Necron Assault Validity

[Prot]

So I'm trying to make competitive Necron lists. Naturally this keeps getting harder and harder. I do see an end of life to the Warrior blocks. It may have been something Necron armies were built to do but at this point I gotta say I think it's becoming harder and harder to make this work.

 

I'm starting to think of ideas to incorporate a larger assault foot print, but it's gotta be flexible and able to hang with the stronger assault armies. (I just don't think Warrior spam is going to be that great with every codex I see.)

 

I am wondering if you guys have tried this, and what you think the core of such an army should be, and perhaps the HQ set up, etc. I even wonder how many of our 'assault' based units are capable in this meta. 

 

Is anyone trying this? 

[dice4thedicegod]

I like having 6 skorpekhs (and making sure that I have a couple of cp spare for the -1 to wound strat)

 

I’ve never played as a novokh style melee list, so I don’t know about the Anrakyr/warrior blob efficiencies

 

I do think rad wreathed is largely a trap. Unless going heavy with flayed ones, I think obsec is far more likely to help you win the game

[Mordas]

I have been running 5-6 skorpekhs and buffed with a chronomancer to give them help surviving with the 5++, they are always doing work for me but you got to use them wisely.

 

I now plan to run a squad of 5-6 wraiths as well to counter on another flank. I have been encouraged to run Lychguard (shields) in a squad of 10, which I will be trying out soon once they are painted.

[Prot]

Lychguard seem good just because of Bodyguarding and the CORE status is quite nice for reanimation, etc. But I find they are too defensive. They work great in a shooty gunline list that forces the opponent to come at you. If you can get to mid table BEFORE your opponent, they have worked for me there as well, but the catch is that a really good assault army usually does far more damage, so if you get to the mid table after your opponent, there's a good chance you just hit a brick wall and fade.

 

I love the Skorpekh models, but I'm not sold on the Skorpekh lord. However they could be complimented with the Ophydian Destroyers. The problem is the Fast attack slot is heavily contested.

 

The good thing about the Ophydians is the ability to deep strike (for free) with a fairly small footprint. Being Destroyer Cult gives some minor advantages too. This could set up something a basic 'one-two' punch with something else... perhaps Skorpekhs? Or even Wraiths.

 

The Wraiths are alright but I haven't used them much in 9th just because as I came back to Necrons, I played a necron player who used them frequently and I just always seemed to kill them so quickly and maybe it was a bad match up, but it felt every army I was using could see them coming a mile away, and just removed the invuln and spanked them hard.

 

They are decent though, I'm just trying to weigh every option right now.

 

I'm thinking of using a C'tan as bait, buying some breathing space for less survivable units (I know it's swingy RNG but the 4++ can do some work sometimes from a distance).

 

Again Skorpekh Lord...looks cool but the HQ's are just a very crowded spot, and the Overlord has to be the back line lynchpin I think... as you need some shooting, even if it's basic troops and a couple of recently reduced Annihilation Barges or Canoptek units.

 

I am prepping 2 Chronomancers as they seem to be imperative for this kind of list? Any thoughts on that? Or even the HQ's for that matter?

[Captain Idaho]

I use 6 Skorpekh Destroyers and they do sterling work. A single unit, even with -1 to wound, is vulnerable however as the opponent will concentrate on them.

 

I think Flayed Ones in a unit of 15 to 20, alongside 6 Skorpekh and a Chronomancer, with potentially another melee threat, can be quite threatening and credible.

 

I also plan on getting 5-6 Spyders too! They are solid models in a unit that can mob something with D2 weapons. S8 to boot too :)

 

Top tier competitive? Not sure. I think the list I've built isn't easy to eliminate and can contest objectives, though as ever, dealing with Drukhari will be a challenge due to their Raider spam.

 

Regarding the Skorpekh Lord... yes I think he's rather lacklustre. He has a meagre amount of attacks for a weapon that hits on 3s and is okay, but paying points on him like you say is rather self indulgent.

Edited June 10, 2021 by Captain Idaho

[dice4thedicegod]

I think the skorpekh lord is either over costed or underserved by relics and maybe even warlord traits.

 

If you look at some of the things marine characters can take, then the skorpekh lord is very points inefficient. He does provide a nice big to destroyers… but it’s not a buff that they depend on.

