND allow them ALL to fire grenades in the same turn either as a Unit Ability or a copy of the Grenadiers Stratagem that Imperial Guard get.
• Make their Carbines Assault 3 like the Intercessor Assault Bolt Rifle

Melee Changes:

• Give the Combat Blade a point of AP so it matches with the Atartes Chainsword.

Loadout Changes:

• Include the Grav-Chute AND the Grapnel Launchers in the base points cost, neither are hugely effective but BOTH could be handy.
• Include the Carbine, Pistol AND Combat Blade in the points cost.
• Give the Sergeant the option to take a Power Sword at 5 points.
• Give the Sergeant the option to take the Instigator Bolt Rifle (as per Eliminator Sergeant) along with the Covering Fire rule for 5 points.

If you made all/most of those changes and made them 20ppm they'd probably be a "non-bad" choice for an Elites Slot.

 

Make them a genuinely versatile (not necessarily deadly) harassment and disruption unit.

 

Rik

 

I agree with most of these, perhaps not all. The only change I'd probably make is still keep the grav-chutes as an upgrade, but definitely include the grapples into the base cost. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I think there are a few minor tweaks that would help them without them becoming broken, but it would probably take more than one of the changes to make them competitive.

 

Movement Changes:

• Increase their Move to 8 so they're more mobile, allowing them to interfere with objective holders more and use their Ld Debuff more.

Shooting Changes:

• Give the entire squad access to the Astartes Grenade Launcher that Intercessors have AND allow them ALL to fire grenades in the same turn either as a Unit Ability or a copy of the Grenadiers Stratagem that Imperial Guard get.
• Make their Carbines Assault 3 like the Intercessor Assault Bolt Rifle

Melee Changes:

• Give the Combat Blade a point of AP so it matches with the Atartes Chainsword.

Loadout Changes:

• Include the Grav-Chute AND the Grapnel Launchers in the base points cost, neither are hugely effective but BOTH could be handy.
• Include the Carbine, Pistol AND Combat Blade in the points cost.
• Give the Sergeant the option to take a Power Sword at 5 points.
• Give the Sergeant the option to take the Instigator Bolt Rifle (as per Eliminator Sergeant) along with the Covering Fire rule for 5 points.

If you made all/most of those changes and made them 20ppm they'd probably be a "non-bad" choice for an Elites Slot.

 

Make them a genuinely versatile (not necessarily deadly) harassment and disruption unit.

 

Rik

if they all have grenade launchers they can all fire them, it's not a 'grenade' weapon so they could fire their rifles and launchers.

[Mandragola]

I think the fluff behind Reivers could also do with a bit of attention. It's not really clear how "normal" marines are sometimes asked to put on halloween costumes and go around frightening people. It's never made sense to me that people like Ultramarines or Imperial Fists would do that. 

 

Instead, maybe they should say these guys are some sort of accidental result of the Primaris process going a bit wrong. Sometimes they lose a bit too much of their humanity in the transformation and become really nasty pieces of work as a result. This would then explain why every chapter had them. You could potentially have the inquisitioon looking into it and have people like Guilliman trying to find a cure... while perhaps less scrupulous chapters looked for ways to make it happen more often.

 

So part of the result of this might be to give GW the freedom to muck about with their profile. Let their knives inflict MWs on a 6 to hit (or maybe to wound). Let them ignore Look Out Sir. Maybe have some rule affecting nearby enemies if they destroy units in melee, to reflect the horrible way they do it (though maybe not, horrible things in melee would be common in 40k).

[Rik Lightstar]

I think the fluff behind Reivers could also do with a bit of attention. It's not really clear how "normal" marines are sometimes asked to put on halloween costumes and go around frightening people. It's never made sense to me that people like Ultramarines or Imperial Fists would do that. 

 

Instead, maybe they should say these guys are some sort of accidental result of the Primaris process going a bit wrong. Sometimes they lose a bit too much of their humanity in the transformation and become really nasty pieces of work as a result. This would then explain why every chapter had them. You could potentially have the inquisitioon looking into it and have people like Guilliman trying to find a cure... while perhaps less scrupulous chapters looked for ways to make it happen more often.

