What can be done about Reivers?

[TheNewman]

At this point the best thing to do with Reivers is just kit-bash Suppressors out of them, GW is clearly in no hurry to release those in a stand-alone box.

[Guest Triszin]

Could make them into baby eversoors assassin's?

 

 

+2" to charge rolls.

 

Terror tactics: Each time an enemy unit Falls Back whilst within engagement range of this model, before moving any models, this model can shoot as if it were its Shooting phase These attacks must target the unit that is Falling Back, only natural 6's count as hits. Or this model may make 1 additional melee attack.

Edited October 7, 2021 by Triszin

[Mandragola]

Could make them into baby eversoors assassin's?

 

 

+2" to charge rolls.

 

Terror tactics: Each time an enemy unit Falls Back whilst within engagement range of this model, before moving any models, this model can shoot as if it were its Shooting phase These attacks must target the unit that is Falling Back, only natural 6's count as hits. Or this model may make 1 additional melee attack.

I'm not sure anyone would bother falling back from Reivers. If they did though, a few bolter shots hitting on 6s probably wouldn't do much.

 

The problem is their weapons. They have a delivery system (albeit not a reliable one) and a few special rules and strats. They could be useful if they had any means of harming the enemy.

[Jacques Corbin]

See, I keep saying, they are lethal enough. They need to be more disruptive. I would want auras from enemy characters shut down. A mechanic that either prevent units falling back from melee, makes it more difficult to fall back (win a roll off), or costly to (roll a d6 for each model in a unit that falls back from melee, and for each 1 a model flees the battle).

 

Shock grenades being wargear, and not a stratagem would help too. Maybe give them a grenade launcher. I still say shotguns would be fun. And hatchets that are +1S and -1AP but no extra attack. Those will really help now that Orks are T5.

 

The other thing, is how they deploy. You either start them in your DZ, and they are either a scary rear guard, positioned to assault an enemy unit in the midfield, they run up a flank to try and get behind enemy lines, or you throw them in an Impulsor. Or, you get the grapnels to outflank, or the Grav Chutes to deep strike them. Now, imagine if you took both the grapnel AND grav chutes, being able to use the grapnel on a friendly Impulsor, Repulsor, or Storm Speeder, and let them pull you aloft via the grav chutes, and the Reivers move with the vehicle, and are redeployed within 6" of that vehicle, counting as having made a full move. That would be a fun stratagem!

 

And by the Throne, give the Reiver Lieutenant some options!

[Captain Idaho]

I don't think they're lethal enough at all. Everyone who used Reivers against me saw them bounce off targets or just otherwise get shot dead after they boltered some of my units a little.

 

Damage 2 in melee against Troops and characters. Maybe even Heavy Support infantry to simulate their disruption style warfare. And of course I'd give them AP-1 in melee for their blades too, blimey an Assault Marine gets that.

 

For their bolters, against the same targets I'd go for +1 to wound.

 

That would make them genuinely useful and elite enough enough be worthwhile choices. Right now, they're the worst unit in the Codex by a long way.

Edited October 8, 2021 by Captain Idaho

[Guest Triszin]

A. +1 to wound against models with "core" keyword.

 

B. Enemy models within 6" do not gain the benefits of friendly aura abilities.

 

C. I still think bolt carbine could be pistol assault 3

 

D. Upgrade sprue to give them volkite weapons

Edited October 8, 2021 by Triszin

[9x19 Parabellum]

There is so much cool design space left untapped.  Here's a couple ideas I don't think anyone has come up with. Pick two of these special abilities and apply them to reivers (possilby one gear based and one ability based)...you don't need to make them any more deadly-there is a proper gun or melee weapon presently for every possible threat in the game across all our other elite datasheets.  Then you end up with a cool specialist/niche unit that does not rely on killing models. 

 

RAIDER.

If a friendly model with this ability is in the enemy's deployment zone OR within 6" of an enemy model with the <HQ> battlefield role, whenever that player spends CP to affect a stratagem, roll a die; on a 4+you gain a CP.  This can only trigger a maximum of once per battle round.

 

PSYCHOLOGICAL WARFARE.

While an enemy unit is within 6" of a model with this ability, they must reroll successful Morale Tests and successful Combat Attrition tests.

 

DISRUPTION TACTICS.