 

If I was trying to build a really competitive list then I wouldn’t be looking to include the skorpekh lord. Which is sad - he’sa nice new model.

[Mr4Minutes]

Skorpekh lord us definitely a let down. Lokhust Lord is a good substitute if you’re looking for the rerolls to wound. He can also take the good relics, including Rez orb.

 

Skorpekh destroyers are a good counter charge unit, but I think the chrono is mandatory for them.

 

Necrons have good combat units, but more in the supplemental way then dedicated. We really lack a true bully unit like other codexes.

 

I’ve found Wraiths are a good unit to hit objectives on t2 after something like scarabs stand on them t1. Their hitting power and staying power (miss you 3++) isn’t anything to brag about, but their okay. The biggest disappointment for them is their dedicated buffs, +1A, +1 to hit, are hard to effectively utilize on them and their shooting weapons are to expensive to utilize the fall back and shoot.

[Marshal Loss]

Not super convinced Necrons have what it takes to revolve around a core that wants to be in melee with DG (etc) floating around. I don't think Necron melee units can carry the book.

[Karhedron]

My friend has been trying to run various flavours of Necrons against me and melee is a tricky area.

 

Triarch Praetorians and Ophydian Destroyers both seem quite fragile on the table. Each time I have encountered them, I have not struggled to delete them, even when fielded in large numbers. The lack of an Invulnerable save hurts.

 

Conversely, Canoptek Wraiths are a much more durable prospect. While their WS4+ is a bit lackuster, they will hang around much longer than the other two meaning they are more likely to get some telling hits in.

 

I haven't faced Flayed Ones but they seem more like skirmishers than a spearhead assault force.

 

The big hammer units are the C'tan shards. These things are downright scary and the Nightbringer in particular will munch through just about anything.

[VoceNoctum]

Skorpekh lord us definitely a let down. Lokhust Lord is a good substitute if you’re looking for the rerolls to wound. He can also take the good relics, including Rez orb.

I do wish the Skorpekh Lord (or Lokhust) was a Lord keyword with some ability to replace a Lord/ Overlord and still double up the Crypteks and some other things. There's also the stinginess with Core keyword and stuff. The Necrons seem to have been built around very specific builds, and of course future books (for other factions) will all anticipate the warrior blob and stuff, and have ways to counter it. Meanwhile, of course, there will not be Necron updates to counter the newer books. Just the nature of the beast I guess.

[Vermintide]

I've never been a big believer in Warrior spam anyway; it might seem like an "intended feature", but you wouldn't take an army of sixty Tactical Marines, so why does it suddenly seem like a good idea for Necrons? Reanimation is a bonus, not something to be relied upon. Thematically, Necrons are the Undead of 40k, but rules wise their units are too expensive to really lean into the same attrition playstyle.

 

Necron melee is good, though. These days I feel like we have more powerful melee than we do shooting, frankly. We have a serious ranged anti-tank weakness and most of our firepower is aimed at shredding chaff; but melee wise we have plenty of high strength, high AP. Lychguard and Skorpekhs have weapons comparable with thunder hammers, and we have the Nightbringer who will ruin absolutely anything. The trouble is a lot of the units themselves are either slow, fragile, or both. Wraiths have neither of these weaknesses, but they are something of a distraction carnifex and rarely pack the punch to prove as scary as they look on paper.

 

We do have Scarabs. They're the real tarpit and fire-soak, not Warriors. 75 points puts another 20 wounds on the table, and if the enemy doesn't dedicate something to removing them, they'll be on top of him tying something down in no time at all. I think these are vital to use tying up your enemy's biggest threats while you position your own units. We also have buffing units like the Technomancer, who can take the Phylacterine Hive and become our own pocket Chief Apothecary. Reanimation is a problem for multi-wound models, but the Technomancer can bring an additional one back every turn for free, which would be very nice on things like Skorpekhs/Lokhusts or Wraiths.

 

My main issue is the dynasty rules. From what I have seen so far in 9th, competitive players are well and truly stuck on that silver tide, Relentless Expansionist, Eternal Conqueror thing, and I can see why, but we have other options. Rad Wreathed has potential to be nasty, and I think Nephrekh is kind of overlooked. What's disappointing about the dynasties is that they seem to have been intentionally designed to lock you out of the most fun and natural feeling combos. Novokh is definitely a trap for melee armies, you get +1 to charges, but -1AP is a total waste when so many Necron melee weapons already have high AP. I am also of the opinion that the Protocols are a waste of time, so mixing detachments for different dynasty traits might be a better idea.

