What can be done about Reivers?

[Captain Idaho]

Definitely not Troops, or you may as well get rid of them or Incursors as they directly compete.

 

I think the problem is Reivers are not good backfield harassment units. They just don't do the job well enough. I once had 10 Reivers turn up in my backfield and I wiped them out after shooting them casually for a turn then absorbing their charge, falling back then finishing them off. It wasn't a problem at all.

[Blindhamster]

Reivers work better with factions like blood angels or white scars that have innate abilities to make them hit harder IMO. I've had reivers do fairly good damage in the past, but its very much down to finessing their deployment and use.

However, they still need a buff IMO.

[SvenIronhand]

Perhaps they can have an innate -1 to hit in melee, to represent the terror of their charge?

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Definitely not Troops, or you may as well get rid of them or Incursors as they directly compete.

 

I think the problem is Reivers are not good backfield harassment units. They just don't do the job well enough. I once had 10 Reivers turn up in my backfield and I wiped them out after shooting them casually for a turn then absorbing their charge, falling back then finishing them off. It wasn't a problem at all.

 

I don't think they directly compete unless Reivers were to gain concealed positions. There are some major differences between how deep strike and concealed position units work.

 

1) Concealed positions is riskier because you don't know the turn order during deployment (this can be mitigated with a warlord trait). Deep striking units can be screened but you know a lot more information but the time they show up.

 

2) Turn 2 scoring, a unit with concealed positions can hold an objective during your turn 2 command phase. A unit in reserves isn't capable of scoring an objective till turn 3. This early scoring pressure is a huge deal, it doesn't stop the unit from being played aggressively but its a strength that needs to be noted.

 

3) A unit using concealed positions has to be 9 inches away from your opponents models & deployment zone. deep striking units have a lot more freedom.

 

I do think the units overlap too much, and I do think Reivers were part of the first wave because GW knew rules wise that they would be in awkward spot.

[lansalt]

As I said in the first page, it's best to read "Blood od Iax" to see what Reivers are. Here is a excerpt of a conversation between Ultramarines Reiver sergeant Severus and Chaplain Kastor:
 

 

‘The masks are not for our benefit but for those we hunt,’ Severus said humourlessly. ‘We are their death made manifest.
Regardless of whether they fight or flee, we will come for them. They must be made to understand that.’
‘Two covers of the same book,’ Kastor said, looking down at his own skull helm, locked to his hip. ‘I am a reminder of
mankind’s mortality, the revelation that all shall stand before the Emperor and be judged, vengefully if need be. You bring that
same lesson to mankind’s enemies.’

Reivers are basically astartes ninja assasins. They are usually given a target to kill, sabotage or kidnap/extract. So, trying to making them harassment or melee units is neither fluffy nor practical with their limited kit weapons. The missing role in SM armies they fulfill is melee character hunters (the opposite of Eliminators).

This is how the Hounds of Morkai already work, so regular Reivers should simply use the same +1 to hit and +1 damage against a character unit (maybe named at the start of the game, or using a stratagem?)

Beyond this, given how they are portrayed in the novel, they absolutely should have Concealed Positions, grapnel launchers as standard, and the optional grav-chute for deep strike. I even would add Hit and Run.

[SvenIronhand]

As I said in the first page, it's best to read "Blood od Iax" to see what Reivers are. Here is a excerpt of a conversation between Ultramarines Reiver sergeant Severus and Chaplain Kastor:

 

 

‘The masks are not for our benefit but for those we hunt,’ Severus said humourlessly. ‘We are their death made manifest.

Regardless of whether they fight or flee, we will come for them. They must be made to understand that.’

‘Two covers of the same book,’ Kastor said, looking down at his own skull helm, locked to his hip. ‘I am a reminder of

mankind’s mortality, the revelation that all shall stand before the Emperor and be judged, vengefully if need be. You bring that

same lesson to mankind’s enemies.’

Reivers are basically astartes ninja assasins. They are usually given a target to kill, sabotage or kidnap/extract. So, trying to making them harassment or melee units is neither fluffy nor practical with their limited kit weapons. The missing role in SM armies they fulfill is melee character hunters (the opposite of Eliminators).

