Theory-crafting: What do you want for a WE codex?

[Marshal Loss]

I meant like the odd piece here and then, an arm or a shoulder etc, not a 50/50 suit split - think the Blightlords. I think they look swish:

 

 

https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/catalog/product/920x950/99120102074_DeathGuardBlightLordTerminators14.jpg

 

Logically speaking it would also be very difficult for any legion, especially the World Eaters, to maintain pure and fully functioning Cataphractii suits well into 40k. Their whole association with Mark V is in large part because of its slapdash nature.

 

Guess we all have our own tastes, though.

[DeadFingers]

Those are good points about Mark V, the style does certainly fit, what with the constant repairs and all, and I certainly wouldn't mind seeing studded armour show up. The "angry face" helmets are iconic as well.

 

That said, I still hope Mark II will show up in one form or another. Perhaps a more specialized unit, or a character? Or Berzerkers could have a mishmash of armour marks, on top of Mark V being a mishmash itself.

Logically speaking it would also be very difficult for any legion, especially the World Eaters, to maintain pure and fully functioning Cataphractii suits well into 40k. Their whole association with Mark V is in large part because of its slapdash nature.

I've been thinking about it overnight, and yes, you're entirely correct, the World Eaters are way too brutal and uncaring to keep their armour repaired. But in the case of the Red Butchers in particular, if they do end up being the Terminators of choice, my thoughts went in the opposite direction. They were considered crazy even by World Eaters standards, their suits were their prisons and they were kept immobilized and chained while not in battle. I can see GW taking a heavily mutated, fused-with-their-armour approach to them.

[Khornestar]

I like the interpretations about the armor, though to some degree I think those more in control of themselves between fights are dedicated to taking as many skulls as possible before theirs is taken. Sharp blades and repaired armor. Part of the weird zone we get into when we think about the logistics of all this nonsense :D .

[Marshal Loss]

I've been thinking about it overnight, and yes, you're entirely correct, the World Eaters are way too brutal and uncaring to keep their armour repaired. But in the case of the Red Butchers in particular, if they do end up being the Terminators of choice, my thoughts went in the opposite direction. They were considered crazy even by World Eaters standards, their suits were their prisons and they were kept immobilized and chained while not in battle. I can see GW taking a heavily mutated, fused-with-their-armour approach to them.

Being kept locked up between battles doesn't mean much when you're a frothing lunatic who runs uncaring through minefields and hurls himself at battle titans. I'd expect their armour to be brutal and heavy, the kind that not even a warp-infused marine could lift with its power disconnected, whatever armour plates they can find hammered into place to "repair" the insane amounts of damage they take every time they are unleashed. Being heavily mutated and fused Mutilator style doesn't really fit with the "they can be turned off between battles" 30k lore, at least in my opinion.

 

I don't personally see Red Butchers/World Eaters in general as being the heavily mutated type like how GW went with the DG revamp. All of the 90s/early 00s art is very "heavy metal" rather than gribbly monstrosity. Chaos Marines tend to fuse with their armour anyway, regardless of whether they look heavily mutated or not. Who knows which direction GW will (would?) go with them though. The Red Butchers of 40k, if we receive them, might share nothing more than their name with the Red Butchers we know from 30k.

[Relentless]

Now, as for terminators I would say cataphractii. It would make sense for them to get the 4++ save since it's a melee oriented unit that likely wont have guns

 

I wonder if red butchers will be more like deathshroud.  A hyper-elite, low model count unit where their abilities are just built into their cost rather than a CP upgrade.  Or will they be more like blightlords with the ability to build 10-man squads?  Not sure which I prefer to be honest, I rather like the idea of multiple 3-man red butcher squads dropping in from deepstrike, but I also do love a big termie blob

[The Spitehorde]

Personally i'd like to see both Red Butchers and run-of-the-mill Terminators, with close-combat weapons being the only type available to the RB whilst the regular Terminators get the usual selection of ranged and close combat weapons. 

