New Combos

[L30n1d4s]

Many reviews are now out for the SoB Codex, so what new combos are people coming up with in their competitive lists so far?

 

 

A few that jump out to me are as follows:

 

1) Zephyrim (Bloody Rose) buffed by Morven Vahl and War Hymns -- So, with their new upgraded profiles, Bloody Rose Zephyrim get 4 x S4 AP-4 Dmg1 attacks on the charge.... add in the new War Hymn for +1A, their +1 to Wound Strat, and Vahl's full re-rolls to Hit/to Wound and a full squad of 10 is putting out 51 attacks, all with +1 to Wound and full re-rolls on WS3+. Against anything T7 and below, they are getting 45 hits and 34 wounds at AP-4, so unless their target has an exceptional Invul and/or FNP ability, they ought to kill almost anything they charge (i.e. even against a Bladeguard Vet squad with Transhuman, they kill an average of 5-6 models a single round of fighting). 

 

 

2) Retributors with max Heavy Flamers -- Supported by the new "universal" Strat that allows them to get 6 shots a piece, plus Armorium Cherubs, a single squad can put out 36 x S6 AP-1 auto-hits at 12" on a turn that it dismounts from a Rhino. Add in a +1 to Wound via the Superior shooting the same target with a combi-Melta and the "Holy Trinity" Strat and you have a unit that can, on average, kill 2-3 Dark Eldar Raiders in a single volley (or, alternatively, kill an entire 20 Necron Warrior phalanx by itself).

 

 

 

Anyone else have combos that they are excited to try out?

 

[Casual Heresy]

I’m still studying the book but the one thing that leaps out at me is the Dogmata’s ability to let units within 6” perform an action and still shoot. A potentially huge boon.

[Maschinenpriester]

Many reviews are now out for the SoB Codex, so what new combos are people coming up with in their competitive lists so far?

 

 

A few that jump out to me are as follows:

 

1) Zephyrim (Bloody Rose) buffed by Morven Vahl and War Hymns -- So, with their new upgraded profiles, Bloody Rose Zephyrim get 4 x S4 AP-4 Dmg1 attacks on the charge.... add in the new War Hymn for +1A, their +1 to Wound Strat, and Vahl's full re-rolls to Hit/to Wound and a full squad of 10 is putting out 51 attacks, all with +1 to Wound and full re-rolls on WS3+. Against anything T7 and below, they are getting 45 hits and 34 wounds at AP-4, so unless their target has an exceptional Invul and/or FNP ability, they ought to kill almost anything they charge (i.e. even against a Bladeguard Vet squad with Transhuman, they kill an average of 5-6 models a single round of fighting).

 

 

2) Retributors with max Heavy Flamers -- Supported by the new "universal" Strat that allows them to get 6 shots a piece, plus Armorium Cherubs, a single squad can put out 36 x S6 AP-1 auto-hits at 12" on a turn that it dismounts from a Rhino. Add in a +1 to Wound via the Superior shooting the same target with a combi-Melta and the "Holy Trinity" Strat and you have a unit that can, on average, kill 2-3 Dark Eldar Raiders in a single volley (or, alternatively, kill an entire 20 Necron Warrior phalanx by itself).

 

 

 

Anyone else have combos that they are excited to try out?

What about that flamer squad on a squad of 4 morifiers or pentinent engines?

The could have up to 8 flamers. But of course the holy trinity strat would not work here. Also a problem is, that they would not benefit of order traits like As.

[SkimaskMohawk]

You actually get more output from the zepherym with Passion, tear them down and the rest of the buffs and fishing for 6s to hit. You get something like 53 or 54 wounds.

 

Armory cherubs don't allow both being burned at once any more, so you cap out at 30 hits at once from the retributors. Even with holy trinity, mortifiers/engines get more mileage, but you can just more flamers for the same points.

[Purifying Tempest]

You actually get more output from the zepherym with Passion, tear them down and the rest of the buffs and fishing for 6s to hit. You get something like 53 or 54 wounds.

 

Armory cherubs don't allow both being burned at once any more, so you cap out at 30 hits at once from the retributors. Even with holy trinity, mortifiers/engines get more mileage, but you can just more flamers for the same points.

The wording on armorium cherubs does permit both to be fired.  It outlines the timing of how each cherub may be fired (once per game), and then goes on to clarify that this action can be taken twice per game if two cherubs are present.  There is nothing that caps or restricts cherub use to once per turn.

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

 

You actually get more output from the zepherym with Passion, tear them down and the rest of the buffs and fishing for 6s to hit. You get something like 53 or 54 wounds.

