Theory-crafting: What do you want for a WE codex?

[Lord_Ikka]

Not a WE player, or a Chaos player at all, but I'm curious as to what the frater of this board could come up with as theory-crafted WE codex. Styled similarly to DG or TSons, what models/units would you like to see in the codex, or what fun stuff could you come up with that would be a benefit to the army without going overboard. Thoughts?

[RolandTHTG]

Not a WE player, but from a chaos player's perspective:

 

HQ/characters:

Chaos lords, Lord on Juggernaut, Blood priest (chaplain, but with anti-psyker abilties), Master of Executions, Demon Prince, Khârn

 

Elite: Red Butchers (assault terminators),  Dreadnoughts

 

Troops: New Berzerker kit. 

 

Fast attack: Demon engines(blood slaughters?), Maybe unit on Juggernauts, Jump pack berzerkers

 

Heavy Support: Havocs (Teeth of Khorne!), Brass Scorpions, Land raiders. 

[Relentless]

I want berzerkers that can advance and charge

[Khornestar]

Juggernaut characters and cavalry unit, for sure. Everything else I feel like we sort of already have on one form or another.

 

Unique characters for sure, would be neat. Not unique like Khârn but similar to the exclusive hqs DG and TS have.

 

I want to take Khorne daemons in the army, and really some kind of Khorne daemonkin style blood tithe mechanic.

[Marshal Loss]

I'd love to see a Gladiator/Breacher unit type deal, drawn from 30k. Could be super cool.

[Khornestar]

Wow those indeed sound awesome and fitting. Maybe gladiators to prevent cowards from fleeing combat and breachers for… breaching. :P

[Excessus]

A wild thought...maybe Khorne Daemonkin would be a "Armies of Renown" like the Terminus Est one? :P 

[gaurdian31]

HQ: Lord on Juggernaut, Chaos Lord, Anti-Psyker character, character that can do things similar to Judgements of Khorne from AOS, Demon Prince, Khârn

Elites: Red Butcher terminators, Anti-Psyker unit, Lone Berserker with Glaive, Dreadnought, Gladiator style unit

Troops: New Berzerkers and Melee cultists

Heavy: Teeth of Khorne, Kytan Ravager, Assault Landraider

Fast Attack: Jump Pack Raptors, Juggernaut Calvary 

LOW: Lord of Skulls

[Relentless]

For some reason I get the feeling that berzerkers will lose their innate fight twice ability (i have no evidence, just useless worrying), so I'd hope for some special melee rules like space wolves and blood angels get when they charge.  But since we're posting wish lists I'll post one strictly for berzerkers:

 

New models of course (with a new unique weapon like DG flail)

Extra stuff on charge as mentioned above

advance and charge (possibly even MUST charge within 8in or something fluffy)

Fearless (though would settle for ignoring combat attrition modifiers like DG)

5 or 6+++ for mortal wounds (or all wounds?)

 

anything I'm missing?

[Cleal Baros]

HQ

• Berzerker Lord (with juggernaut option)

• Blood Priest (Dark Apostle alternative with significant anti-psyker abilities/bubble)

• Champion of Khorne (Exalted Champion with Khornate weapon options)

• Daemon Prince of Khorne

• Skull Taker (Master of Executions)

• Angron

• Khârn the Betrayer

• Gahlan Surlak – Souped up Butcher Surgeon

• Contemptor Dreadnought Character – Because it’s cool…

 

Elites

• Red Butcher Terminators

• Rampagers of Khorne - Elite Berzerkers armed with Excoriator chainaxes, barb-hook lashes, or dual wielded chain axes and a feel no pain ability.

• Butcher Surgeon – WE Apothecary with some ability linked to the nails rather than basic healing.

• Berserk Contemptor (Chain or subdued until released, on release it charges nearest unit on failed Leadership test (LD8), brutal in combat).

• Helbrute

• Khornate Possessed unit?

 

Troops

• Chaos Cultists

• Khorne Berzerkers

• Beast Pack (Gors & Ungors)

 

Fast Attack

• Blood Slaughterers

• Spawn

• Jump 'zerkers (Insert cool name)

• Juggernaut Cavalry

 

Heavy Support

• Land Raider

• Predator

• Cauldron of Blood

• Gorfiend – WE specific Maulerfiend

 

Transport

• Rhino

• Dreadclaw Variant

• Assault ramp transport – modified rhino or something else all together?

Edited June 22, 2021 by Cleal Baros

[Relentless]

 

 

• Contemptor Dreadnought Character – Because it’s cool…

 

 

 

Lotara Sarrin entombed in a dreadnaught for being an absolute badass

[Excessus]

 

 

 

• Contemptor Dreadnought Character – Because it’s cool…

 

 

 

Lotara Sarrin entombed in a dreadnaught for being an absolute badass

 

I'd rather see her as a Daemon Princess! :)

[Khornestar]

I think any new characters would be sweet. I assume since we have Khârn we won’t get any, but one never knows!