After your opponent has selected their secondary objectives, randomly determine one of them by rolling a d3.  If that secondary objective is an end game scoring condition, then at the end of the game, that secondary objective scores 3 fewer victory points (to a minimum of 0). If it is a progressive scoring condition, they score 1 fewer victory point every time they calculate the scoring (to a minimum of 0).  This unit must be on the battlefield at the time the Victory Point calculation is made (ie, end of each battle round, or end of game)

GRAPNEL LAUNCHER/REIVER GRAV-CHUTE.

Change point costs to 0; they just get one or the other free.

 

SMOKESCREEN.

Give Reivers the Smokescreen keyword for free.

 

ADAPTIVE RECONNAISSANCE.

At the beginning of Turn 1, 2, or 3, if a model from this unit is holding an objective or in the enemy deployment zone, you may reject one of your secondary objectives and select a new one, subject to the same restrctions.  You keep any VP previously accumulated from the original secondary objective, but you now score any additional VP only for the new secondary objective (and the original remaining 2). 

 

PHOBOS COMPANY.

If your army's WARLORD contains the <PHOBOS> keyword, Reivers are a <TROOP> unit.

 

COMBAT KNIFE.

Change the Reiver Sergeant's "COMBAT KNIFE" to "CLANDESTINE BLADE"

Clandestine Blade:  S: user, AP: -2, D: 2, Invuln saves may not be taken against attacks made from this weapon.

 

 

____________________

 

 

If I were to completely make Reivers to my liking, I'd design them by keeping their base weapons and stats as shown in the Datasheet.

 

I'd give them the following special abilites:

 

Angels of Death, Combat Squads, Terror Troops (per the datasheet), <Smokescreen>, Clandestine Blade, Grapnel Launchers OR Reiver Grav Chute (free)

Phobos Company, AND "Special Operatives"

Special Operatives: After you have deployed, but before determining the first player, you may select one of the following special abilities.  That ability is in affect for the remainder of the game:  RAIDER , PSYCHOLOGICAL WARFARE, DISRUPTION TACTICS, ADAPTIVE RECONAISSANCE

 

I'd price them around 22-24 ppm.

Edited October 21, 2021 by 9x19 Parabellum

[Jacques Corbin]

The reconnaissance feature seems better suited for Infiltrators or better yet, Incursors.

 

I like the idea of the sergeant getting a better blade. That is gold.

 

I still say making them troops is too much. Keep them Elites, but make them as disruptive as possible to make them worth it.

 

They are never going to be lethal enough to take out a melee character. These are the guys you send after a support character, like an Ethereal or or similar buff character.

Edited October 21, 2021 by Jacques Corbin

[9x19 Parabellum]

The reconnaissance feature seems better suited for Infiltrators or better yet, Incursors.

 

 

I'd normally agree with you, but Incursors and Infiltrators at least have a place in list building. This is about fixing poor, poor reivers.

[GrinNfool]

Honestly I am not sure you need to do anything crazy like new rules or abilities to add, I think they would be serviceable, if you did two things. 

1) Make the Grapnel/grav chute free and just let players choose which 1 to bring

2) Let them use knife + carbine, instead of having to choose between being a worse assault intercessors or a worse intercessor, let them be right in the middle, 2 shots and not a chainsword, they would be designed to handle low armor threats and hordes which their psycological warfare stuff they have is pushing them towards anyways.

 

Leaving them at 18ppm and just giving them one of the deepstriking options at the players discretion on top of having a carbine + knife loadout would make them useable, maybe not good, but at least they would see the table.  If nothing else as "cheap" bodies with a jack of all trades role.  If you wanted to take them from at least seeing the table sometimes to actually being good, you could just give the knife and ap and the carbine being exploding 6s to hit or 3 shot, though thats trampling on the assault bolter a bit.

Edited October 22, 2021 by GrinNfool

[Captain Idaho]

I don't see anyone taking Reivers who operate as Incursors in the Elites slot though. They may as well not exist at that point.

[Lord_Ikka]

It seems like there are three main ideas being advocated: 

 

1. Re-work the weapons, making the knives and carbines slightly better, but keep the same basic rules as is.

2. Add/change the current special rules, making the Ld mod go away and focusing the Reivers on targeting either specific units (characters) or adding movement shenanigans.