 

Armory cherubs don't allow both being burned at once any more, so you cap out at 30 hits at once from the retributors. Even with holy trinity, mortifiers/engines get more mileage, but you can just more flamers for the same points.

The wording on armorium cherubs does permit both to be fired. It outlines the timing of how each cherub may be fired (once per game), and then goes on to clarify that this action can be taken twice per game if two cherubs are present. There is nothing that caps or restricts cherub use to once per turn.

It straight up says that once per game in the shooting phase, one model gets to shoot again. If you have two then it can be used twice per game. Nothing gives permission to have more than one model use it in a shooting phase, just the amount of times it can be used per game.

[Purifying Tempest]

 

 

You actually get more output from the zepherym with Passion, tear them down and the rest of the buffs and fishing for 6s to hit. You get something like 53 or 54 wounds.

 

Armory cherubs don't allow both being burned at once any more, so you cap out at 30 hits at once from the retributors. Even with holy trinity, mortifiers/engines get more mileage, but you can just more flamers for the same points.

The wording on armorium cherubs does permit both to be fired. It outlines the timing of how each cherub may be fired (once per game), and then goes on to clarify that this action can be taken twice per game if two cherubs are present. There is nothing that caps or restricts cherub use to once per turn.

It straight up says that once per game in the shooting phase, one model gets to shoot again. If you have two then it can be used twice per game. Nothing gives permission to have more than one model use it in a shooting phase, just the amount of times it can be used per game.

 

 

Nothing prohibits it either.  You can use the "Once per game" activity of firing 1 weapon an additional time "twice per game".  Each cherub has a unique sequence that has to be resolved, and they can be resolved back-to-back in the same activation of the unit.  If they wanted to act as a 1 cherub per activation or shooting phase, it would explicitly say "only one cherub may be used per shooting phase" or "max 1 per turn".  This wording is horrible, but all 9th wording has become VERY verbose to remove ambiguity.

 

"Once per battle, in your shooting phase, after this unit has shot, one model in this unit can immediately shoot with one of its ranged weapons again."

 

There's the actual affect.  No timing restricting it to once per phase or activation or anything.  Just all of the quantifiers it looks for (have I done this before this battle, is it the shooting phase, and did this unit just shoot?).

 

"If this unit has two armorium cherubs, it can use this ability twice per battle."

 

An addendum to treat how having two cherubs changes the above.  There is no timing restriction to say you cannot use this ability back-to-back in the same sequence, just simply saying the above can be used up to twice per battle instead of once.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Ya, nothing lets you get around the one model per phase part. That's the actual part prohibiting multiple uses and something you don't address at all.

[Purifying Tempest]

Ya, nothing lets you get around the one model per phase part. That's the actual part prohibiting multiple uses and something you don't address at all.

 

The one model is part of the effect, not the timing or activation requirement.  It is describing the effect of the action in very clear terms so that people don't try to confuse it with "Yeah, each model gets to fire its weapon again".  You know that when you activate that action, only one model gets to shoot 1 weapon again.  Also, the argument would exist in that interpretation: what would stop two different models in the same unit benefit from an armorium cherub?

 

Have I done this once per game?  Yes, but I have a second Cherub.

Is it the shooting phase?  Yes

Did this unit just shoot?  Yes

Has this model shot more than once?  "Well, this one hasn't"

 

Even then, the logic doesn't state that this unit may fire its weapon one additional time this turn, it simply says again.  AKA: this gun can shoot n+1 times this turn, where n is the number of times it has fired when this ability is used.  I had to look at it again, this action only looks at the unit for two distinct things:

1) Does it have 2 cherubs.

2) Did the unit just activate to shoot

 

Everything else is strictly model level.  So even at the least permissive interpretation, if you have 2 Rets with MMs and 2 Cherubs, both Rets can individually benefit from 1 cherub.  But by the wording as I see it, there is nothing to prevent 2 cherubs from being consumed by the same model in the same shooting phase.

Edited June 14, 2021 by Purifying Tempest

[SkimaskMohawk]

That's just not how it works. Saying that that "one" isn't a restriction is making things up and arbitrary when compared to the rest of the "one/once" in the same sentence.

 

You also just made up the "this model part". It's not "has this model shot more than once" it's "has one model shot more than once".

 

Youre just flat out ignoring what "one model" means. You can't stack two cherubs on a single retributor to bust out 3 shots.

[Purifying Tempest]

That's just not how it works. Saying that that "one" isn't a restriction is making things up and arbitrary when compared to the rest of the "one/once" in the same sentence.