 

The perennial problem for Necrons keeping us from holding our own at the top-level is the fact everything is balanced against reanimation. At high end play you can't depend on it at all, but in more casual games, when it works as intended, it can be borderline unfair. If I wanted to go competitive I'd keep the troops pretty lean, load up on as many Scarabs as it's legal to take, and shamelessly lean on the Nightbringer.

 

Overall I don't think a purely melee Necron army is viable, but they do provide some punch. I think a mixed army is definitely the way to go, the difficulty is finding much synergy within the tangled mess of rules we currently have.

[Prot]

I agree, it's a bit of a tangled mess of various abilities, with some gaping holes and a fundamental mechanism that is extremely hard to use right now. 

 

I think this is the number one reason all you see at the competitive tables is Warrior blobs; it's the only way to attempt to maximize that mechanism.

 

I do find I'm trying to include the Void Dragon just because he looks cool, but with his inclusion the Wraiths make more sense and it's a lot of AP denying armour there, and to a degree both units have to be dealt with and have okay speed. 

 

Skorpekhs have to be in there for cool factor as well! (I plan on using 5 to stay under blast abilities - especially with Plasmaceptors in the wild.)

 

So far I've widdled the core of the army (the back field) to:

- Overlord on foot

- Immortals with Tesla x 5 (x2)

- 10 Warriors (really doesn't matter the type.)

- Cryptothralls... a no brainer for actions.

 

And to assist that core, and block out some deepstriking for anti tank I have: 2 Doomstalkers. Since this is a good 280 pts, I'm trying to figure out if it's worth it. Yes, they are so ridiculously swingy, but the rest of my list is basically Assault oriented after this point!

 

- Assault element:

HQ:

Lokust Lord: Orb (not sure which unit he will follow to use Orb on) Voltaic staff

Chronomancer: Veil, (Not sure of Arkana)

Technomancer: (Fail Safe Overcharger?)

 

C'tan Void Dragon

Lychguard

Skorpekh x5

 

Scarabs

Scarabs

Wraiths (5)

 

 

Now that puts me over my limit by approximately 55 pts. and I don't get to use my Ophidian Destroyers, which I really wanted to deep strike in for some mayhem. Also I need to find another 75~ on top of that because I have become addicted to the Hexmark Destroyer. His trickery and ability to deep strike nearly anywhere, and potentially intercept is very good.

 

I may have to drop something here as it doesn't quite fit.

 

Not sure about Dynasty abilities either. A pregame move with this kind of list would be pretty huge though.

 

Thoughts?

[Mr4Minutes]

My opinions here, based off my local games.

 

I am just not a fan of Cryptek Arkana. It just does not feel impactful for the points spent.

 

Have you considered dropping the Doomstalkers for 3 Lokhust Heavy Destroyers? I’ve been using them in my last few games and they are very consistent in destroying one vehicle a turn. They don’t have the ceiling of Doomstalkers, but are far more efficient. I usually always use the 1cp auto wound strat (1 hit automatically wounds) and then a regular Reroll to get the wounds thru. They’ll also like the L Lord reroll.

 

I’m also not sure if the orb is a good choice. The squads you’d want to use them on are also most likely to be focused to dead before you get to use it. They’re also 3w models, so even if you’re trying to return 4 of the 5, statistically you’re still only getting one.

 

A C’tan is always such a hard choice to add. Your essentially giving up 2 threat pieces to take one. You could get another 5 model wraith or Skorpekh unit and your ophydians for Void Dragon. I personally prefer more units to trade in a tournament list. Playing friends or more casual competitive I’d take the Void Dragon.

 

The 6” move plus obj sec could be the choice here. You don’t have a lot of forward moving obj sec, so giving yourself the ability to get to mid board quicker and the ability to hold objectives sounds good.

[Get Thokt]

So, a good way to start off is by taking a look at what's been working at the GT/Major level for Necrons.

 

So far we have 3 top lists for both April and May.

