Theory-crafting: What do you want for a WE codex?

[Khornestar]

You know, I hadn't really thought about endless spells until you mentioned them. 

 

The models already exist, no reason they couldn't be utilized in 40k as well. Same with the altar. 

Edited August 8, 2021 by Juggernut

[Schurge]

You know, I hadn't really thought about endless spells until you mentioend them.

 

The models already exist, no reason they couldn't be utilized in 40k as well. Same with the altar.

In my head my army's acts of slaughter are rewarded by supernatural phenomena that aid them in battle. Sandstorms where the sand is finely grated bone that weakens the foe, jams guns, and obscures the field. Blood falling from the skies creating swampy morasses and altering the landscape.

[Irate Khornate]

1. Blood tithe table

 

2. Specific HQ chaos lord equivalent

 

3. Updated berserkers and an aligned cultist equivalent

 

4. Red Butcher terminators

 

5. Ports/shared models over from AOS, mainly slaughterbrute

 

6. Keep dinobots,and master of executions

 

7. Slaughterhost warbands

 

8. Angron

 

This would be the equivalent of what thousand sons got in their codex, any more and I'll be ecstatic.

[Marshal Loss]

Slaughterbrute is actually a really good call. Now that I think about it, I'd be very surprised not to see it appear in a WE book

[Cheex]

Now that we're several codexes into the new edition, I think we can infer a bunch of plausible changes - especially based on what DG and TS have.

1. We won't have DttFE (though I expect CSM to also lose this).
2. Hateful Assault will be built into our statlines.
3. Controversial opinion: I think we will also lose BftBG as a unit rule. Codexes seem to be moving away from picking up tons of dice and rolling them again (e.g. Dakka Dakka Dakka) and BftBG is a big time waster for what essentially boils down to "make a bunch of extra attacks and get a bit of extra movement".
4. Army rules: something similar to the old Daemonkin Blood Tithe rules seems likely, though minus the daemon summoning.
5. Detachment rules: where DG has Inexorable Advance and TS has Brotherhood of Psykers, I could see WE simply getting bonus attacks and strength on the charge. We will almost certainly get similar rules limiting Daemon Princes, Lords and Cultists (and other chaff).
6. Subfaction rules: we have a bunch of warbands named in the lore that could easily be used as subfactions.
7. Units - based on what DG and TS have lost and gained, this is what I think is likely:
   1. HQs - lose Exalted Champion, Dark Apostle, Lord Discordant, Warpsmith; gain new Lord-level HQ and Champion-level HQ, maybe a priest-level HQ (though I think more likely to be Elites).
   2. Troops - lose CSM; gain Khornegors or similar 'chaff' unit.
   3. Elites - lose Chosen, Mutilators, Terminators; gain Red Butchers and support characters (priest, banner, surgeon?).
   4. Fast - lose Raptors, Warp Talons. I don't really see us getting Berzerkers on Juggernauts, but biker Berzerkers seems plausible (there's old artwork for them already).
   5. Heavy - lose Obliterators, Havocs; gain Teeth of Khorne. Slaughterbrute is a good shout as a possibility.
   6. LoWs - Angron.
8. New models:
   1. Angron - see Mortarion and Magnus.
   2. Berzerkers - see Plague Marines and Rubricae, plenty of new options to encourage existing players to update their collections.
   3. Khornegors - see Tzaangors and Poxwalkers.
   4. Red Butchers - see Blightlords and Scarab Occult.
   5. Lord-level and Champion-level characters - see Lord of Contagion, Lord of Virulence, Exalted Sorcerers.
   6. Support characters - see DG Elites characters.
   7. Teeth of Khorne - no direct equivalent to TS or DG, but since DG got a bunch of daemon engines it's not out of the question.

I don't want to see us losing so many units (Khorne knows I have tons of them painted already), but going by TS in particular, it seems likely that our unit list will be very much stripped back. 

[Irate Khornate]

I had either a moment of inspiration or a demented thought. While a bit out there hear me out.

 

Corpse Grinder Cultists instead of Khornegors. They already have a model, they serve the lord of blood and sinew (Khorne), and iirc its stated they aren't exclusive to the planet of Necromunda.

[Cheex]

Oh, and one more thing I forgot to mention: Crusade!

 

One of the biggest defining features of the World Eaters is that they have the Butcher's Nails hammering in the back of their heads, driving them with continual impulses to kill at all times. The only way to silence the Nails - and thereby gain the ability to feel anything other than anger - is to spill blood, but even then the pain only comes back.

