Ultramarine Heavy Intercessors

[Prot]

Hey guys, I'm looking for a new project for the UM's and I have been seriously doubting the validity of HI's. I wonder if anyone is using them and found any success?

 

I don't like how expensive they are and their loadout is a bit dubious to me. On the other hand they are good back ground babysitters. I have been personally using other units to do this that may even do it better, but like I said, I'm looking for a bit of a project here.

 

Has anyone 'competitively' tried these and have any feed back?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I’ve seen them in some seriously hard lists. Consensus is to with the three shot rifles.

[Prot]

I’ve seen them in some seriously hard lists. Consensus is to with the three shot rifles.

 

I've seen a good Youtuber doing competitive UM lists, and playing tournaments in areas where Covid restrictions seem lighter... (so there is some real playing going on) and I've seen him go on a pretty bad streak lately with his Heavy Intercessors. I don't know what he's using though, but I think he uses 2 squads which I'm personally starting to think is too much. 

[space wolf]

Well I have yet to play a game since 6th edition, but my old tactical bones tell me, one unit is probably enough. They seem effective, but too much of a point sink if you go too deep with them.

[Prot]

Does anyone know if the points changed with the munitorum points changes? (I have the book, I just don't remember the old values off the top of my head.)

 

+edit+ just answering my own question; it doesn't look like anything changed.

 

+EDIT 2+

 

Reviewing options here I just can't see any use out of the weapons overall beyond the Hellstorm which essentially is a 3 shot Assault weapon. Not great, but at S5 it might be better vs. those new Orks?! Better against DG too, but no AP is a problem. 

Edited June 9, 2021 by Prot

[Madmark666]

There's a lot of chaos marines players in my club so there's some value in s5 for me. Definitely liking the assault variant too, the others don't seem to be able to put out enough volume to be worth it.

[Karhedron]

I have been running a squad with the Assault 3 guns in my Space Wolves list and they have outperformed my expectations. They cost 40% more than regular Intercessors but get more than a 50% boost to durability. The boost from T4 to T5 means most small arms fire is wounding them on 5s rather than 4s while even overcharged plasma now needs 3s rather than 2s. 3 Wounds each means it actually more than double the amount of overcharged plasma to kill Heavy Intercessors compared to their lighter brothers. And if your opponent tries to go massed small-arms fire, the Gravis strat to give them +1 to their armour saves is great.

 

Dealing with Heavy Intercessors will require your opponent to dedicate either far more shots or bigger shots at them than Intercessors. If your opponent is putting that kind of firepower their way, it means he is not shooting the higher value stuff like Dreads, Bladeguard etc.

 

The lack of AP does hamper their offensive output slightly but they are still throwing out a bucket of S5 shots and will likely spend turns 2 and 3 in the Tactical Doctrine. UMs have ways to put units in the Tactical Doctrine if required s that is an option.

 

I don't think you want to be using these guys as Backfield Campers as you opponent may simply decide to ignore them. They are better pushing in the midfield to take Objectives just outside you DZ. That is the best way to use them to put pressure on your enemy.  They pair nicely with other Troops that are of above-average durability. I really like running them with Infiltrators as their Smokescreen Strat and Helix Gauntlet means you have 2 squads who can just shrug off small volumes of shooting forcing your opponent to go big or go home on your basic Troops.

[Prot]

I like that idea of pushing mid field with them. But honestly that's what my Aggressors do, and the good part of that is the fists they have make them a double threat. But I do see your point. And since they only have 30" (I believe on those assault weapons) it's not like you can sit back and blow something away.

[CCE1981]

I am contemplating a 10-man unit with the Assault 3 weapon to hold a midboard objective on a flank, maybe with a standard apothecary. The idea being that they are so hard to shift my opponent will have to hit my main force.

[Blitzjager]

I used a a 10 man Hvy. Bolt rifle squad near the end of a Crusade we played at my local store.  I ran  them in a castle with the Gravis Captain w MC Hvy Bolt Rifle and a Primaris LT wit Lament.   They seemed to to work decently because I could put down a solid base of fire out to 36 inches.

Edited July 6, 2021 by Blitzjager

[Prot]

Okay so I have to bring this up again....

 

I am really struggling with what to do with this squad that just doesn't feel like I should just use Aggressors.

 

I have been playing some wonky lists lately to give my opponents some fun, different looks. This is one of the rare squads left that I haven't really had in my lists.

 

So far I'm of two minds:

- Heavy Boltrifle x 5 models. This is the Rapid Fire 36" S5, -1, 1D.

What I like: Being Ultra, I do think these can be rear guard, with the ability to move/shoot in T2 if needed. I say this because in our Tactical Doctrine, we are looking at 2 shots at 36" Plus 5" movement (we act as not moving), gives us 2 x5 = 10 shots at S5, AP -2. This is good for all the cover we have in our games.