 

This is how the Hounds of Morkai already work, so regular Reivers should simply use the same +1 to hit and +1 damage against a character unit (maybe named at the start of the game, or using a stratagem?)

 

Beyond this, given how they are portrayed in the novel, they absolutely should have Concealed Positions, grapnel launchers as standard, and the optional grav-chute for deep strike. I even would add Hit and Run.

This is wrong. Reivers are quite explicitly terror troops.

 

 

[jaxom]

Perhaps something like: Roll when an enemy unit within 6" would use a strat; on a 4+ the strat cost an additional CP, the controlling player can choose whether pay and use it or not.

[lansalt]

This is wrong. Reivers are quite explicitly terror troops.

 

Reivers, terror troops, astartes ninja assasins, space batmans... all are pretty much the same. Just semantics. The key thing is that Reivers aren't just a generic melee unit against generic weak targets, they are elite commandos given targets.

 

But you are right that they do more than just hunt characters, so maybe they could secretly mark any enemy unit for a kill bonus and/or VP at the start of the game?

 

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

Reivers are alright, but they could be better. I think where people stumble is comparing them to Assault Intercessors. Reivers are not shock assault units. They are backfield bullies and harassers. Drop them down in your enemy’s rear with grav chutes, and they can target vulnerable backfield shooting units.

 

Shock and Awe can make life really hard for these targets. And Terror Troops makes it so that they can steal objectives. As for changes, here’s what I’d do.

 

-AP on the knives.

-Maybe make it so they can advance and charge.

They would still see zero play with these changes because you could just take vanguard vets with chainswords and have a better version.  

 

Probably what needs to happen is that they need to have the terror troops stratagem as a permanent datasheet ability with a 6" radius.  That way they actually bring something unique to the table without costing oodles of command points better spent elsewhere.  Also... ap -1 on all their weapons.  

[Cap'm Heckus]

What about some kind of “Burst from cover” rule letting them advance and charge/shoot. They do that head down, arms back ninja run. It’d be something above what most assault intercessors can do.

[TheNewman]

If it's just "what can these do that would make them worth looking at?" then the right answer is probably "retcon them as Omnis armor with M 12" and fly (basically melee Supressors) and fix the Sergeant's weapon options."

 

As long as they have to compete with VVs making Reivers compelling is just a tough nut to crack.

[Ragnar69]

Coming in from Reserve on T1 could also be a useful and distinctive Feature for Reivers

[Guest Triszin]

Carbine - assault pistol 3

Combat blade, give it ap -1

Give them a anti aura to shut down enemy auras within 6"

Give them character and squad Sargeant sniping abilities?

Edited July 24, 2021 by Triszin

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I'm still disappointed that no mod has renamed this topic "How do you solve a problem like my Reivers."

[Swordsman]

Basically I think that a proper rework should though the following points

 

Skill: 3” obsec denial by default

Equipments: grapple and parachute, by default

Weapons:

Knives: +1 attack and AP

Pistol: 2 shot S5 ap1

Carbine: more like an auto shotgun (like tha A-12) loaded with slugs

12” Assault 3- s5 Ap-2 D2 (3 at half range)

 

The cost scold be abou 19-20ppm ( I assume an intercessor shown be 16-17)

Edited July 24, 2021 by Swordsman

[Jacques Corbin]

Honestly, if they were the saboteurs supreme they are in the lore, they would not need to be more lethal. They need to be able to stop enemy units from completing actions, shut down obsec, cancel overwatch, negate character auras one way or another, and stop enemy units from falling back from melee.

 

I like the grav Grav Chute option. Be nice if they added a feature that essentially lets the Reivers jump down from terrain. Such as, count as being on the ground floor when moving or charging from upper levels of terrain.

 

I really want to see a modified Storm Speeder transport that carries 6 Phobos infantry. That is a squad of 5 and a Lieutenant. Make it a support vehicle as well. NO STUBBERS! Lightly armed, say with a Twin Auto Bolt Rifle up front, and for the Turret a grenade launcher, but one that combines Frag grenades and Smoke Launcher, like the Cerebus Launcher on the Land Speeder Storm, to give an enemy unit hit -1 to BS and WS until the start of your next turn.