 

With the way GW has been making Crusade rules unbelievably thematic and fun with codexes so far, there is so much potential to do the World Eaters justice here. I would especially like some kind of mechanic that gives the player a choice: either keep those Nails in check, or use them to get some serious bonuses at a big cost.

 

How exactly they do this, I don't mind. I just think it would be awesome!

[Lucerne]

Loving this discussion and always nice to delve into the Ghosts books again. I do think the Pact does have such a potent role in our imaginations - and likely equally on the game designers. Abnett's creations are that important for the setting, and I can't imagine the studio not looking at them (or the Sons) when thinking about either a chaos human army or human units.

 

So how connected were the World Eaters to the Pact? I think the *only* world eaters in the Sabbat books was the poor sod and his comrades who attack a basilisk column in  Ghostmaker. There are also a few berserkers depicted in art in the Crusade history books, which may just be because of that story, or may indeed be some kind of larger connection, given the Khornate nature of some of the culture of the Sanguinary Worlds (there is also the Khornate cult in the Caffran story in Ghostmaker) 

 

Of the Blood Pact, they do have some Astartes leaders (eg Sagittar Slaith, the warlord in Guns of the Tanith); we've not seen any evidence they are members of the World Eaters, however, I think?

 

More so, I think fans who ask for the Pact to be *the* unit to come out in the World Eaters codex are maybe ignoring all the fluff about the Pact when they ask this. The Blood Pact was a historical army, a force which seems to have only become known to the imperium, it feels, in the Sanguinary Worlds at the time of the crusade (the second half of the 700s.m41) - although the short 'Regicide' by ADB is set before this, it seems the Pact become dominant notably when Gaur took over the leadership of the chaos forces following death of the first warlord, Nadzybar.

 

However, both editions of the Sabbat Crusades book do make mention of legends that suggest the pact is about 3 millennia old, meaning they could have a Cognitae-style role through history, but it seems more that the then-"modern" pact of the 750s onwards is a remaking of the older Sanguinary world culture by Gaur. Possibly.

 

In addition, there doesn't seem to be any evidence that Gaur was a World Eater, although the art for him is uber-Khornate. Nor any evidence that the other leaders of the Sanguinary world clans were (indeed, Sek seems to have been very Tzeetchian, for example).

 

Anyway, useful for this discussion - and presumably amidst the mood board studio designers might draw on - are the following info on the Sanguinary Worlds, clans, leaders and the pact from the first and second edition of the Sabbat Worlds Crusade source book:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

My point being, making a "blood pact" unit or army which is meant the be the stand in for all khornate cult troops or even all "lost and the damned" armies would be a critical mistake in terms of world building. It would damage the wonderful historic and cultural specificity of the Blood Pact - a cult from fringe worlds on the imperium's western edge, no where near the Eye:

 

 

 

 

 

 

It just makes the universe a lot smaller - spatially and temporally. Better there is a unit or list which could be used to make the Pact, the Sons of Sek or any other quasi- or fully-professional chaos infantry army. But never something which says all expressions of that kind of unit/army *must* be the Pact.

 

Still as others have mentioned it would be good to have something which could be the Pact in the rules. Indeed we did have that with Imperial Armour 13, and even the Codex Eye of Terror list (published about the same time the pact itself first appeared in print). Hopefully either of those options come back somehow

 

Edit: Just thinking about this, it would be cool if a Pact box is released alongside one of those new novellas happening. It's clear the studio can indeed do this!

 

Edit 2: If there is something which is very Pact (although not purely Khornate, since Sek's forces used them too) I'd love to see in model form, it would be Wirewolves!

But we already saw bootleg blood pact, the stigmatus, appear in the 13th black crusade and the Jericho Reach. The Pact has unique backstory and traditions, but that's fluff. If you want the Pact to be a standard thing, lorewise we still don't know if they get wiped out at the end of the Sabbat Worlds crusade- there's an irony to the Pact being made into "Ghosts" of sort and carrying on their traditions alongside the World Eaters.

 

The official executioner of the Blood Pact is a world eater, btw, we have ceremonial art of world eaters- there's a strong link just one that isn't explored much in the Sabbat worlds novels. Same goes for Iron Warriors-we have the fortis binary incident, some artwork...