 

Add the Executor Heavy Bolter for that 42" ranged 2 shot Damage 3 which is decent against vehicles, and great against -1 damage armies. (I would take this as the single upgrade in any scenario I believe.)

 

What I don't like: It's just the best case scenario is 2 shots. Damage is low.

 

- Second is the Hellstorm Bolter. 

3 shots is good at 30"  at S5, but... AP 0 is so horrible right now. Anything aside from Orks is probably going to laugh this off, especially with all the cover saves. However, in a 5 man squad, that's 5 extra shots, and in Tactical Doctrine for turn 2-3, that's 2 turns of doing decent damage.

 

- Good: More shots, advance, and shoot, extending threat range. 

- Bad: No inherent AP in a cover rich table top could make these just rubber bullets. The 30" range likely does make these less of a back field objective holder, and more of a move/shoot unit.

 

Also would take the Executor Heavy Bolter here, or perhaps... nothing special? And keep the Hellstorm Bolter? Just because it retains assault?

 

Any thoughts?

 

This game is scheduled for later today, so any quick feedback would be appreciated! I really want to try these guys for once. I've had them sitting in a box for a few months. :)

[Oxydo]

Considering that we need to match the base weapon with the heavy weapon and the fact that UM usually spend turn 2-3 in Tactical Doctrine I would personally go for Heavy Bolt Rifle/Heavy Bolter or Hellstorm Bolt Rifle/Hellstorm Heavy Bolter.

But that's dependent on that I would use them as an aggressive midfield unit to soak up damage and use our fall back to not get locked by the inevitable charge.

 

For backfield use, I think Executor Bolt Rifle/Executor Heavy Bolter would do probably perform best since we can move and shoot without penalty is good while retaining AP-2 in Tactical.

[Prot]

I missed the part about needing to match the weapons to the heavy weapon counter part (it's a really strangely worded piece).

 

Good point, and I agree that having the 3 shots at mid field is nice. But I'm still leaning towards the 2 shot (rapid fire) at AP -2. It might not mean much to a few armies, but one thing I've noticed is my Ultra's usually have a plethora of -1 AP at S4.  Stuff like Terminators, Scarab Occult/Rubrics, etc I'm just worried about it bouncing off of them and that's just a bit too much investment. 

 

I think of my White Scars, always advancing with that Assault 3 bolter weapon, and some games it's gold, and others it just bounces. Though they only get access to -1 AP once in most of my games..... It's a tough call.

 

I think 10 at midfield would be very good though. Again aggressors are something I use in that role all the time, but no Obsec in that case.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I’d go with the heavy bolt rifle for now due to the current meta.

[Prot]

Well that was a bust.

I used the Hellstrorm guns because I felt they would be the least likely load out I would use. I proxied 8 Aggressors as Hellstorms, and 2 Eradicators for the appropriate Hvy Weapons.

I ended up going first and the game plan was to use the 10 ObSec models to grab the middle for Oath Of Moment.

Death guard would be the opponent (we don't pair up until game time, so it keeps the list building honest).

So I used Tiggy to throw on Psychic Fort, etc, and Calgar was there to shore it up.

I used a favourite list variant of mine with 2 Macroplasma Redemptors with a Primaris Techpriest, 2 Warsuits.

I had one turn of success with the Hvy Intercessors. I had success against Poxwalkers, and that was it. The Plague Marines, and Blightlords pretty much laughed this unit off.

You can see the pic above is near the beginning. The Hvy Int's are slowly widdling away, but the Dreads are attracting most the attention. The Apothecary can't keep up anymore, and the squad is stating to shrink.

- This is near the end. Calgar keeps stepping into the foray, and retreating to get as many kill assists as possible.

Eventually the Blightlords take care of the Redemptor. The amazing thing is, as lethargic as the Hvy Int's were, the Apothecary had the Seal of Oath relic, and I targeted the Blightlords at the start of the game. So every shot... every to wound had a reroll attached to it. This was absolutely brutal.

One thing I can't recall... but I used Calgars Aura on the squad, AND the Relic and I would use those abilities for Over watch. I can't remember if this is legal or not, but just to add to the calamity of the moment, that's how sturdy the Blightlords were, and how terrible the Hellstorms were.

In the end, Calgar finally died, the Hvy Int's were dead. The UM lost their first game in quite a while... 70-77 point victory to DG.

My opponent certainly enjoyed this moment (It's literally been a good 2 years since he's killed Calgar with any army.)

In my mind, in the current cost/rules set, I would rank the Hvy Int very low. Like... a 3 out of 5. (They'd be a 2 if they weren't ObSec). The Hellstorm is what I thought it would... far too limited in application. Cover is too heavy, too many good termie type armies now, etc. I'd never use that weapon loadout again personally.

