Theory-crafting: What do you want for a EC codex?

[Lord_Ikka]

Not a EC player, or a Chaos player at all, but I'm curious as to what the frater of this board could come up with as theory-crafted EC codex. Styled similarly to DG or TSons, what models/units would you like to see in the codex, or what fun stuff could you come up with that would be a benefit to the army without going overboard. Thoughts?

[WarriorFish]

First and foremost I want to see existing models retained. EC players have been using the core CSM codex for a long time so losing options and use for long established models would be really bad. I've never felt EC were a Legion as focused like DG and Sons, so they should largely run much the same as others. Some unique options would be cool, but I'm not sure what they could be other than a spin on something established like Chosen etc?

 

A unique support character would be cool (Noise Marine orientated?), along with a special Daemon Engine - again makes you think of something noise related As noted my main concern is my existing models, it's enough that I've yet to even open my Lord Disco If too much is lost I'll need to think about sticking to C:CSM, whatever may be left for EC/Slaanesh there

 

With the C:SM supplement approach I had wondered if Chaos could get the same treatment. That might work better overall, but I'm not sure how likely it is to happen.

[Marshal Loss]

• Plastic Noise Marines (probably with at least a couple of new weapon options)
• Cult Terminators (My preference would be for Sonic, ala 3.5, but 40k-style Phoenix Guard would be awesome...)
• Characters (Lord equivalent, a Fleshcrafter Apothecary/Sorcerer style chap, etc)
• Daemon Engine of some kind

That's all we need, in my opinion, 1x troop 1x terminator 1-4x HQ/elite supporting character(s) & 1x daemon engine. Anything beyond that is just gravy on top. We'd also get Fulgrim, of course, but I'm about the Legion, not the Primarch. Could also see some units like Palatine Blades, oldschool Kakophoni (aka a super Noise Marine), etc.

 

First and foremost I want to see existing models retained. EC players have been using the core CSM codex for a long time so losing options and use for long established models would be really bad. I've never felt EC were a Legion as focused like DG and Sons, so they should largely run much the same as others.

The problem there is that you could have said the same for DG & TS regarding tabletop options before they were fleshed out in 2016 & 2017. EC warbands are meant to be the rarest and weirdest of all the Traitor Legions in universe, per IA, so I'd really like to see EC diverge heavily from the norm. That comes with downsides of course and it's understandable that some folks wouldn't be super pleased, but I think the benefits would be worth it in the long run.

 

Assuming GW stick to what they said they were going to do when DG were redone, the model for future Legion releases is to be in that vein, so we're bound to lose some options.

[Panzer]

My only real wish would be Noise Marines, including new models, with the options of both guitar blasters as well as dubstep blasters to make everyone happy. As long as we get that I'd be fine with pretty much anything I feel.

[WarriorFish]

Well obviously there has been change, just as we could also talk about when Space Marines were T3, and that GW could change it so EC aren't the rarest and weirdest at the drop of a codex GW will do what they wish as always, but I'm not sure how much room there is for more divergent armies. Comparing the treatment Sons have got to DG is almost night and day for support and options, I wouldn't want EC to fall into the former's camp

 

That's why I'd like to see something more tempered in change and not going straight to 11 in uniqueness. That said, GW seem to have stepped back from the big releases of late which would be required so I'm not sure how likely that is. All we do know is that GW is willing to make notable changes currently in how things work and are done, so anything could potentially be on the cards. This is a good thing, though obviously potentially not all good - change is more Tzeentch than Slaanesh after all

 

It all comes down to models in the end, as that's what dictates units and therefore codices etc. New Noise Marines are surely on everyone's list, as Panzer says that's probably all that's really needed to make people happy. You could argue that this makes for a very low bar, but I think that speaks for itself...