Edited August 18, 2021 by The Spitehorde

[Khornestar]

 

Now, as for terminators I would say cataphractii. It would make sense for them to get the 4++ save since it's a melee oriented unit that likely wont have guns

 

 

I wonder if red butchers will be more like deathshroud.  A hyper-elite, low model count unit where their abilities are just built into their cost rather than a CP upgrade.  Or will they be more like blightlords with the ability to build 10-man squads?  Not sure which I prefer to be honest, I rather like the idea of multiple 3-man red butcher squads dropping in from deepstrike, but I also do love a big termie blob

 

That’s a very interesting design space issue/potential. In theory we have a mutilators for the dropping in, but obviously that is not really comparable to real terminators.

[Irate Khornate]

 

 

Now, as for terminators I would say cataphractii. It would make sense for them to get the 4++ save since it's a melee oriented unit that likely wont have guns

I wonder if red butchers will be more like deathshroud. A hyper-elite, low model count unit where their abilities are just built into their cost rather than a CP upgrade. Or will they be more like blightlords with the ability to build 10-man squads? Not sure which I prefer to be honest, I rather like the idea of multiple 3-man red butcher squads dropping in from deepstrike, but I also do love a big termie blob

Likely the blob style unless the get Blood for the Blood God tacked on. Then I could absolutely see 3 man units. I'd love to see them wielding dual melee weapons with an additional attack to make up for the lack of shooting.

 

Theory crafting I would say pay homage to the original with two power axes each with the option to load them out with twin chainfists. Maybe even a WE equivalent to the great frost axe.

[Sword Brethren Durion]

Maybe some rules against psyker ? Don't know if WE got some already (I coin flip between BT and WE it end on BT but will definitly grab a WE army).

 

But it would be nice for example to see Khârn unnafected by powers like in lore ! Especialy since he smash an ally when he do a 1. Could be a cool way to balance that betrayer rule.

[Khornestar]

I don’t expect WE will get anything antipsyker beyond the existing relic and stratagem. A character would be sweet, but again, super super unlikely.

[The Spitehorde]

Given the sheer psychic might of both GK and TS in their new codices, I wouldn't be overly surprised to see a couple of WE characters given purely defensive measures to use in the psychic phase. Maybe something along the lines of the Favour Of The Blood God ability that Zhufor has?

[Khornestar]

A bit of thought in army writing/construction is clearly going on to some degree, so it’s possible!

[Evil Eye]

So I haven't read through the whole thread, so my apologies if I mention ideas already listed, but here's what I'd like to see for a hypothetical World Eaters Codex (from a filthy Slaaneshi craven, so YMMV):

 

1) New Berzerkers are so obvious that it's almost not worth mentioning them, however I'd like to see some variations on them. Classic chainaxe-equipped lads of course, but also other weapon options; double power fist maybe, polearms (Berserker Glaive anyone?), perhaps flails/meteor hammers?

 

2) Teeth of Khorne! Special Khornate Havocs with access to plasma cannons, multi-meltas and maybe some unique weapons would be awesome IMO.

 

3) Plastic Blood Slaughterer, or at least mini-Blood Slaughterer, like what Bloat Drones are to Blight Drones. Bonus points for wheels like the really old model of yore.

 

4) This might sound like the stupidest idea ever, but a melee tank. Hear me out- Back in the 3.5 edition 'dex, one of the options for Khorne marked vehicles was Destroyer Blades, which basically turned any given vehicle into a CC murder machine. They showed this in the book with a converted Rhino with a buzzsaw ramming prow and a pair of saw arms. I reckon a Rhino variant with an open troop compartment (allowing the Berzerkers to get fighting quicker) and some choppy blades up front would be the Khorniest thing ever.

 

5) Variety of Elites-role characters (ala Death Guard) who bring various things to the table. Specialist anti-Psyker unit, a 40Kified Slaughterpriest, a few dedicated melee blender characters with different interesting weapons, you get the idea.