It was a fun experiment though.

[Karhedron]

Curious, I have had a lot of success with my Heavy Intercessors but I have not let them get charged by a unit with decent melee weapons. Even if you have a hitty character nearby, they just don't pack the melee punch to last long in that scenario. Aggressors would indeed serve you better here.

 

Heavy Intercessors are at their best in firefights. If the enemy sends hard hitters to deal with them, I find it best to intercept with something more melee orientated. Of course it is easy for me to say that without a wider view of your battle.

[Prot]

Well... I win by going for Oath. Oath is dictated at mid field. If I'm taking a big expenditure on a large unit that is unable to hang at mid field, then it won't be in my list.

 

Regardless, even at range, there is no way I will take Hellstorms again. If it wasn't for my relic, they would have done almost nothing this game.

 

Experiences vary, but I play in a very competitive meta, and these just don't rate with me unfortunately. Too many points. too reliant on poor armour saves. Too inflexible. The combination of those things puts them in the back of the bus for me. Any one of those I can handle, but all three negatives make it really hard for me to do much more than plop 5 (with a higher AP gun) on an objective. 

 

Aggressors aren't amazing, but again, I play for the mid table and they (along with Blade guard) suit my playstyle and meta better.

Edited August 18, 2021 by Prot

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I knew the three shot assault bolter is garbage… especially in the current meta. I do think the heavy bolt rifle has some application though.

[Karhedron]

My 5-man squad with Assault 3 bolters gunned down a Necron Overlord in 1 volley after a Dread wiped out his bodyguard. I was in the tactical Doctrine at the time which helped but don't write off the Assault 3 version on the basis of a lack of AP. Weight of fire always has value.

[Karhedron]

From memory, 3 shots at AP0 is better than 2 shots at AP-1 vs 4+ or worse and equal vs 3+ saves. Only against 2+ saves is does the point of AP become better.

 

Of course it is not a straight comparison as Assault 3 is better outside half-range as the RF version only gets 1 shot. At long range this flips as the RF version has a 6" longer range. But the Assault 3 version can shoot when Advancing which neither of the other variants can.

 

Overall, as long as you have some decent AP firepower elsewhere in the army, I favour the Assault 3 guns on both Intercessors and Heavy Intercessors.

[Prot]

So the AP is what limits the effectiveness of the assault bolter? Just glancing at the stats it seems it’s a nice weight of fire weapon, especially if it’s in the hands of an Imperial Fist for exploding 6s. I haven’t played in forever so the no AP being that big of a deal is pretty jarring.

 

Well their also cost prohibitive as well. There's just not a ton of value there in my opinion. Unless you have a special way of leveraging their abilities (as you mention IF stuff), my lists would rather put those point in other units. I think GW needs to revisit these, and when they want them to sell, they'll be great. 

That said I bought a box, but with a few games with them I've decided not to put the unit together until they get a fix.

[Karhedron]

Strange that people seem to be having such divergent experiences with Heavy Intercessors. Mine have done solid work in every game I have fielded then. Killing the Overlord was an outlier but they usually contribute and (more importantly), always survive to hold their Objective.

[Prot]

Strange that people seem to be having such divergent experiences with Heavy Intercessors. Mine have done solid work in every game I have fielded then. Killing the Overlord was an outlier but they usually contribute and (more importantly), always survive to hold their Objectiv

 

I'm sure they're great in regular games. Unfortunately I'm usually stuck in a very competitive... fun, but competitive meta. YMMV. I'd love to keep using them but just still not seeing enough value right now. I would be play testing for a tournament environment. 

 

I'll definitely finish a squad. I have everything for my ultra's, even the cruddy turrets, and terrain thing (all painted) I've tried them as well. Some very fun units!

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

One of my issues is the sergeant can’t be kitted with any melee weapons.

[Prot]

This is frustrating me so far but call me crazy but perhaps I would get more mileage out of a 5 man unit of the assault variant with my White Scars. 
 

I was digging through tournament lists trying to find anyone using these with any success in case I could find a decent use case scenario that I’m missing but perhaps it’s white scars. That army pushes deeper into enemy territory than my Ultras and I often loathe keeping assault Intercessors twiddling their thumbs on objectives. With white scars these guys might do great sitting midfield just adding fire support while being able to advance and fire without issue to react to objective threats. 
 

I may need to rethink using these with Ultramarines. One thing is that 2+ saves are a very real issue for me as we use a lot of terrian and my main group has adopted GWs supported GT terrain setup. This means a a good chunk of +1 saves in the board. 
 

 I am thinking of how many sob, death guard, and marine players I face regularly and I think this is part of my skewed take on the lack of ap.