3. Combination of the two, increasing weapon potency while changing up the special rules to make the Reivers more unique.

 

I wonder if GW will attempt any of these. Out of the options, number one is the easiest in terms of simple balancing- no one else has the paired combat blades or bolt carbines that Reivers have, so changing their profiles would only effect the Reivers. Adding/changing special rules seems to be more difficult, as rarely do we see that happen after a unit has been in a codex. 

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

If the question is what do I expect GW to do to fix Reivers my answer is pretty simple either nothing or add a sprue. It just wouldn't shock me to see them add a sprue with special weapons and drop the squad size. IF they added a special options for the sergeant and one other model you could really change how the squad functions. They could do a ranged loadout and a CC loadout. They also could make a phobas upgrade sprues to fix some other holes in the line but I don't know if they'd do that anytime soon.  

 

They really cornered themselves by making the primaris squads so similar so updating them is the best way out.

 

That said I don't know if GW sees them as being as bad as we do. Realistically unless your facing top tier lists running a squad reivers isn't gonna to cause you to auto-lose or anything. I also suspect that they're more worried about fixing some of the new primaris kits like Gladiators because I doubt they're selling well, where as reivers probably made back the investment in them already.   

[GrinNfool]

I don't see anyone taking Reivers who operate as Incursors in the Elites slot though. They may as well not exist at that point.

3 points cheaper + 1a and built in deepstrike, and you think they wouldn't get any play?  They would see play doing that if for no other reason as being a cheap way to achieve octarius, engage, or just as cheaper bodies to show up on objectives as needed.  To each their own but that seems a bit dismissive.  At the end of the day it doesn't really matter, what anyone says here, GW isn't listening to anyone on here, and they might not even see reivers as an actual issue.

[Captain Idaho]

But it's not really cheaper as you need to buy those Troops choices anyway, so you pay a tiny bit extra per squad but don't need the extra squads to achieve what you're intending to do.

 

It's not dismissive. I've thought about the unit and people just don't take a unit even at 18pts a model for 2 wounds a piece when they can save points and just use their Incursors to do so.

 

Whether GW or designers watche the forum (they do but where is the question) is irrelevant to the discussion.

Edited October 24, 2021 by Captain Idaho

[Orange Knight]

The Reivers are such a fantastic looking unit. I think the design is very compelling.

 

I'm not sure why Games Workshop have been so brutally conservative with their rules.

 

Their Carbines should be updated to "Special Issue Carbines" like those found on the Dark Angels Captain, and their Blades should be upgraded to "Power Blades" to match their description in the lore.

 

In addition to this, GW should make both the grav-chutes and the grapnel launchers default wargear that has no additional cost.

Edited October 25, 2021 by Orange Knight

[Lautrec the Embraced]

After reading so many ideas for reworked Reivers I’d say there isn’t a singular ideal choice. GW could do any one of the many proposed in this post and it’d be just fine. For me the most important thing is just to double down on their identity. Which is it, are they elite assault specialist, stealth guerrilla fighters, character killers, disruption black ops, sternguard wannabes? Rules don’t support any so are they really just another haphazardly released troops-like choice but in an overcrowded elite slot? So I’d suggest just making up their minds and tweaking them accordingly.

 

Whatever may the change be, I’d just hope they get rid of the fixed loadouts (no sarge/special weapons) for every single member of the squad. I’ve always been perplexed by such uninspiring choices and it’s amongst the chief reasons that discourage me from taking Primaris units in general (imagine how fun would vanguard veterans be without wargear options). I made an exception for Reivers as I liked the looks (they resembled my Night Lords) but so far I’d say I had 2 games where they did great job. By this I mean managing to beat Fire Warriors in melee. Great job Reivers, proud of you.

[Rik Lightstar]

Nobody seemed to really argue against Grapnels & Grav-Chutes being included at their current points cost, so that seems pretty nailed on.

 

I'd give them Carbine, Pistol & Knife in that too.

 

Maybe cut the range on the Carbine down from 24 to 18 and give it "exploding 6s" or "6s to hit auto-wound" or similar, it'd be good if it was DIFFERENT from the other 1000 bolt variants.

 

Some pistol upgrades on the squad would help, maybe 2 per 5 Reivers. Give them access to Neo-Volkite Pistols as a suitably distressing weapon to be hit by.