Edited August 9, 2021 by Lucerne

[Khornestar]

A buddy listed some changes for the daemon engines in the Thousand Sons book:

 

WS/BS 3+

Hades Autocannon AP-2

Ectoplasma is D3, dunno if that's shots or damage

Heldrakes have 5 attacks base

 

I really really really wish I didn't sell my maulerfiends and heldrakes in 8th edition. But to the point, if World Eaters get a codex and it has daemon engines, they'll be better.

[Marshal Loss]

A buddy listed some changes for the daemon engines in the Thousand Sons book:

 

WS/BS 3+

Hades Autocannon AP-2

Ectoplasma is D3, dunno if that's shots or damage

Heldrakes have 5 attacks base

 

I really really really wish I didn't sell my maulerfiends and heldrakes in 8th edition. But to the point, if World Eaters get a codex and it has daemon engines, they'll be better.

Didn't write down the Heldrake changes as the model doesn't interest me, but here are the Forgefiend/Maulerfiend changes:

 

 

Forgefiend

WS and BS 3+

S7 and 5A base

Ectoplasma are 36" and flat 3 damage

Heavy hades are 48" and AP-2

 

Maulerfiend

 

S7 and 6A base, only movement, WS and BS degrade, latter two starting at 3+ (so yuo won't feel drop until 3 wounds left)

Magma Cutters are Assault 2 and do D6+2 damage

Lasher tendrils dropped to 1 damage

Maulerfiend fists are now D3+3

Ignores all modifiers to charge rolls

 

Some significant buffs there, definitely going to be seeing a lot more of both of them.

[MegaVolt87]

I am a simple man for new units, the khorne bezerkers we have now with +1 wound with jump packs in the fast attack slot. If there is more complex/ imaginative units, great also. 

 

Edit- Also Loretta as our 40k version of Valkia the bloddy yes please. 

Edited August 10, 2021 by MegaVolt87

[Khornestar]

So now we're in a double-weird limbo state... where our astartes don't get an extra wound, and our daemon engines are also an older version. Applies to every legion but DG/TS, of course. Definitely taking a break from CSM, until something gives.

Edited August 10, 2021 by Juggernut

[Toldavf]

mutilators with butchers nails. 

[Cheex]

So now we're in a double-weird limbo state... where our astartes don't get an extra wound, and our daemon engines are also an older version. Applies to every legion but DG/TS, of course. Definitely taking a break from CSM, until something gives.

 

Unfortunately yeah, I think I'm in the same boat. It's just a shame that both of my main armies (CSM and Daemons) are so badly in need of updates, and I feel dirty having just started AdMech...

 

Kill Team might be the only place I use CSM for a while (at least there we'll have as many wounds as Marines!), and even then it won't be easy to represent World Eaters. CSM with bolt pistols and chainswords will have to do.

[Relentless]

So now we're in a double-weird limbo state... where our astartes don't get an extra wound, and our daemon engines are also an older version. Applies to every legion but DG/TS, of course. Definitely taking a break from CSM, until something gives.

 

Same, havent played WE at all this year, which sucks because they're my main army and I spent 100s of hours (and countless pots of Blood for the Blood God) painting them.  Switched to DG to hold me over until our codex finally drops 

[betrayer41]

I haven't played a single game of 9th. Just sold my custodes so now all I have is WE.  I would love a triarii/heavy breacher shield gladiator type unit.  Mostly because im kitbashing one now

[Closet Skeleton]

I'm hoping the DG codex sets a prescedenrt in this case. The Greater Blight Drone from FW was copied into smaller similar units for their codex...and there is a Greater Brass Scorpion...

 

Foetid Bloat Drones aren't really smaller than the so called 'Greater' Blight Drone.

http://johnstoysoldiers.blogspot.com/2017/07/nurgle-daemon-engines-plague-drones-old.html

 

Brass Scorpions have had lesser and greater versions for a while. The lesser one just had to be kit bashed from a Defiler as no model got released. Would still be nice to see though, as would something like a Blood Slaughterer redesign.

[Marshal Loss]

Redone plastic Blood Slaughterers are at the top of my daemon engine wishlist for WE. Always loved those models.

[Khornestar]

I just downloaded a STL for a 2-handed chainaxe:

 

 

And I really wish 2-handed chainaxes were a weapon option. Something like +2S -2AP 2 DMG but can't wield another weapon.

Edited August 15, 2021 by Juggernut

[Marshal Loss]

Surely it will be - if DG get cleavers and flails and axes and maces and knives and a power fist in their Plague Marine kit and Khorne Berzerkers don't get a wide range of comically murderous implements in theirs, something has gone badly wrong in GW's design studio. :P

[Khornestar]

Surely it will be - if DG get cleavers and flails and axes and maces and knives and a power fist in their Plague Marine kit and Khorne Berzerkers don't get a wide range of comically murderous implements in theirs, something has gone badly wrong in GW's design studio.

