Possible loadouts and roles for Paragon Warsuits

[Maschinenpriester]

Hello Brothers and Sisters,

 

I am thinking of buying into the new wave of sisters to move my sisters army forward and I like the concept of the new shiny sisters walkers a lot.

I wonder what kind of loadout makes most sense for them.

 

I looked at the sprues that can be seen on the GW site. It seems to me that they come with all the weapon options for each model.

It does not look like magnetization will be too easy. Exept maybe the sword/ maul.

 

I personally think they are a bit of a jack of all trades unit and suffer from it like overequipped Terminators. Either I would go the All Meter Road, but then they kind of fulfill the role of Retributors. The other option I see would be Heavy Flamers for reliable autohits in CC. For the CC weapon I visually like the maul a lot. But considering the low number of attacks the Sword seems to be the more logical choice - Except If they get some rerolls I think.

 

So my thought would be the following loadouts:

 

3 Multimeters (Moving and shooting without Penalty) and 3 Mauls against vehicles and to repell deepstrikers (Like 3 wound Terminators)

 

3 Heavy Flamers and 3 Swords -> This probably makes lots of sense with BR to increase the number of Attacks with a charge.

 

What are your thoughts on Heavy bolters? I think they make more sense on Retributors, because they don't get to move and shoot easily anymore and HB have longer range.

Edited June 9, 2021 by Maschinenpriester

[ThePenitentOne]

I'm looking at a HUGE collection of walkers- I want to be able to field an entire army of nothing but walkers.

 

Given that, my PEs get ALL the fire; my Morties get ALL the HB, and that means my Paragons get all the Melta.

 

I'll be putting two swords and a mace in each unit; for now I'm planning two units.

 

When I pick up my Paragons this weekend I will have 14 walkers (didn't order Morven yet, but Karamazov was always destined to be a part of this force).

[Oxydo]

I looked at the sprues that can be seen on the GW site. It seems to me that they come with all the weapon options for each model.

It does not look like magnetization will be too easy. Exept maybe the sword/ maul.

Having taken a look myself, I would say that the HBolter/MM/Flamer appears to be easier to magnetise since they come as self contained objects consisting of weapon+wires+ammo/energycell which has two connection points: wrist and back of the shoulder. Should be a fairly straighforward job using 4 magnets since you don't have to deal with matching up wires like on centurions.

The melee weapons on the other hand might be problematic since the connection is split awkwardly with the fingers+thumbs on the weapon and the back of the hand on the arm-bit for 2 out of 3 arms. If those parts(the back of the hand worries me the most) are too thin you might not be able to fit a magnet at all.

[Toldavf]

Depends on the rest of your list. They will go up in target priority if they sport multimeltas. 

[Purifying Tempest]

I keep trying to puzzle a way for Heavy Flamers to be intriguing, but outside of Argent Shroud they don't have a reliable option to getting them into your opponent's front lines turn 1, and Argent Shroud can do that on a 5+ Advance I believe if hazy morning math adds up proper.  Everyone else will be well short of crossing the 24" rift, and Ebon Chalice/Minor Order with +4" Flamers will be frustratingly short.  So if you're looking to get returns out of them while trimming the attention they're going to attract, I'm thinking Heavy Bolters would be the best.  Punishes your opponent for not prioritizing Multi-melta models, doesn't suffer -1 to hit from moving, can reach out to touch desirable targets, keeps the points from being worse when they're inevitably targeted down.  I think MM is the optimal offensive choice, but that's just too timely of a target to present to the opponent when you lose the initiative roll for turn 1.

 

Edit: forgot the melee.  There's two ways to look at it, and I don't think either is wrong.  Getting that -1 to hit static on it means your opponent can frustrate you a little less with the rule as you're already maxed out, and can burn a strat to negate it when/if you get to something you want that 3+ consistency.  I honestly think the STR 6 attacks aren't really bringing anything we can't already bring to the table in spades, but I don't think it is a necessarily wrong answer either.

Edited June 10, 2021 by Purifying Tempest

[Blurf]

I keep trying to puzzle a way for Heavy Flamers to be intriguing, but outside of Argent Shroud they don't have a reliable option to getting them into your opponent's front lines turn 1, and Argent Shroud can do that on a 5+ Advance I believe if hazy morning math adds up proper.  Everyone else will be well short of crossing the 24" rift, and Ebon Chalice/Minor Order with +4" Flamers will be frustratingly short.  So if you're looking to get returns out of them while trimming the attention they're going to attract, I'm thinking Heavy Bolters would be the best.  Punishes your opponent for not prioritizing Multi-melta models, doesn't suffer -1 to hit from moving, can reach out to touch desirable targets, keeps the points from being worse when they're inevitably targeted down.  I think MM is the optimal offensive choice, but that's just too timely of a target to present to the opponent when you lose the initiative roll for turn 1.