[Marshal Loss]

EC being the rarest & weirdest has been a thing for decades, and is a common feature in even the most recent BL literature. That's not going to change, and the above comparison is just silly and distorts my point. Sure, things change - EC could lose their sonic weapons and instead function as 40k's first synchronised swimming troupe - but all four of the cult legions have been massively divergent from the other legions in the lore for nearly 20 years now, even if the rules from 4th to 7th didn't reflect that. Also, a simple truth: divergent armies sell. They're more interesting to design, more interesting to play, and that's what the majority of folks want when it comes to traitor legions. People these days obsess over Primarchs and full Legion releases and this and that and I think ultimately it's very clear that's what GW is going to do, sooner or later. DG have been a huge hit.

 

The only reason not to want EC/WE to get a DG style makeover is because you have an existing army that might have a large chunk of units torn out of it. That's totally understandable. Personally, to be frank, I think even a TS style treatment would be worth throwing out a large chunk of the codex for. I'd kill for an EC Terminator + Noise Marine + EC Lord + Primarch + Slaangor/whatever release even if it meant I lost a bunch of stuff because new EC specific models would bring me infinitely more joy than a Forgefiend or a Raptor or a Biker or whatever painted up in pink and black, even if the scale of the release was closer to TS than to DG. That's just my view.

 

I'll echo the "I'd be happy with Noise Marines" sentiment. For good or for ill, however, I think the genie is out of the bottle. Time will tell.

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Myself, I hope that they give us a whole bunch of crazy new stuff - I feel Thousand Sons was a missed opportunity, as it is essentially just Chaos Space Marines with goats, fancy terminators and more types of sorcerers.  The Deathguard codex is much more interesting - in my opinion because it abandoned the concept that it needed to retain all the CSM stuff and therefore could focus on their theme and create new stuff that better fit that theme.

 

Sure, that may mean that I can't field a bunch of myself as Emperor's Children anymore, but we all know I'll continue buying and painting new stuff and I can always use the CSM codex to play the options I have that aren't in the EC codex.

 

I would like more options for noise marines and noise weapons on other platforms (bringing the noise hellbrute into the codex, a noise predator and forgefiend would also be cool), but I don't want noise weapons to be our whole thing, though, and would hope they bring in other wierdness that I haven't even thought of.

 

Finally, they need to give us a decent melee unit - EC are supposed to be consummate duelists, and there really isn't anything that currently reflects that.

Edited June 10, 2021 by Dr_Ruminahui

[Marshal Loss]

Actually, now that Dr_Ruminahui mentions it, I'd absolutely love a Sonic Predator upgrade sprue (just like how the Sisters of Battle got an upgrade sprue for their Rhino). Add that to my wishlist.

[MegaVolt87]

The OG first noise marines from the HH era, but as a HS unit, a unique havoc style unit would be cool. Think like chosen except shooty in HS. 

[Special Officer Doofy]

It would be unfortunate for EC to lose access to certain units if/when they get a stand alone codex, because people put time and money into them and painted them EC (or their own successor). That does suck. And some of you, like I know for a fact Dr. R did some awesome conversions even (his caped noise marines are amazing!). But, I think the more divergent the better. DG definitely got the better end of the deal than TS. I play DG and exclusively use the DG only units. Predators, LR's, defilers and even rhino's are not that good or competitive with DG and don't get DR. PBC, haulers and drones are much cooler than the basic Daemon engines in my opinion, and work better in a DG army. So I say the more divergent the better. My opinion of course.

 

I really want them to do an EC codex. I'm sitting on two CSM start collecting boxes and the CSM decimation battle box, got them for Christmas last year. Holding off until the codex for CSM drops, and would sell them off in a heartbeat if there was an EC launch soon.

 

As for units, obviously first and foremost, new noise marines. Maybe new weapons, but would not be the worst thing if they kept what they currently have. Daemon Prince Primarch Fulgrim, another obvious trend. After those two must haves, I would say redo Lucius the eternal (you know, make his rules not suck either... 5++ and not 4? Really?). Sonic helbrute. Make it a new helbrute kit with the sonic helbrute option, a thousand sons psyker helbrute (the most asked for TS unit that I've at least seen), and then just a better looking/updated helbrute for the other legions. Terminators of some kind with their own wargear/rules. Terminators are sweet, I really like the look of the DG and TS specific ones. Maybe a character or two in the elite slot, some silly rules for them that are fun. And of course you can't go wrong with Daemon engines, something with sonic weapons. Not opposed to a mad max esque guitar guy ontop of the Daemon engine either!