 

You had me at wide range of comically murderous implements. 

[DeadFingers]

So I just had a bit of a shower thought: Armour patterns. What are we expecting and what would everyone want to see?

 

Both of the already released Cult Legions have been designed from older power armour patterns. The Thousand Sons have their Terminators in fancy Tartaros, while the Rubric Marines are in a heavily corrupted/modified version of their own Achean Pattern Mk4 armour. Yes, it's a bit harder to tell, but I think the shape of the breastplate and knees gives the origins away. On the other end, The Death Guard have some bits of other marks mixed in and are all sorts of mutated, but for the most part remain Mk3 for the Plague Marines, and Cataphractii for their Terminators.

 

So what awaits the World Eaters? Personally I'm both expecting and hoping for Mk2 armour for Berzerkers. I think it fits their brutal gladiatorial style quite nicely, and the FW model designers seem to agree, as their Rampagers are equipped with it.

 

 

 

But what about Terminators? The FW Red Butchers are wearing Cataphractii, but so are the Sekhmet for the Thousand Sons, which they didn't follow for the Scarab Occult. If we do get more Cataphractii you certainly will not see me complaining, specially since the Red Butchers' armour was custom made to be a walking prison for them, and now they would/will be a lot more corrupted and Khorney.

 

Something I personally would love to see at some point is a modern take on Saturnine Termies, but sadly I don't see it happening in a Chaos context except for Emperor's Children being weird because they can, or a single character or special event model. Really don't see it happening for World Eaters.

Edited August 18, 2021 by DeadFingers

[Irate Khornate]

I would say Mark 5 due to that being Khârn's 30k armor and his updated 40k iteration being a chaos version of that armor.

 

Most artwork I've seen them in outside of showing off various color schemed have been in the mishmash look of Mark 5 (though the color scheme showing them post turning traitor is absolutely mark 5). Slave of Nucerias cover being my best example.

 

But more than just that, if any legion would embody the meaning of the Mark 5 it would absolutely be the World Eaters.

 

Even their tech marines constantly have to fight against the pull of the nails. This means armor is either in decent enough condition to be repaired quickly or its replaced from salvage/disposed of entirely. Their Forgeworld Contemptors even have the spot weld molecule bonding beads iconic to the Mark 5.

 

Now, as for terminators I would say cataphractii. It would make sense for them to get the 4++ save since it's a melee oriented unit that likely wont have guns

[Marshal Loss]

Agreed with the above. Mark V is almost certain for the Khorne Berzerkers. That could include elements of Mark II, especially if they've been designing some digitally for the upcoming 30k release(s), but Khorne Berzerkers have been in Mark V since their inception. 30k art and lore shows them adopting it far faster than other legions. In fact, the first ever Mark V suit GW designed was concept art for a Berzerker:

 

The first designs for Mk. II, III, IV and V power armour were, in fact, produced for Chaos Space Marines, way back in 1990. It was thought that while loyalists in the 41st Millennium would wear newer marks of power armour, the traitors of the Horus Heresy would be confined to maintaining and wearing older suits. The first concept drawing for the low-tech Mk. V suit was a Khorne Berzerker, while the Thousand Sons wore the more advanced Mk. IV armour.

 

With how closely GW stuck to Jes Goodwin's old sketches for the DG & TS, I expect World Eaters to keep their iconic Mark V. This would leave - if they stuck to the original sketches - Mark VI as the main/most prominent pattern for the inevitable Emperor's Children release.

 

For Terminators, I'd expect Cataphractii as well. It is much heavier and brutal looking than Tartaros, and could be possibly be done as e.g. "Bloodforged Terminator Armour" incorporating a mismatch of different Indomitus parts, similar to how as of 9th edition Blightlords and Deathshroud are described as wearing "Diseased Terminator Armour" (which is primarily but not entirely Cataphractii from a modelling perspective). They might not get the 4++, but I think they'll still give them the heavier looking armour.

 

It won't be Saturnine, which is virtually a piece of fan mythology at this point.

 

edit: spelling

Edited August 18, 2021 by Marshal Loss

[MegaVolt87]

I don't mind a mash of tartaros and indomni armour, but when its with cataphractti, I think it just looks bad. Would prefer embellished cataphractii plate as a complete suit not a mash.