 

A dread character of any sort sounds awesome.

Edited June 24, 2021 by Juggernut

[Cheex]

I've thought about this a lot, but don't want to veer too heavily into wishlisting territory since that invariably leads to disappointment.

 

But one thing I would like to see for World Eaters is actually fewer rerolls to hit. WE are known for their ferocity - that is, the sheer number and strength of their attacks - more than precision skill. They're still skilled warriors, but their strength in duels tends to lean more towards keeping the opponent on the back foot the whole time.

 

Instead of a Chaos Lord having an aura of rerolling 1s to hit, make it an aura where unmodified 6s to hit cause an extra automatic hit. Part of me suspects that DttFE will be dropped from CSM, so this as an aura makes sense and is statistically similar to rerolling 1s.

 

Instead of Khârn providing full rerolls to hit, make it the same as above but on unmodified 5+ (and have it affect CORE and CHARACTER units).

 

Instead of Dark Apostles providing full rerolls to hit, give them something like the Canticle of Hate that loyalists get (+2" to charge, +3" to pile in and consolidation).

 

IMHO, reducing rerolls is good for the game anyway, while also representing the World Eaters' ferocity better.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

Big picture things I'd to see...

 

1.  Have WE be the most damaging close combat army.  Not necessarily the best at close combat but the most destructive.  So a WE army won't out fight slaanesh daemons or incubi but they will hit harder in general.

 

2.  Introduce SOME shooting elements to their rules.  Maybe even one mechanic or stratagem that gives WE an additional set of options.

 

More specific things I'd like to see.

 

1.  Give zerkers a fight on death ability similar to Wulfen.  This would be a nice counter to all the fight last we are seeing.

 

2.  A couple of out of phase abilities to get into combat.  6" heroic intervention strat or something like stooping dive. 

 

3.  An anti fall back ability.  Maybe a free pile in / attack against anyone falling back.  Something to punish cowards!

 

4.  Plastic Blood Slaughterer!

 

5.  A relic daemon weapon that bypasses invuln saves.

[Excessus]

I'm hoping the DG codex sets a prescedenrt in this case. The Greater Blight Drone from FW was copied into smaller similar units for their codex...and there is a Greater Brass Scorpion... ;)

[Marshal Loss]

Given the recent rumours of a WE codex...

1. World Eaters Lord with 3.5 era-style Berzerker Glaive
2. Berzerker Surgeon
3. Blood Priest
4. Berzerkers
5. Red Butchers
6. Plastic Blood Slaughterer
7. Angron
8. Some kind of frothing chaff unit

That'd keep me happy!

[betrayer41]

I would kill for a world eater surgeon. I’m currently working on a Kargos so it’d be nice to use him. Only real lore purpsoe I could see was being like a predator and removing skulls/heads on the battlefield lol Edited August 4, 2021 by betrayer41

[DeadFingers]

Allow me:

 

1- Angron (duh).

2- Berzerkers with all sorts of melee weapon options. Let's get gladiatorial.

3- Blood Pact as chaff.

4- Red Butchers.

5- Teeth of Khorne, aka these lads.

6- Brass Scorpion.

7- Triarii or Devourers as a sort of elite, specialized, low model count unit. Like the Exalted Sorcerers and Deathshroud are for their respective Legions.

8- Of course, some generic HQ so you aren't forced to take either Angron or Khârn.

 

I assume they'll get some other generic characters like the Death Guard did, but I'm not going to speculate about those too much because we could be here until the day the army is revealed. Although I do like the idea of the Berzerker surgeon, that'd be one interesting "doctor". I can only guess the Lord of Skulls will be rolled into the Codex too, so I'm not expecting too much on the Daemon Engine department, but one at least would be nice.

 

Also, I know we're all expecting a chaff unit based on the Thousand Sons and Death Guard, but there's always the possibility that the World Eaters might break the mold. Given Khorne's martial nature, GW might decide they should be an elite army with no chaff. I know, I have no evidence to back this up, but there's always a chance.

Edited August 5, 2021 by DeadFingers

[sitnam]

I would be shocked if WE have no chaff. I'm 100% WE will have cultists, and fairly positive they get something unique too. WE are already not going to have psykers, and presumably not a ton of ranged damage, no reason to limit them even further

 

Im not really a WE guy, but I'd love to see Berzerkers get 40k-ified caedere weapons from Horus Heresy. If Plague Marines can have unique melee weapons, THE melee cult marines need to have a wide weapon selection.