 

So part of the result of this might be to give GW the freedom to muck about with their profile. Let their knives inflict MWs on a 6 to hit (or maybe to wound). Let them ignore Look Out Sir. Maybe have some rule affecting nearby enemies if they destroy units in melee, to reflect the horrible way they do it (though maybe not, horrible things in melee would be common in 40k).

 

 

Not sure what the complaint is here. Since when are Marines of any variety supposed to be "all round nice chaps"?

 

ALL Marines are definitively "Shock Troops", they specialise in hitting the enemy as hard, fast, brutally and messily as possible. Their entire premise is to cause as much physical and psychological damage to the enemy in the shortest time possible. Their "standard" armaments of BOLTER and CHAINSWORD are specifically chosen for the fact that they make a huge amount of mess.

 

Yes SOME Chapters of Marines are portrayed as being "honourable" in their actions towards each other and towards the "innocent" citizenry of the Imperium. BUT, if a Marine or their officer decides that someone is an obstacle (not even a threat) to their current mission or objective they'll remove it swiftly and messily.

 

They're a pragmatic and brutal tool for the job of conquering the Galaxy and have subsequently been left guarding it.

 

The Ultramarines and Imperial Fists as much as, if not more than, any among the loyal Primogenitor Chapters are practical and will use any and all available tools to get the job done in the most efficient way possible.

 

Rik

[Mandragola]

 

I think the fluff behind Reivers could also do with a bit of attention. It's not really clear how "normal" marines are sometimes asked to put on halloween costumes and go around frightening people. It's never made sense to me that people like Ultramarines or Imperial Fists would do that. 

 

Instead, maybe they should say these guys are some sort of accidental result of the Primaris process going a bit wrong. Sometimes they lose a bit too much of their humanity in the transformation and become really nasty pieces of work as a result. This would then explain why every chapter had them. You could potentially have the inquisitioon looking into it and have people like Guilliman trying to find a cure... while perhaps less scrupulous chapters looked for ways to make it happen more often.

 

So part of the result of this might be to give GW the freedom to muck about with their profile. Let their knives inflict MWs on a 6 to hit (or maybe to wound). Let them ignore Look Out Sir. Maybe have some rule affecting nearby enemies if they destroy units in melee, to reflect the horrible way they do it (though maybe not, horrible things in melee would be common in 40k).

 

 

Not sure what the complaint is here. Since when are Marines of any variety supposed to be "all round nice chaps"?

 

ALL Marines are definitively "Shock Troops", they specialise in hitting the enemy as hard, fast, brutally and messily as possible. Their entire premise is to cause as much physical and psychological damage to the enemy in the shortest time possible. Their "standard" armaments of BOLTER and CHAINSWORD are specifically chosen for the fact that they make a huge amount of mess.

 

Yes SOME Chapters of Marines are portrayed as being "honourable" in their actions towards each other and towards the "innocent" citizenry of the Imperium. BUT, if a Marine or their officer decides that someone is an obstacle (not even a threat) to their current mission or objective they'll remove it swiftly and messily.

 

They're a pragmatic and brutal tool for the job of conquering the Galaxy and have subsequently been left guarding it.

 

The Ultramarines and Imperial Fists as much as, if not more than, any among the loyal Primogenitor Chapters are practical and will use any and all available tools to get the job done in the most efficient way possible.

 

Rik

 

All of that is true, but it results in a problem: what exactly is so different about Reivers? This has always been my complaint. You take an 8' tall super soldier in power armour, armed with a gun that fires explosive rounds. Putting this guy in a different hat and giving him somewhat less dangerous weapons (though at this point it's kind of academic) does not make him more scary, because he's already extremely scary.

 

Reivers need a reason to exist when there are already incursors, infiltrators, eliminators and intercessors. Right now they can't do anything better than any of those guys. We end up with "cheap, badly-equipped Primaris guys" as an elites choice. That's rubbish.

 

So my idea is to make up a reason why they're there. That can then inform what their rules ought to be. So long as they're just a normal guy in a silly hat with bad equipment they'll continue to be useless.