 

They are not a removal unit, and not every unit should be. They are an annoying disruption unit, and that is very useful in and of itself.

[Aramis K]

This all feels very familiar from similar issue with Alpha Legion Headhunters in Heresy. But in some ways they end up more like Howling Banshees.

 

Is see them as a surprise unit, that bursts out of shadows, the peak of shock assault.

 

Have to work with the kit options, so no new toys.

Buff the carbine to 18" assault 3 ap-1 and give the blade some AP. Drop the pointless special pistol ammo. Add another attack on charge for super shocking assault, and keep debuff on leadership.

 

I'd lean into the grenades, something that pins or disrupts target unit. Maybe impose -1 to hit for turn or removes charge bonuses or reduces movement.

[Guest Triszin]

Give reivers the instigator bolt carbine?

[brother_b]

Ehhh their guns shouldn’t be better than the intercessor assault bolt option.

 

We need a reason to take these guys, not a reason to take these guys in place of all other options. I think something very specific that might be helpful in game, like removing objective secured, may be the kind of boost these guys need.

 

That’s my opinion as a very new space marine player.

[lansalt]

This all feels very familiar from similar issue with Alpha Legion Headhunters in Heresy. But in some ways they end up more like Howling Banshees.

 

Is see them as a surprise unit, that bursts out of shadows, the peak of shock assault.

 

Have to work with the kit options, so no new toys.

Buff the carbine to 18" assault 3 ap-1 and give the blade some AP. Drop the pointless special pistol ammo. Add another attack on charge for super shocking assault, and keep debuff on leadership.

 

I'd lean into the grenades, something that pins or disrupts target unit. Maybe impose -1 to hit for turn or removes charge bonuses or reduces movement.

 

Agreed. This is how they are in the novels, as I said earlier in the thread.

[9x19 Parabellum]

Basically I think that a proper rework should though the following points

 

Skill: 3” obsec denial by default

Equipments: grapple and parachute, by default

Weapons:

Knives: +1 attack and AP

Pistol: 2 shot S5 ap1

Carbine: more like an auto shotgun (like tha A-12) loaded with slugs

12” Assault 3- s5 Ap-2 D2 (3 at half range)

 

The cost scold be abou 19-20ppm ( I assume an intercessor shown be 16-17)

 

Lol!  Do you offer a free milkshake with that too?

 

Knives at +1 attack and AP is essentially an astartes chainsword

Pistol: 2 shots S5 ap -1 is better than the heavy bolt pistol..like...at least twice as good

Carbine:  12" assault 3, s5, AP-2, D: 2 (3 at half range)....like....what??? Seriously?  That's a single infantry model that can put out 9 wounds. With access to rerolls and combat doctrine bonuses (-3 ap in tactical phase)....this is just completely over the top.

 

and then on top of this all they get deepstrike, move over terrain without penalty, and deny objective secured.

All for the same cost as assault intercessors?

 

No...

[Berzul]

Basically I think that a proper rework should though the following points

 

Skill: 3” obsec denial by default

Equipments: grapple and parachute, by default

Weapons:

Knives: +1 attack and AP

Pistol: 2 shot S5 ap1

Carbine: more like an auto shotgun (like tha A-12) loaded with slugs

12” Assault 3- s5 Ap-2 D2 (3 at half range)

 

The cost scold be abou 19-20ppm ( I assume an intercessor shown be 16-17)

 

Why would one use ANYTHING else besides these guys?

Edited August 27, 2021 by Berzul

[Charlo]

Honestly I think even just having the terror troops stratagem built in would be enough. Being able to surgically turn off actions really fits the MO.

 

Stratagem would increase the range of the aura.

[Swordsman]

]

 

Why would one use ANYTHING else besides these guys?

When dreaming, dare to dream big!

 

Beside jokes, honestly an in built obsec denial ability and a decent pricing may reserve them a place in my lists.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

One thing that may help is adding a charge bonus for the grav chutes and/or grappling hook (+1 charge bonuses that stack). Then maybe give their knives an AP bonus on the charge.

 

For the carbine let them target characters and give them re-rolls to wound the turn they arrive from reserves. 10 shots at str 4 with re-rolls would be pretty good against minor characters but there would be enough counter play to keep it interesting.