 

Edit: Spelling

Edited June 11, 2021 by Putrid Choir

[Excessus]

I wouldn't mind EC being more glass cannon-y than both TS and DG. I hope they buff the sonic weaponry massively and expand the range to more types. Sonic weapons on tanks, dreadnaughts, terminators, havocs, a lot of units scream out for sonic weapon options. 

 

 

What I do think will happen is that they'll get a terminator unit that will be in the likeness of their HH counterpart, just as TS and DG got theirs. Imagine the crazyness spearwielding terminators would be, with horrifyingly beautiful filigree and...well...I get excited just thinking about it. :) 

[sitnam]

In regards to a full fledged codex losing access to CSM stuff, I just don't see how GW will release a new codex without EC losing something. It happened with DG and TS, I have no doubt it'd happen with EC. Which would suck for existing collection s, but allies and Renegade warbands exist for a reason.

 

Honestly though, I dont think EC or WE are really that divergent to need a new codex. The biggest priority should be a full fledged Noise Marine kit

[Evil Eye]

As much as I love Noise Marines (and don't get me wrong, I LOVE Noise Marines) I wouldn't want every single unit to just be "X but with sonic weapons!". Not to say I wouldn't want some sonic weapons on other units; I've got my WIP counts-as Achilles sonic Land Raider after all, but more themes would be nice.

In terms of stuff I want to see though:

 

  A)  CSM bikers need an overhaul anyway but special EC bikers would be awesome. Maybe possessed bikers? And of course the return of the DOOMRIDER.

 

   B )  A "Kaleidocannon" weapon family, that is, specialized las-weapons that use psychedelic beams of light which can cause seizures and hallucinations in the foe (in addition to good old fashioned death).

 

   C)  "Junkie Marines"- CSMs so out of their mind on combat drugs they're more like animals than soldiers. More a force to be unleashed than troops to be directed, however are immune to pain, psychology and are terrifying up close.

 

   D)  A specialist daemon engine called the "Sin Eater"- it grinds up victims in close quarters and distills their remains into a cloud of psychotropic gas that makes the followers of Slaanesh even nastier whilst everyone else starts having brain hemorrhages. Particularly nutty EC can inject/drink this stuff directly from the engine and gain even greater strength, though it doesn't always quite work out...

 

   E)  Corrupted Rapier gun carriers that swap out the usual weaponry for more esoteric armaments- sonic volley guns, heavy kaleido-cannons, chem-munition projectors, mind-scrambling "brainwave blasters" etc...

 

 

Of particular note, I had an idea for a host of DG-style Elite "mini-characters" (Foul Blightspawn and the like). Maybe 6, as it is the sacred number and also would go well with the 6 Circles of Sin in Slaanesh's realm. Some ideas I had for those were:

 

   1)  "Gilded Ones"- Representing the Circle of Avidity, these chaps are alchemists of sorts, using their craft to transmute materials into forms more pleasing to his whims. This can act in a support role, strengthening the armour and blades of allies, or they can work offensively, causing catastrophic damage to enemy war machines as their inner working turn to beautiful but fragile crystal.

 

   2)  "Meatmasters"- Representing the Circle of Gluttony, these guys are melee murder machines that can turn their foes into delicious canapes, either for their own benefit or their fellow Marines. Pretty simple and marries the damage and buffing unit types well, also cannibalism seems very EC.

 

   3)  "Disciples of Yrothys"- Representing the Circle of Carnality, these ranged specialists are basically evil Cupids. They can use two weapons- the Aphrodyth Projector, which is a chem-sprayer that drives those it hits mad with lust and causing them to fall on each other (in practice this results in the targeted unit taking wounds and potentially being rendered inactive for a period) and the Yrothis Dart Gun, which fires needles that cause the target to become unnaturally attractive to all around them (in practice this makes hitting the target, either at range or in melee, considerably easier if they've been darted. It could also cause the foe to take a test or else have to move towards and possibly even attack the target but that could get complex).