[Dracos]

I'm amused and appalled by the suggestion Reivers become better assassins. The suggestions that they gain +1 to hit and wound characters would just be another (one of many) slap in the face to the Raven Guard supplement. In small bites over the past year that supplement has lost almost anything that made RG special. Truly frustrated with the fact Raven Guard are the best Chapter for Gravis units (which I love) and about the worst to benefit Phobos.

 

The +1 damage idea was interesting and considering that -1 damage has been a popular defensive buff is worth looking at. The exploding "6"s not a good idea imo because it would conflict with Whirlwind of Rage. Wishlisting is great but we need to watch where it overlaps with conflicting rules or make (as mentioned above) other rules redundant.

 

Best thoughts I have heard is just shifting them to Troops. Leave Concealed Positions to Infiltrators/Incursors. Reiver as paratroopers works for me. Also given the current rule system a -1ap on the carbine and combat knives would be a nice bump. A Troop (ObSec) choice that deep strikes, turns off ObSec and can tear up tee shirt saves ... I can make that work (as a 4th Troop choice)

[War of the Eagle]

I agree with the more movement. I kinda think +1 to normal move advances and charges would be nice. And +1 attack to base profile would help. And Srg getting some more weapon options.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I'm amused and appalled by the suggestion Reivers become better assassins. The suggestions that they gain +1 to hit and wound characters would just be another (one of many) slap in the face to the Raven Guard supplement. In small bites over the past year that supplement has lost almost anything that made RG special. Truly frustrated with the fact Raven Guard are the best Chapter for Gravis units (which I love) and about the worst to benefit Phobos.

 

The +1 damage idea was interesting and considering that -1 damage has been a popular defensive buff is worth looking at. The exploding "6"s not a good idea imo because it would conflict with Whirlwind of Rage. Wishlisting is great but we need to watch where it overlaps with conflicting rules or make (as mentioned above) other rules redundant.

 

Best thoughts I have heard is just shifting them to Troops. Leave Concealed Positions to Infiltrators/Incursors. Reiver as paratroopers works for me. Also given the current rule system a -1ap on the carbine and combat knives would be a nice bump. A Troop (ObSec) choice that deep strikes, turns off ObSec and can tear up tee shirt saves ... I can make that work (as a 4th Troop choice)

 

To your first point some of the supplements have aged well, and most have not. I don't think changes that conflict with books that need a refresh should be off limits, and the Raven Guard book is at worst tied with Imperial Fists for the supplement that needs to be redone the most. In my opinion its clearly the worst supplement because even when it was good it was still the best choice for Gravis and Assault Centurions.... which is a fail in my book.

 

That said even though I've suggested modeling them after Hounds of Morkai rules wise, I would prefer either adding an extra sprue or making them a troop choice. Their equipment just lets them down a lot, and making them worthwhile with special rules is really tough. If you could give every model in the squad a lightning claw, and the grav chutes/grappling hook for around 25 points apiece I think they would be fine as an elite. With their current war gear they just make more sense as a specialist troop that you take a squad of as part of a plan for secondary objectives. Which is a much better place than they are in now.

[Guest Triszin]

Turn them into "anti aura" character killers?

 

 

*Insert spooky name*: enemy core models within 3" do not gain the benefit of allied aura abilities

[Captain Idaho]

I might have to float something that folk might find unpopular... maybe Infiltrators, Reivers and Incursors need to be a single unit with multiple options. The amount of cross over and undermining is a little silly and something I didn't think the design team would countenance usually.

 

Do Reivers need to exist as a unit when they're potentially a variant of those units. Say the unit is "Infiltrators" and they can be equipped one of 3 ways but all keep the Infiltrators rules.

 

Something like that.

 

It's mildly amusing that folk initially hailed Primaris for reducing bloat of the Marine forces, anticipating many Firstborn options eventually disappearing, but now Primaris have caused massive bloat, duplicating and obsolescence only a few years down the line.

 

GW messed up somewhere here I feel. (But then I don't like that we have 2 Predator datasheets, 3 Land Raiders, 3 Land Speeders etc)

Edited June 14, 2021 by Captain Idaho

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I might have to float something that folk might find unpopular... maybe Infiltrators, Reivers and Incursors need to be a single unit with multiple options. The amount of cross over and undermining is a little silly and something I didn't think the design team would countenance usually.