 

6) Cultists of some variety. Obviously there's the possibility for expendable but surprisingly ferocious melee cultists, but I also like the idea of suicide-bomber cultists; if anyone's going to employ such a thing it'll be the guys who literally do not care who dies as long as someone does.

 

7) A slightly smaller and less kidney-stealing Brass Scorpion. Alternatively, give one of the other weirder Epic-scale Khorne vehicles some love. The Lord of Skulls is derived from the Lord of Battles after all, and they don't have to be conceptually identical to their namesakes.

 

8) Some form of fighter-bomber/ground attack aircraft that isn't a Heldrake. Between the whole "indiscriminate destruction of everything in the general vicinity" thing and the possibility for a Kamikaze attack in the event of the plane getting shot a bit too much, it seems like a very Khornate way of doing business.

[Tallarn Commander]

Some great suggestions, especially the old Destroyer Blades. They were fun.

[ApulianAbaddon]

My 2 cents:

 

General rules

Army

Fnp 6+ and +1 to advance/charge rolls. They are eager to fight and so bloodthirsty they don't feel pain

 

Blood Thite

No Daemon summon but lot of small bonuses, like no overwatch, another +1 to advance/charge, meteor skull bombardment etc...

 

 

HQ

Khârn

Surgeon - give him aura +1 attack +1 Fnp and himself has poisoned blades

Headtaker - bonus VPs on killing characters, give extra Blood Thite points, then similar rules to chaos MoE

Priest? Works like a Chaplain but this sounds like magic and Khorne doesn't like it. Can overlap with Headtaker

 

TROOPS

Cannibal cultists - +1 attack compared to current ones, must consolidate on enemy infantry, get fnp or something if they kill a unit

Khorngor - few attacks but very strong with 2 handed axe, advance+charge

Berserker - can get chainaxe or chainsword and pistol (noth both), 1 in 5 can get 2 handed chain axe or some gladiatorial weapons

 

ELITE

Gladiators - naked Berserker with no armor but high fnp (like 5+ that can get to 4+) and fancy weapons like flails, falchions, etc...

Wrecker - chained Contemptor dreadnought with chain flail or drill weapons, made for fighting other vehicles or monsters

Impaler - like the forgeworld one, new engine with harpoon that can drag vehicles/monster near

 

FAST

Rampager - bikes with spikes

Juggernaut - Toughness 6, armor 2+, deal MW on charge, but very slow 

 

HEAVY

Devastator with weapons as previously said, with scaled down weapons from forgefiend (portable autocannons, ectoplasma)

Scaled down brass scorpion - bit less shooty than a defiler but more fighty, hampers psykers by a lot

 

LOW

Our man Angron, doesn't support the army but extremely killy and immune to psi, give lot of Blood Thite points

[MadEdric]

A strat like this:

Bezerker Charge.

2CP

In the fight phase, select one unit of Bezerkers or Red Butchers when you choose them for their second round of attacks due to the Blood for the Blood God ability. This unit may pile in and attack any (maybe just one) enemy unit within range, even if those units were not charged by this unit.

[Khornestar]

That would be an awesome strat.

[MegaVolt87]

Might have already been mentioned- flamer option for bezerkers, combi flamer, hand flamer option on unit champions, havoc unit with blast profile heavy bolters, heavy flamer options for chosen, havocs. Two handed axe WE unique weapons- champs, lords, chosen + termi's can take. 

[Azekai]

The ability to deal mortal wounds in close combat. No psykers, so the chosen sons of Khorne need a way of dealing hurt to those 3++/5+++ targets. Maybe the squad using it takes some mortal wounds themselves. Maybe they hit their buddies, like Khârn.

Also a way to deal auto wounds. Those silly skitarii get it, so should the blood-covered World Eaters. Often overkill for squads like berserkers, maybe, but I like the idea of Khorne's guys being so stupid angry they can tear tanks and infantry apart with equal ease. 