 

   4)  "Heralds of Arrogance"- Representing the Circle of Paramountcy, these blokes are equipped with warp-tainted vox-casters that broadcast a fanfare of what can only be described as weaponized ego-stroking. Foes suddenly become afflicted with what was described in the WHFRP as "heroic idiocy" and will be compelled to emulate the Charge of the Light Brigade as they all become utterly convinced they are invincible heroes. Functionally, this can be used to force the foe to try and charge or move towards the EC, also stripping them of cover bonuses.

 

   5)  "Troubadours of Torment"- Representing the Circle of Vainglory, these sods are the opposite of the Heralds of Arrogance. Using discordant, inaudible but palpable frequencies, they cause immense discomfort and paranoia in the foe, resulting in fumbles and blunders of all kinds. This would basically be the debuff hero, reducing the foe's ability to hit at optimal power. Combined with a Herald of Arrogance would be particularly nasty, as the enemy attempts a heroic charge, has a "Wait, what are we doing?" moment and then gets cut down by withering salvos of gunfire.

 

   6)  "Inertiomancers"- Representing the Circle of Indolency, these fellows are specialized psykers who use their powers to make the enemy tired. In fact, dead tired. And then dead. In practice, this would be another debuff hero focused on crippling mobility whilst also meddling with gunlines' ability to bring heavy weapons to bear (counting as having moved etc).

 

< Dr, Ruminahui: I edited it to make it a bit easier to read>

Edited June 13, 2021 by Dr_Ruminahui
To make it more legible

[ThePenitentOne]

A new plastic Lucius the Eternal

Plastic Noise Marines

A Noise Marine Lord

A Noise Marine Champion drummer

A Noise Marine Dread

 

Doomrider

Slaangors

Hedonite Cultists

[Angel of Death]

strange as it may seem from a slaanesh player, I would actually want some slaanesh units that actually are more badass.

dont get me wrong, many slaanesh units arent too soft, but it would give it more edge if there were some really dark and 'lord of darkness' slaanesh units.

slaanesh is the one and only (half) female god. does that have to mean that all units have to be the girliest ones?

i mean, it is, but I think that having some terminators or some really badass daemon that gives khorne the creeps,

that would be so dice. and I still love all the feminine and sassy slaanesh units, most of them should be that way.

but. no more my little ponies. please. play more on the dark side of slaanesh, lord of darkness.

 

both the feminine side, and the dark side, of slaanesh, and you have a really cool combination.

[Evil Eye]

Actually, now that Dr_Ruminahui mentions it, I'd absolutely love a Sonic Predator upgrade sprue (just like how the Sisters of Battle got an upgrade sprue for their Rhino). Add that to my wishlist.

Yes! Maximum 3.5 edition goodness! That or/and a sonic Vindicator, that replaces the demolisher cannon with a MASSIVE doom siren/sonic cannon of some description.

[lansalt]

Plastic noise marines

 

Plastic MKIV Sonic Dreadnought

A few Elites / HQs, make the Noise Marine with electric guitar a unique character instead of a grunt (Is still sold in GWs site!)
 

[Irate Khornate]

 

 

Actually, now that Dr_Ruminahui mentions it, I'd absolutely love a Sonic Predator upgrade sprue (just like how the Sisters of Battle got an upgrade sprue for their Rhino). Add that to my wishlist.

Yes! Maximum 3.5 edition goodness! That or/and a sonic Vindicator, that replaces the demolisher cannon with a MASSIVE doom siren/sonic cannon of some description.

One could almost call it a "Boom Box"

[RolandTHTG]

A few Elites / HQs, make the Noise Marine with electric guitar a unique character instead of a grunt (Is still sold in GWs site!)

 

The one I got is being used as my dark apostle for that reason.

[Marshal Loss]

Clutching at straws, but hopefully this is a good sign for the future. :P

[Slaanbull]

Clutching at straws, but hopefully this is a good sign for the future. :P

I had such a hard time understanding his first sentence, but Valrak follows artwork_of_warhammer on Instagram who in turn shared one of Mikhail Saviers' (@mikhailsavier on IG so you can see the artwork Valrak mentions) pictures a couple of days ago. I actually thought that Mikhail was done doing work for GW, don't know where I got that impression? But his earlier specifically Emperor's Children artwork is very cool, so we can hope whatever is in the works is closer rather than further away!