 

Edit: forgot the melee.  There's two ways to look at it, and I don't think either is wrong.  Getting that -1 to hit static on it means your opponent can frustrate you a little less with the rule as you're already maxed out, and can burn a strat to negate it when/if you get to something you want that 3+ consistency.  I honestly think the STR 6 attacks aren't really bringing anything we can't already bring to the table in spades, but I don't think it is a necessarily wrong answer either.

If you're gonna take heavy bolters I'd just take mortifiers. They're more fragile but they're double the damage output in both shooting and melee(or just about).

[Purifying Tempest]

I heard a suggestion about a mixed squad with Heavy Flamers/Multi-meltas using the stormbolters to trigger Holy Trinity.  That's another possibility.

[bkde]

After looking at the kit, magnetizing the weapons can be done at either the shoulder joint (every weapon has a different ammo cannister that mounts to the shoulders) and/or at the weapon itself where it joins to the arm.

 

For maces/swords, part of the hand is on each weapon. My thought was to cut the weapon at the crosspiece of the hilt and magnet at the hand joint as the pommel of the sword/bottom of the mace are essentially the same size.

[Maschinenpriester]

After looking at the kit, magnetizing the weapons can be done at either the shoulder joint (every weapon has a different ammo cannister that mounts to the shoulders) and/or at the weapon itself where it joins to the arm.

 

For maces/swords, part of the hand is on each weapon. My thought was to cut the weapon at the crosspiece of the hilt and magnet at the hand joint as the pommel of the sword/bottom of the mace are essentially the same size.

Thanks for the info.. I am still waiting for my kit. Going to keep that info in mind.

[The Unseen]

Yeah, magnetizing the guns should be easy.

Glue the gun and back canister together and put magnets on the gun and canister

 

I haven't run the math yet, but without buffs I have a feeling the swords are better

[NKirkham24]

I’m planning two units of Warsuits, not necessarily in the same list but gives me options.

 

I intend to go Heavy Flamer, storm bolters and Maces on 3, with Swords, Grenades and Multi-melta on the other.

 

These combos should mean either unit can handle some horde or vehicles. I’ve already got Vahl so they’ll typically accompany her

Edited July 4, 2021 by NKirkham24

[Beams]

I keep trying to puzzle a way for Heavy Flamers to be intriguing, but outside of Argent Shroud they don't have a reliable option to getting them into your opponent's front lines turn 1, and Argent Shroud can do that on a 5+ Advance I believe if hazy morning math adds up proper. Everyone else will be well short of crossing the 24" rift, and Ebon Chalice/Minor Order with +4" Flamers will be frustratingly short. So if you're looking to get returns out of them while trimming the attention they're going to attract, I'm thinking Heavy Bolters would be the best. Punishes your opponent for not prioritizing Multi-melta models, doesn't suffer -1 to hit from moving, can reach out to touch desirable targets, keeps the points from being worse when they're inevitably targeted down. I think MM is the optimal offensive choice, but that's just too timely of a target to present to the opponent when you lose the initiative roll for turn 1.

 

Edit: forgot the melee. There's two ways to look at it, and I don't think either is wrong. Getting that -1 to hit static on it means your opponent can frustrate you a little less with the rule as you're already maxed out, and can burn a strat to negate it when/if you get to something you want that 3+ consistency. I honestly think the STR 6 attacks aren't really bringing anything we can't already bring to the table in spades, but I don't think it is a necessarily wrong answer either.

Heavy Flamers seem more reliable to me? Plus str 6 vs str 5 means you are more likely to kill Genestealers/Guardsmen outright.

 

D6 auto hits averages 3.5 hits, then you roll to wound, generally wounding on 2's or 3's

 

3 shots at 3+ are 2 hits, then you roll to wound, generally wounding on 3's

 

So both definitely have an advantage. But I feel like the Heavy Flamer is way cooler to me?

 

 

 

Though now that I think about it: Bloody Rose Multimeltas and Maces would be aces at hunting terminators.

Edited June 18, 2021 by Beams

[Purifying Tempest]

Well, I did the least efficient thing possible with mine and kitted them with swords and heavy bolters.  Using them to support the front lines from afar since that seems to be our achilles right this moment.  36" on the heavy bolters just seems useful, and a midgame unit that keeps out of the heaviest fighting while nimbler units move forward and harry the opponent sounded like a solid idea.  And then the swords.  Opened the box, started assembling, saw the swords and just had to roll with them.  They are fantastic looking.  Especially the fuller on the sergeant's blade.

[Vassakov]

I heard a suggestion about a mixed squad with Heavy Flamers/Multi-meltas using the stormbolters to trigger Holy Trinity.  That's another possibility.

 

This is my plan - 2x Meltas, 1x Heavy Flamer and then probably 2x Swords and 1x Mace.

 

Spending 1/2 CP for +1 to hit and/or wound seems very potent potentially, especially if you have Vahl nearby. 