Edited August 5, 2021 by sitnam

[betrayer41]

Would love love love some two handed axes and meteor hammers.  Would take so much time off my conversions

[betrayer41]

The thing I REALLY REALLY want is 

 

[DeadFingers]

Don't we all, mate, don't we all.

 

But since the Conqueror reappeared under different captains after the Heresy, my fear is that Lotara either is one with the ship now, or is no longer alive. Of course there is always other possibilities like daemonic ascension or simply leaving the Conqueror behind, but I don't think she'd choose the latter, and until the HH gets a big ol' "FIN" I'll still have doubts about her continued survival. Even then I won't be sure that she gets to live to the current days of the setting unless GW prove otherwise, and my expectations for them using the character outside of the Heresy are very low.

Edited August 5, 2021 by DeadFingers

[Petitioner's City]

Loving this discussion and always nice to delve into the Ghosts books again. I do think the Pact does have such a potent role in our imaginations - and likely equally on the game designers. Abnett's creations are that important for the setting, and I can't imagine the studio not looking at them (or the Sons) when thinking about either a chaos human army or human units.

So how connected were the World Eaters to the Pact? I think the *only* world eaters in the Sabbat books was the poor sod and his comrades who attack a basilisk column in  Ghostmaker. There are also a few berserkers depicted in art in the Crusade history books, which may just be because of that story, or may indeed be some kind of larger connection, given the Khornate nature of some of the culture of the Sanguinary Worlds (there is also the Khornate cult in the Caffran story in Ghostmaker) 

Of the Blood Pact, they do have some Astartes leaders (eg Sagittar Slaith, the warlord in Guns of the Tanith); we've not seen any evidence they are members of the World Eaters, however, I think?

 

More so, I think fans who ask for the Pact to be *the* unit to come out in the World Eaters codex are maybe ignoring all the fluff about the Pact when they ask this. The Blood Pact was a historical army, a force which seems to have only become known to the imperium, it feels, in the Sanguinary Worlds at the time of the crusade (the second half of the 700s.m41) - although the short 'Regicide' by ADB is set before this, it seems the Pact become dominant notably when Gaur took over the leadership of the chaos forces following death of the first warlord, Nadzybar.

 

However, both editions of the Sabbat Crusades book do make mention of legends that suggest the pact is about 3 millennia old, meaning they could have a Cognitae-style role through history, but it seems more that the then-"modern" pact of the 750s onwards is a remaking of the older Sanguinary world culture by Gaur. Possibly.

 

In addition, there doesn't seem to be any evidence that Gaur was a World Eater, although the art for him is uber-Khornate. Nor any evidence that the other leaders of the Sanguinary world clans were (indeed, Sek seems to have been very Tzeetchian, for example).

 

Anyway, useful for this discussion - and presumably amidst the mood board studio designers might draw on - are the following info on the Sanguinary Worlds, clans, leaders and the pact from the first and second edition of the Sabbat Worlds Crusade source book:

My point being, making a "blood pact" unit or army which is meant the be the stand in for all khornate cult troops or even all "lost and the damned" armies would be a critical mistake in terms of world building. It would damage the wonderful historic and cultural specificity of the Blood Pact - a cult from fringe worlds on the imperium's western edge, no where near the Eye:

It just makes the universe a lot smaller - spatially and temporally. Better there is a unit or list which could be used to make the Pact, the Sons of Sek or any other quasi- or fully-professional chaos infantry army. But never something which says all expressions of that kind of unit/army *must* be the Pact.

Still as others have mentioned it would be good to have something which could be the Pact in the rules. Indeed we did have that with Imperial Armour 13, and even the Codex Eye of Terror list (published about the same time the pact itself first appeared in print). Hopefully either of those options come back somehow

Edit: Just thinking about this, it would be cool if a Pact box is released alongside one of those new novellas happening. It's clear the studio can indeed do this!

 

Edit 2: If there is something which is very Pact (although not purely Khornate, since Sek's forces used them too) I'd love to see in model form, it would be Wirewolves!

Edited August 5, 2021 by Petitioner's City

[Schurge]

Angron

Generic Lord on Juggernaut

Blood Priest on mount and on foot with Endless Spells

Elite Slot Characters

Cult Terminators

Cult Fast Attack

Teeth of Khorne

Souped up Helbrutes

Special transport

Blood Tithe that unlocks special strategems, endless spells, and daemon summoning.

Army Wide 5+ FnP

Strategem that allows you to ignore damage ranged damage temporarily for a turn but then you take it all at the end of your next turn.

 

Edit: Plastic Berserker kit that includes enough bolters to make hybrid tactical berserker squads and a few heavy weapons.

Edited August 7, 2021 by Schurge