 

Honestly, plastic noise marines and maybe a vehicle upgrade sprue would be everything I dare wish for. An upgrade to our codex in line with the other 9th edition books would give me much to work with for such a long time, even just the two wounds alone would rejuvenate my different lists in so many ways..!

The possibility of getting a Thousand Sons equivalent upgrade for the IIIrd Legion is more than my fried neurons can handle!

Edited July 21, 2021 by Slaanbull

[Marshal Loss]

 

I had such a hard time understanding his first sentence, but Valrak follows artwork_of_warhammer on Instagram who in turn shared one of Mikhail Saviers' (@mikhailsavier on IG so you can see the artwork Valrak mentions) pictures a couple of days ago

I'm literally using it as my avatar mate :P Appreciate you collating it into a single post for other folks though as even I hadn't actually seen the daemon + marine one from 2017.

 

In my mind the art isn't necessarily what's interesting, as gorgeous as it is, it just prompted the question & response - it's possible that Mikhail's public EC art pieces were done as testers (as there's no way his GW art would be posted step by step prior to release, they run a tight ship) but he's also stated that they're one of his favourite factions anyway so it might just be something he does for fun.

 

Valrak clearly knows something though. Hopefully this lines up with my theory that the 9th ed CSM book has been delayed because they're planning something major for EC and/or WE, but as you say, even a Noise Marine box on its own would be awesome. Maybe 2022 will be our year.

[Slaanbull]

I'm literally using it as my avatar mate :P Appreciate you collating it into a single post for other folks though as even I hadn't actually seen the daemon + marine one from 2017.

 

In my mind the art isn't necessarily what's interesting, as gorgeous as it is, it just prompted the question & response - it's possible that Mikhail's public EC art pieces were done as testers (as there's no way his GW art would be posted step by step prior to release, they run a tight ship) but he's also stated that they're one of his favourite factions anyway so it might just be something he does for fun.

 

Valrak clearly knows something though. Hopefully this lines up with my theory that the 9th ed CSM book has been delayed because they're planning something major for EC and/or WE, but as you say, even a Noise Marine box on its own would be awesome. Maybe 2022 will be our year.

Haha, so you are!

[Marshal Loss]

 

Honestly, as annoying as I found a reprint of our rules in Charadon is. (the relics and stratagems are now locked in the 40k App even though they're from 8th edition books on my shelf.) It is also a future proofing of a CSM codex without EC and WE

In case you weren't aware, re: future proofing, Disciples of Be'lakor has Emperor's Children and World Eaters listed as equivalents to DG/TS, despite no relevant units, which may be indicative of the future (or could be overzealous rules writing).

 

It's only a matter of time until we get something - hopefully it's this edition.

[Angel of Death]

Hidden Content

As much as I love Noise Marines (and don't get me wrong, I LOVE Noise Marines) I wouldn't want every single unit to just be "X but with sonic weapons!". Not to say I wouldn't want some sonic weapons on other units; I've got my WIP counts-as Achilles sonic Land Raider after all, but more themes would be nice.

In terms of stuff I want to see though:

 

  A)  CSM bikers need an overhaul anyway but special EC bikers would be awesome. Maybe possessed bikers? And of course the return of the DOOMRIDER.

 

   B )  A "Kaleidocannon" weapon family, that is, specialized las-weapons that use psychedelic beams of light which can cause seizures and hallucinations in the foe (in addition to good old fashioned death).

 

   C)  "Junkie Marines"- CSMs so out of their mind on combat drugs they're more like animals than soldiers. More a force to be unleashed than troops to be directed, however are immune to pain, psychology and are terrifying up close.

 

   D)  A specialist daemon engine called the "Sin Eater"- it grinds up victims in close quarters and distills their remains into a cloud of psychotropic gas that makes the followers of Slaanesh even nastier whilst everyone else starts having brain hemorrhages. Particularly nutty EC can inject/drink this stuff directly from the engine and gain even greater strength, though it doesn't always quite work out...