 

Do Reivers need to exist as a unit when they're potentially a variant of those units. Say the unit is "Infiltrators" and they can be equipped one of 3 ways but all keep the Infiltrators rules.

 

Something like that.

 

It's mildly amusing that folk initially hailed Primaris for reducing bloat of the Marine forces, anticipating many Firstborn options eventually disappearing, but now Primaris have caused massive bloat, duplicating and obsolescence only a few years down the line.

 

GW messed up somewhere here I feel. (But then I don't like that we have 2 Predator datasheets, 3 Land Raiders, 3 Land Speeders etc)

 

 

I don't know how much space they'd save by consolidating it to one datasheet. I do think the value of Reivers is that they don't have concealed positions so you can have some units start outside your deployment while still having something that can outflank/deep strike without CP.

 

I will say most Primaris players just saw new kits at a scale that fit our head cannon, and wanted them. I know bloat was discussed but I don't think most of us wanted firstborn gone, a separate codex sure because we had a really distinct style in the early days and quite frankly needed help. I think most of the bloat comes from trying to avoid direct replacements and at the same time offer multiple options in the kits (that for the most part other players don't notice lol). Either way with a new HH boxset coming that bloat isn't going anywhere and personally if they can keep it balanced this well I think its awesome.

[Captain Idaho]

Oh I think very few people really want stuff gone. But many of us, myself included, presumed Firstborn would be gone.

 

Regardless, it would be a big datasheet if it directly transfers all abilities and weapons to the just the single. There would have to be consolidation. Like the 3 types of bolters each has, which really don't need to exist just to confuse us over 30s.

 

I guess what I'm saying is Reivers were a design choice that GW failed with and perhaps they need to put them out to pasture?

 

Of course I never want people's models to be useless, hence why I'd like rules consolidation for them so they can still be played.

[Blindhamster]

I think conceptually, Reivers need to be made into proper elites. They're an Elite unit. So If infiltrators and Incursors are troops, Reivers should feel elite compared to them.

- Give them an extra attack on profile each (like any other veteran would have) and an extra point of Ld (again like vets).
- Give them Concealed positions
- Give the Sergeant the option to take melee upgrades
- Slightly increase the range of their Aura
- Make their Carbines Damage 2 (like sternguard)
- Make their Swords AP -1
- Increase their point cost by a couple points

 

 

 

 

Edited June 15, 2021 by Blindhamster

[Captain Idaho]

Damage 2 weapons would definitely make them worthwhile in some manner. (And yes I wish Sternguard had that as well, or at least their Strategum back but that's a different story)

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

I guess what I'm saying is Reivers were a design choice that GW failed with and perhaps they need to put them out to pasture?

 

Of course I never want people's models to be useless, hence why I'd like rules consolidation for them so they can still be played.

 

There's nothing wrong with the design of the models. It's a rules issue. And the better solution is meaningful differentiation, not consolidation.

[Captain Idaho]

Oh I never mentioned the models design. It's the unit itself as a concept. Infiltrators, Incursors and Reivers all operate a niche that really didn't need more than a single unit. It's like having a Scout squad, a Sniper Scout squad and a melee one, only with more complex rules.

 

That boat may have sailed though, so on that basis I'd reiterate my support to make them more dangerous to characters and Strategums etc.

[jaxom]

I think they need to be moved to Fast Attack. Their current rules already include a lot of deployment and movement shenanigans. Keep all that, grapnel launchers remain the same, have grav-chutes add 2" to movement.

 

There's additional stuff that could be done. I don't think Sergeant weapon options are the right direction; it strikes me as too different from the other specialty troops like Aggressors, Inceptors, etc. Theoretically, Reiver weapons should be a match for their role so sergeants shouldn't need a different weapon set. However, their weapon set, while very fluffy (shankin' in the dark, etc), is Space Marine average on the table top. At the same time, this isn't new for Space Marines. They've a long history of leveraging Str 4 and more than one attack against T3. This isn't too bad for dealing with backline artillery crews, heavy weapon teams, etc. Yet, the other backline target, tanks, needs a bit more. Give them the MELTABOMB keyword. 