 

Look into those 6 lists and pick out any commonalities. Get an idea of what roles those units are playing and what other gaps you may want to fill with other units. I think that is a good start

 

https://www.40kstats.com/topfactionlists

 

Scroll down to find Necrons section. I'd say the last 4 months of lists are relevant

[Xenith]

 

Have you considered dropping the Doomstalkers for 3 Lokhust Heavy Destroyers? I’ve been using them in my last few games and they are very consistent in destroying one vehicle a turn. They don’t have the ceiling of Doomstalkers, but are far more efficient. I usually always use the 1cp auto wound strat (1 hit automatically wounds) and then a regular Reroll to get the wounds thru. They’ll also like the L Lord reroll.

 

 

I'd agree the heavy Destroyers look great. You can get 4 Heavies for the cost of 2 doomstalkers, right? so 2x2 using the same number of slots. After that you're comparing 2D6 shots to 4, with BS, they come to average 3 hits each, same number of wounds, but then you have D3d3 vs Dd6. Basically a 'guaranteed' 6Damage vs an average of 4. If you use the doomstalkers, you really need a Technomancer there to give them +1 to hit...or get another?

 

What's the auto wound strat? There's a 1 CP one that lets a 6 to hit auto wound, but that's a long way off. 

[Daimyo-Phaeron Lenoch]

Technoracular Targeting, turn one hit into a guaranteed wound, 1CP. Especially useful for turns when you need to make sure a kill shot goes through but you had to use your reroll already.

[Prot]

So, a good way to start off is by taking a look at what's been working at the GT/Major level for Necrons.

 

So far we have 3 top lists for both April and May.

 

Look into those 6 lists and pick out any commonalities. Get an idea of what roles those units are playing and what other gaps you may want to fill with other units. I think that is a good start

 

https://www.40kstats.com/topfactionlists

 

Scroll down to find Necrons section. I'd say the last 4 months of lists are relevant

 

I looked at 3 of the lists and there isn't a lot of shock in those lists, and unfortunately they are following the theme of basing the strategy around the Silent King which is not something I want to do right now.

 

There was another guy in a podcast recently that won a GT with an assault Necron list, and that list was a lot closer to what I was looking at for units.

 

So I'm going to stick with some of my ideas, and some of those ideas are admittedly based on rule of cool which isn't always the most efficient, and of course this is based on models I own.

 

So later today I will be testing this list against new Sisters. I expect a beating, but this is going to be quite a different list for me.

[Prot]

Side Question for feedback:

 

- I have made room for 1-2 Chronomancers. Should I just stick with 1, or do you think a Technomancer (or other Cryptek) is needed? It's hard to say, but I guess the bigger question here is about Arkana. Is there a go to for an assault style list like this?

Edited June 14, 2021 by Prot

[Daimyo-Phaeron Lenoch]

I think if you want to do a cryptek assault list one thing you can do is Spyder claw Spam and bring technomancers with control nodes to boost their hit rolls. If you’re feeling meme-y, or particularly stompy. Either that or scarab spam.

[Mordas]

So on the weekend I had my 5th game in 9th with Necrons and managed to get my first win!!!

 

Like my earlier post, I went ahead with the 5x Wraith and 5x Skorpekhs (with chronomancer), sadly my melee side of the list hit a bit of a brick wall against the Drukhari. They managed to get the first turn and their tantulus managed to hit the Skorpekhs hard losing 2 straight off of the bat, having dealt with the tantulus in return I managed to charge the remaining Skorpekh's now fully buffed into the Incubi passengers. This is the first time my Skorpekhs have let me down, they failed to churn through enough incubi and in return Drazar cut them all down with ease.

 

The wraiths on the other hand ran into Talos' and for most of the game tied them up with the fall back and charge options, I took whipcoils and they just couldn't get through.

 

All in all the rest of the list did the hard work and the melee just couldn't push through as I had intended, had my wraiths and Skorpekhs been on opposite flanks it would have been much more favourable. They did however hold up key units for a few turns allowing my warriors and ghost arks to take the objectives. I still want to try Lych guard next - 10 on the painting table, but happy with how these units held up in the greater scheme of things.

 

As for the rest of the list I had brought a monolith, which was fun to play with (tantulus v monolith game) but without an invulnerable save I just can't see them doing any work. The big winner for me was the Lokhurst heavy destroyers, I took 3 units of 1 as I had the space in my battalion, using the custom dynasty trait with superior artisans really helped boost the reliability of their single shots. I can now really see myself taking 6 in 3 squads of 2 with the same trait, the movement / range / re-roll 1 wound will boost them a lot especially with the new points drop.