 

If you did that and gave the Sergeant access to the Pistol, Melee and Combi-Weapons lists then I think you'd be close to a viable unit.

 

Rik

 

 

 

*Just to ask, how is this thread not called "How do you solve a problem like MaReivers?", and because jokes are better when you have to explain them, here's the reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_Do_You_Solve_a_Problem_like_Maria%3F

Edited October 25, 2021 by Rik Lightstar

[Sword Brother Adelard]

*Just to ask, how is this thread not called "How do you solve a problem like MaReivers?", and because jokes are better when you have to explain them, here's the reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_Do_You_Solve_a_Problem_like_Maria%3F

I made that same joke several pages ago, sadly, it fell on death ears, because there is no doubt in my mind that that is the only true name for this thread.

[TheNewman]

"Deaf ears". Sorry, kinda can't help the knee-jerk impulse to correct that sort of thing.

 

I still think the shortest fix to Reivers is to combine all their equipment options into a single profile and bump the speed up to eight or nine inches. At least that way they fill the Assault Marine slot of fast harassment unit/action caddy for Primaris-only armies.

[phandaal]

"Deaf ears". Sorry, kinda can't help the knee-jerk impulse to correct that sort of thing.

 

I still think the shortest fix to Reivers is to combine all their equipment options into a single profile and bump the speed up to eight or nine inches. At least that way they fill the Assault Marine slot of fast harassment unit/action caddy for Primaris-only armies.

 

Give them honest-to-goodness jump packs (no more piddly bitty chute thingies), make them a Fast Attack option rather than Elite. Or allow them to be taken with no Force Org slot if you have a LT in Reiver armor, something to make it so they aren't competing with other far superior Elite choices.

 

Skull-faced shock troopers blasting across the battlefield on big ol jump packs sounds pretty "Terror Troop" to me.

[TheNewman]

 

 

"Deaf ears". Sorry, kinda can't help the knee-jerk impulse to correct that sort of thing.

 

I still think the shortest fix to Reivers is to combine all their equipment options into a single profile and bump the speed up to eight or nine inches. At least that way they fill the Assault Marine slot of fast harassment unit/action caddy for Primaris-only armies.

Give them honest-to-goodness jump packs (no more piddly bitty chute thingies), make them a Fast Attack option rather than Elite. Or allow them to be taken with no Force Org slot if you have a LT in Reiver armor, something to make it so they aren't competing with other far superior Elite choices.

 

Skull-faced shock troopers blasting across the battlefield on big ol jump packs sounds pretty "Terror Troop" to me.

The model still has to inform the rules and they don't have the extra jets that Omnis armor has. With the Grapnel/Grav-shute combination they're basically hook-shot-and-slow-falling their way across the map, I don't see a 12" move there. On the other hand a unit with a 9" move with Flip Belt rules, Shock Grenades, a 24" Assault 2 Bolters, Heavy Bolt Pistols, three attacks base, and Terror Troops is starting to sound kind of elite.

 

Admittedly I don't want them in fast attack because I play White Scars and there's a lot more competition for those FA slots when I'm building a list.

[phandaal]

Thought we were just spitballing here. Just do not like the little grav-chutes myself, so I am saying it would be nice to see them replaced with real jump packs on the model. But yeah if they changed to be more like Harlequins in terms of movement that would be cool too. It is easier to justify flippy floaty guys with those tiny fins on their backs.

[Schlitzaf]

Here is ultimately core problem with Reivars, Assault Marines and argueablt SM Bikers. They are Troop-Calibar Units in a Non-Troop Slot. For their point to comparable units (cheapish units with few special weapons), they aren’t bad. But they aren’t competing with Intercessors they compete with BGV, and other various Phobo Units like Suppressors and Eliminators.

[TheNewman]

Here is ultimately core problem with Reivars, Assault Marines and argueablt SM Bikers. They are Troop-Calibar Units in a Non-Troop Slot. For their point to comparable units (cheapish units with few special weapons), they aren’t bad. But they aren’t competing with Intercessors they compete with BGV, and other various Phobo Units like Suppressors and Eliminators.

Reivers and AMs, sure, but definitely not Bikers. Stable Platform and a 14" base move on something as tough as a Heavy Intercessor is very much better than troop-caliber, especially when the whole lot can be AP1 and two attacks in melee.