[Guest Triszin]

I might have to float something that folk might find unpopular... maybe Infiltrators, Reivers and Incursors need to be a single unit with multiple options. The amount of cross over and undermining is a little silly and something I didn't think the design team would countenance usually.

 

Do Reivers need to exist as a unit when they're potentially a variant of those units. Say the unit is "Infiltrators" and they can be equipped one of 3 ways but all keep the Infiltrators rules.

 

Something like that.

 

It's mildly amusing that folk initially hailed Primaris for reducing bloat of the Marine forces, anticipating many Firstborn options eventually disappearing, but now Primaris have caused massive bloat, duplicating and obsolescence only a few years down the line.

 

GW messed up somewhere here I feel. (But then I don't like that we have 2 Predator datasheets, 3 Land Raiders, 3 Land Speeders etc)

Ya, this would make them troop. And free up space.

[Dracos]

I think they need to be moved to Fast Attack. Their current rules already include a lot of deployment and movement shenanigans. Keep all that, grapnel launchers remain the same, have grav-chutes add 2" to movement.

 

 

While I totally understand where the idea of moving Reivers to Fast Attack comes from .... doing so would make them all but disappear. With only three slots in a Battalion and so many other better choices ahead in the queue, Reivers would never see the light of day on the table top.

[jaxom]

 

I think they need to be moved to Fast Attack. Their current rules already include a lot of deployment and movement shenanigans. Keep all that, grapnel launchers remain the same, have grav-chutes add 2" to movement.

 

 

While I totally understand where the idea of moving Reivers to Fast Attack comes from .... doing so would make them all but disappear. With only three slots in a Battalion and so many other better choices ahead in the queue, Reivers would never see the light of day on the table top.

 

 

Yeah, it's the Vanguard Veteran & Assault Marine issue in that regard.

[SvenIronhand]

Reivers are alright, but they could be better. I think where people stumble is comparing them to Assault Intercessors. Reivers are not shock assault units. They are backfield bullies and harassers. Drop them down in your enemy’s rear with grav chutes, and they can target vulnerable backfield shooting units.

 

Shock and Awe can make life really hard for these targets. And Terror Troops makes it so that they can steal objectives. As for changes, here’s what I’d do.

 

-AP on the knives.

-Maybe make it so they can advance and charge.

[macradam_hue]

Make them troops, make chutes and grapnels included in base price - and an inbuilt -1 to hit. Keep the current strats. That would be a bit closer to the lore Rievers that I’d love to play Edited July 10, 2021 by AdRoc

[L30n1d4s]

I'd say not Troops (or Elites, for that matter)... make them Fast Attack and play up their mobility, vis-a-vis the other Primaris options.

 

Specifically, give them their Grav chutes and Grappling hooks for free, give them the Concealed Positions rule, and give them a "built-in" +2" to their Advance and Charge rolls.

 

This provides them the mobility to do their role (i.e harassment/disruption/terror commandos) while giving them something unique from other Primaris, but not overpowered or "auto-take" good.

 

Think about it, if they could DS or pre-game Infiltrate for free, then have access to +2" charge (or advance, as necessary) without any outside buffs/support, then they would be free to backfield harass your opponent while the rest of your army works on everything else... being only 18 points a model, this would make them useful and something your opponent can't just ignore, but at a price tag that doesn't cripple the rest of your force.

Edited July 10, 2021 by L30n1d4s

[Rikev]

I play crusade at 25pl so my Reivers have to pull their weight a bit more. I find their ability to switch off Overwatch on units you would be scared to charge to be useful.

 

My last game my opponent deployed Immortals too close to the front of his deployment zone. The Reivers deployed forwards with their infiltrate ability, moved up, threw a stun Grenade at them and proceeded to charge and start stabbing the unit.

 

The unit then focused on retaining the objectives on that side of the board whilst the rest of the force was engaged on the other side. It was my MVP unit (partly because of heroic deeds finishing off a C'Tan I'd been plugging away at all game).

[Lord Raven 19]

What do people think about including the strat as an ability instead?