 

The next thing to try is the 10 Lychguard, but not sure if I want to run them up the board or utilise them with a character and the VoD to take them into range rather than run them up the board.

[Captain Idaho]

Cryptek Arcana Fail-Safe Overcharger combined with a Technomancer with the control node works but it's catch is a slow moving support character.

 

You can try it with the Canoptek Cloak or a Chronomancer but then there's the reliance on WS4+. Not a terrible thing but still not ideal.

[dice4thedicegod]

I doubt it’s efficient to make them assault specialists.

 

My planned build for next game is a couple of groups of 9 scarabs and one spyder (so 195 points for each group) with obsec dynastic trait, as objective grabbers. The rest of the list can worry about being killy .

Edited June 15, 2021 by dice4thedicegod

[Prot]

I had a great game last night.



So I went with my list based on the 6 Skorpekhs and Ophidians with a small base of troops.

It worked very well but I believe I got very very lucky in 1) going first, 2) hopping my 20 warriors forward on T2, and then by advancing the Skorpekhs and Skorpekh lord gave me a very high pressure point that the Sisters couldn't handle through out the game.

I have to say my opponent is a seasoned SoB player, however he is really struggling to find a groove with the new codex and this was his first game with it. I will say this might have swung completely the other way if SoB went first.

Skorpekhs killed his new HQ... some fancy bigger unit in a female robot suit? (I think she was a supreme commander). But in that turn I charged about 6 units at once....

I had to make a tough choice at this point but thought that the war of attrition would be won by the Necrons if I just kept assaulting. It was one gigantic wave.... BUT my Skorpekh lord was going against his Repentia (I think?) and the Repentia interrupted my Lord (after the Skorpekh squad destroyed his Supreme Commander). And those Repentia just destroyed the Lord easily even with buffs, and the Strat for -1 to wound rolls... It was brutal overkill and surprised me. But I had no choice in the matter; they have a Strat to fight even if they died before swinging so I went first with the Skorpekh squad.

Everywhere else I had him tied up... tanks were dead, my C'tan took out a few units... heck I think I may have had 7 or 8 assaults going on T2!

Definitely going first was massive. Also as a side note I always find those Doomstalkers to be super swingy and I often think of pulling them out of my list (I have 2). Especially since the (more survivable and shootier) Annihilation Barges just got cheaper.

But in this game, and I confess this has never happened for me, in T1 I got full high power shots, 5 of them , to wound one of those big Cathedral tanks which did 15 damage in one volley. This never happens, but it did, and of course it is huddled in the SoB lines, and it explodes... killing his Hospitalier and damaging about 5 other units around it!

I mention this so that the win is taken with a grain of salt, but it was an extremely one sided game which I've never had with my Necrons before. I'm used to marching large squads around the board, and just playing the waiting game with survival being my key to victory. This felt like I was playing my White Scars except... with no bio-matter. lol

[Plague _Lord]

I use these assault units in my list:

 

3x spyders with full guns and a gloom prism - great unit for taking out screens with shooting and then hitting hard in melee.

3x skorpeks - I don't use a big blob so they don't get targetted. I use them more as a midfield backup or backfield counter unit. They have killed DS terminators.

Skorpek Lord - I love the model and he's ok. He runs around with the skorpeks and a unit of destroyers, helping whatever flank needs help.

4x Wraiths - they are fast and moderately tanky. Don't expect to kill anything, they are here to tie stuff up and make the opponent panic while you take the midfield.

 

As I use a custom dynasty with armywide obsec and the 6'' scout move, the assault elements are in my opponents face really fast, while warriors, scarabs and immortals take up midfield objectives.

 

Last game I played vs black legion, I also had the opportunity to charge 10 immortals into a 20man bloodletter blob. Along with the before-charge shooting they managed to almost wipe the squad. Not bad.

[Captain Idaho]

Interesting win there Prot. Looks like you kept the pressure up on him. Cool you took out Morvenn Valh as she is really powerful if given the chance to swing.

 

Those Skorpekh Destroyers are really powerful on the offense so it's good to see. What Dynasty did you use in the end?

 

You mentioned the Annihilation Barge is cheaper... I didn't think it did get a points drop? It's definitely a reasonable bit of kit in my view. Has a lot of shots and against new Orks and Drukhari it'll be useful.