Finally a cheeky way to bypass those pesky 'can only deal so many wounds per phase' abilities. Again, the followers of Khorne lack psychic powers, so having a way to deal with these unsubtle beatsticks would be nice. Maybe just a way to turn it off completely.

[MegaVolt87]

Nah, I'm done with stop hitting yourself and random roll stats for CSM. Just flat power/ buffs and make the points reflect that per model/unit. 

[Khornestar]

Yeah, I really don’t share the interest in built-in downsides, like rolling a 1 for a daemon weapon. At least something like gets hot on plasma applies (virtually) equally across the factions.

 

Look at, say, a loyalist primaris biker chaplain with benediction and then a chaos character with any daemon weapon. The potential to mortally wound the wielder is just dumb to me, where the loyalist will do more damage, survive better, etc. That sort of thing is always cooler in the lore.

[Azekai]

Nah, I'm done with stop hitting yourself and random roll stats for CSM. Just flat power/ buffs and make the points reflect that per model/unit. 

The poxwalkers kill themselves with their mutant strain. The tradeoff of dealing mortal wounds for some return damage is an well established existing precedent.

[Relentless]

 

Nah, I'm done with stop hitting yourself and random roll stats for CSM. Just flat power/ buffs and make the points reflect that per model/unit. 

The poxwalkers kill themselves with their mutant strain. The tradeoff of dealing mortal wounds for some return damage is an well established existing precedent.

 

 

Poxwalkers also gain models back for each one they kill, and have strats to bring even more back.  WE wont get anything like that, so unless the trade-off is like 3 or 4 mortals for every 1 a WE takes, it aint gonna be worth it.  I'd rather berzerkers (or all WE) on the charge, roll a d6 for ever model in engagement range of the enemy and a 5+ does a mortal wound, or something similar

[Brutallica]

1. (i know its not gonna happen because GW is gonna GW.) Bloodthirsters please, i love them, the embodiment of khorne, dont care for the janky Demon Prince. Give us the big guys with exalted traits/relics, not the discount version that was in KDK codex, i dont want light version of them. Lets face it, the pure demon players mostly dont care for them anyway, bring the boys back home.
2. Angron, make him just as big and buff as thirsters and magnus (preferebly more, and insane close combat, give him BFBG!) Make him so nasty in close combat that when ge gets there it makes Tau players wanna shake hands right away! 
3. Red Butcter terminator models! No more stratagem, an army unit!
4. Red Butcher terminator HQ with BFBG, like a updated Zhufor, just alot more dangerous. (wishful thinking, i know, but hey, thats what point costs are for, im seriously tired of our units being so cheap because they die like flies or perforum medicore).
5 .Bloodtithe (without summoning, just the basic like 5+ fnp, attacks, advance/charge etc, loved it!, perhaps include summoning for narrative or something). And give the ability to sacrifice cultists, man i loved doing that hahaha
6. Fallback flat denial stratagem or Tithe table and overwatch denial stratagem.
7. Expand on the BFBG rule to IGNORE declared charge targets restriction/consolidation (and not some damn CP drain stratagem), if they make it into combat they will KILL, no more polite "escuse me sir, i will wait here and stare angry at you because you werent declared" That gotta stop right now!
8. New berserker models, i dont mind doing conversions, but...the intended models are too old no matter how much i like my conversions.

These are the main things id like to see, rest is just icing on the top. 

But knowing GW's way of doing things, we are prolly gonna get some some new cultists, stratagems with extra attacks+the usual super situational stratagems "when fighting against Emperors Children in the first turn on a desert map and the end of your command phase you can...bla bla bla d3 mortal on a successful 10"+ charge" and probably a nerfed BFBG. At this point Id say we are lucky if our berserkers will have 2 wounds and termies 3. 
 

Edited October 3, 2021 by Brutallica

[INKS]

Do we know for sure that we are getting a codex for World Eaters? I really love Khorne Berserkers, so any army of them or built around them seems like a lot of fun

 

Do we think we'll see a new or updated model for Khârn?