 

   E)  Corrupted Rapier gun carriers that swap out the usual weaponry for more esoteric armaments- sonic volley guns, heavy kaleido-cannons, chem-munition projectors, mind-scrambling "brainwave blasters" etc...

 

 

Of particular note, I had an idea for a host of DG-style Elite "mini-characters" (Foul Blightspawn and the like). Maybe 6, as it is the sacred number and also would go well with the 6 Circles of Sin in Slaanesh's realm. Some ideas I had for those were:

 

   1)  "Gilded Ones"- Representing the Circle of Avidity, these chaps are alchemists of sorts, using their craft to transmute materials into forms more pleasing to his whims. This can act in a support role, strengthening the armour and blades of allies, or they can work offensively, causing catastrophic damage to enemy war machines as their inner working turn to beautiful but fragile crystal.

 

   2)  "Meatmasters"- Representing the Circle of Gluttony, these guys are melee murder machines that can turn their foes into delicious canapes, either for their own benefit or their fellow Marines. Pretty simple and marries the damage and buffing unit types well, also cannibalism seems very EC.

 

   3)  "Disciples of Yrothys"- Representing the Circle of Carnality, these ranged specialists are basically evil Cupids. They can use two weapons- the Aphrodyth Projector, which is a chem-sprayer that drives those it hits mad with lust and causing them to fall on each other (in practice this results in the targeted unit taking wounds and potentially being rendered inactive for a period) and the Yrothis Dart Gun, which fires needles that cause the target to become unnaturally attractive to all around them (in practice this makes hitting the target, either at range or in melee, considerably easier if they've been darted. It could also cause the foe to take a test or else have to move towards and possibly even attack the target but that could get complex).

 

   4)  "Heralds of Arrogance"- Representing the Circle of Paramountcy, these blokes are equipped with warp-tainted vox-casters that broadcast a fanfare of what can only be described as weaponized ego-stroking. Foes suddenly become afflicted with what was described in the WHFRP as "heroic idiocy" and will be compelled to emulate the Charge of the Light Brigade as they all become utterly convinced they are invincible heroes. Functionally, this can be used to force the foe to try and charge or move towards the EC, also stripping them of cover bonuses.

 

   5)  "Troubadours of Torment"- Representing the Circle of Vainglory, these sods are the opposite of the Heralds of Arrogance. Using discordant, inaudible but palpable frequencies, they cause immense discomfort and paranoia in the foe, resulting in fumbles and blunders of all kinds. This would basically be the debuff hero, reducing the foe's ability to hit at optimal power. Combined with a Herald of Arrogance would be particularly nasty, as the enemy attempts a heroic charge, has a "Wait, what are we doing?" moment and then gets cut down by withering salvos of gunfire.

 

   6)  "Inertiomancers"- Representing the Circle of Indolency, these fellows are specialized psykers who use their powers to make the enemy tired. In fact, dead tired. And then dead. In practice, this would be another debuff hero focused on crippling mobility whilst also meddling with gunlines' ability to bring heavy weapons to bear (counting as having moved etc).

 

< Dr, Ruminahui: I edited it to make it a bit easier to read>

I played my first game with slaanesh today (daemons and EMC) and I completely wrecked face with possessed and bikers.

Bikers as it is right now get combi-bolters AND bolters so shoot 4 dice/model. Combine that with charge AND EMC keyword always-fights-first.

they could potentially become an extremely deadly unit, considering how strong bikers are with EMC keyword. atleast thats my impression.

also, speaking of regular bikers, you can give em combi-plasmas to like 3 models/unit or smth, to just destroyed space marine and armor.

 

all of that in its glory, I think an emperors children codex is not an impossible thing.

there is actually a high likelihood that a new EMC codex is gonna be released, I mean come on, slaanesh has only been given the sidekick role for far too long,

lets steal the show this time. give us some real badass units for slaanesh. Death, death! to the false emperor.

Edited July 25, 2021 by Brother Tyler
Long quote put in hidden tags.