[Bonzi]

 

 

I heard a suggestion about a mixed squad with Heavy Flamers/Multi-meltas using the stormbolters to trigger Holy Trinity. That's another possibility.

This is my plan - 2x Meltas, 1x Heavy Flamer and then probably 2x Swords and 1x Mace.

 

Spending 1/2 CP for +1 to hit and/or wound seems very potent potentially, especially if you have Vahl nearby.

Honestly, if you're using Vahl you don't need to build for trinity or spend the CP as Vahls full rerolls kind of covers it without needing the odd build or CP.

 

I used a squad with all meltas and storm bolters with one mace and two swords. Vahls rerolls make the squad crazy powerful. Frankly they are one of the few units we have that maxes the value of Vahls reroll ability as they benefit in shooting and combat.

 

If I were to make a second squad of Paragons I would probably go full flamers and swords as the most powerful generalist unit we could throw down plus they would make decent use of the max hits flamer strat.

[Joukernaut]

I went Multimeltas, stormbolters and maces, because of rule of cool. They look best in my opinion. I haven't fielded them yet, but I fully expect to reserve them after they get oneshotted the first time I field them. Magnetizing the guns is even easier than people have reported till now. you don't need a magnet for the gun, just for the canister. I magnetized the back of the stormbolter and lined it up with the canister, then just slide the gun on the arm and lock it in place, very easy to do and it works great.

[Blurf]

 

I heard a suggestion about a mixed squad with Heavy Flamers/Multi-meltas using the stormbolters to trigger Holy Trinity.  That's another possibility.

 

This is my plan - 2x Meltas, 1x Heavy Flamer and then probably 2x Swords and 1x Mace.

 

Spending 1/2 CP for +1 to hit and/or wound seems very potent potentially, especially if you have Vahl nearby. 

 

Someone on Dakka did the math on this and you end up doing equal or less damage with that setup and holy trinity against almost any target in the game than you do with just 3 multimeltas and no buffs. Even W1 models the bonus from the +1 to wound is barely anything compared to the triple melta setup. Keep it simple and stay with Multimeltas.

[Joukernaut]

Was the marh consistent against all types of enemies?

[Blurf]

Was the marh consistent against all types of enemies?

I'm just going to copy paste the breakdown. It's unnecessarily dramatic but it covers this specific use-case of holy trinity fairly well.

 

(The TLDR is that 3 multimeltas are just significantly more efficient than 2 multimeltas and a heavy flamer with +1 to wound.)

 

Quoted from Dakka:

 

Doing what you suggested with Paragons, here's what the damage looks vs just taking 3 Multimeltas like assuming T5+(no benefit for meltas at T4) and high wounds (remember, to use HT at all means you'll be in Melta Range):

 

Holy Trinity is Bad T5 3+, T7 3+, T83+

 

Paragons 2MM, HF, SB(Trin) 15.01, 14.09,11.55

Paragons 3MM, SB(No Trin) 15.56, 15.56, 11.44

 

So against high wound targets, you're spending a CP to do less damage on anything below T8 and .11 extra damage against T8. Keep in mind also that this is DURING trinity. It's MUCH worse when you run out of CP. Also, the melta squad can split their damage against several targets, the HT squad MUST spend all shots on the same target. Even with the HF setup being 10pts cheaper, it's very bad.

 

Let's try normalizing against 3W models (i.e. wasting 2-6 on the melta roll).

 

Paragons 2MM, HF, SB(Trin) 9.45 8.54 7.10

Paragons 3MM, SB(No Trin) 8.89 8.89 6.44

 

So even wasting most of the melta's damage, you still only end up with a maximum of .65 damage against an UNBUFFED triple multimelta setup.

 

But this is assuming no invul you say? Well let's check out the same VS a 3 wound 4++

 

Paragons 2MM, HF, SB(Trin) 6.12 5.20 4.43

Paragons 3MM, SB(No Trin) 4.89 4.89 3.44

 

Even in an almost ideal case, the absolute most benefit you get from using HT instead of just bring the correct weapons is 1.2 wounds. Even trying to find the bright side (well it's a 28% increase against T8 4++!) requires the unit you're shooting at to be no more than 3 wounds. Against an actual Knight, the bonus is only 12% and if you shoot from 13+ Inches away, you're actually losing 33%. You'd have to be shooting literally at the new T5 orks with multimeltas before the extra DPS from the 3rd multimelta is signficantly less than suggested weapons with +1 to wound.

Edited July 3, 2021 by Blurf

[Joukernaut]

Thanks for reposting the math. It looks like it is a bit more nuanced than the fact that 3 multimeltas are just plain best.

Having said that, I’m taking multimeltas anyway because I like the unit with uniform weapins and I live to melt stuff

[jarms48]

Personally I just think they’re rather meh. I love the look and idea of them. Personally I think GW should match their W and A characteristics with those from the Mortifiers and Penitent Engines.

 

So, W5 and A4. With the Superior getting A5.