 

You also just made up the "this model part". It's not "has this model shot more than once" it's "has one model shot more than once".

 

Youre just flat out ignoring what "one model" means. You can't stack two cherubs on a single retributor to bust out 3 shots.

 

Well, okay then.  I don't think I can say anything that hasn't already been said, but I think your interpretation is a bit restrictive and adding quantifiers that do not exist in the meaningful places.

 

The template is now: <activation prerequisites> <effect>.  The quantification of "one" that you're incredibly hung up on is in the effect portion of the rule, not the activation.  This is pretty much the standard templating used through all of 9th edition so far.

 

I can only put out the information for you to analyze and hopefully alleviate the consternation that you're feeling for how you read a rule and how it impacts your toys   And fortunately, in this game, you are absolutely free to ignore what a flapping head on the internet says!

Edited June 14, 2021 by Purifying Tempest

[SkimaskMohawk]

There is no template. That's another thing you're just making up.

[ThePenitentOne]

So the Goons say "seems to indicate a limit of one cherub per turn" - Like they're inclined to go with Skimask's interpretation, but they recognize enough ambiguity that they can't commit. In the Tabletop Titans batrep, I'm pretty sure Adrian burns both Cherubs on a single unit at the end of his first turn.

 

Send the question off to the FAQ team; if we don't, they could miss it.

[Lemondish]

I'm trying my hardest to understand why people think you can't use two cherubs in the same turn, but I'm really not following.

[Halandaar]

I'm trying my hardest to understand why people think you can't use two cherubs in the same turn, but I'm really not following.

 

No I can't see it either; the only restriction is on the amount of times per battle you can use it, which is once if you have one Cherub and twice if you have two. That's it. There's nothing there which dictates the amount of times per turn, or per phase it can be used, so I don't understand why people are trying to insert their own restrictions in to the rule.

[Progenitor]

I think people are getting hung up on "you can't use 2 cherubs to make one model shoots 3 times" when it's just as simple to think, that in a 5 man unit of Rets, you generally arm all of them the same, or split two weapon types, maybe, so you won't get one guy to shoot 3 times, you'll have 2 guys shooting twice as the Cherub applies to 2 different models.... at least, that's what makes sense to me and when I read it I didn't think it would be an issue to burn both in one turn either. 

Edited June 16, 2021 by Progenitor

[Montford]

I noticed that in a 2,000 point army (Strike Force) you can field up to 5 relics if you want to spend the CP for them.

[ThePenitentOne]

Yeah, it's cool to be able to field so many when there are relics designed for use at the squad level now; giving relics to superiors in units is awesome.

 

I like it for Crusade, although there you pay double RP; one for the requisition strat that allows the superior to take a relic, and then again to actually pay for the relic itself, since the BRB says that requisition strats can't grant warlord traits or relics.

[Blurf]

That's just not how it works. Saying that that "one" isn't a restriction is making things up and arbitrary when compared to the rest of the "one/once" in the same sentence.

 

You also just made up the "this model part". It's not "has this model shot more than once" it's "has one model shot more than once".

 

Youre just flat out ignoring what "one model" means. You can't stack two cherubs on a single retributor to bust out 3 shots.

So don't fire the same model? I'm with tempest on this one. It doesn't stop you from using 2 in a turn at all.

 

Back to combos: BR, Blazing Ire, Rapturous Blows, Blessed blade canoness( righteous rage if no Morvenn) With an honorguard of 8 sacresants and either a priest or Imagifier.

Edited June 16, 2021 by Blurf

[SkimaskMohawk]

Yea no offence but another member of the often-wrong squad chiming in and demonstrating that they didn't read the post they quoted doesn't mean much to me.

 

One model isn't a reference to a single particular model. It's the amount of models allowed to shoot. Otherwise they wouldn't have changed "a" (a synonym for any) to "one".

 

At the very least it's in need of a faq.

 

That's the last I'll say on the matter.

[Purifying Tempest]

I'm still liking the look of a Rhino loaded with 5 Dominions (either flamers or storm bolters, depending on the application/support strats) and 5 Sacrosancts or Repentia.

 

You could probably do the same with melta-minions, as well, but the chances of a high priority target being on the front line are a lot lower.  Though I think Argent Shroud will probably take this to another level, probably reminiscent of the 8th edition index rules.

 

Move up 6" pre-game, disembark the dominions for a 3+6" move, and that should get just about any of their weapons to within 12".  Advance if you're playing AS to get access to deeper units.  Cleansed by Fire, Blessed Bolts, Holy Trinity... should be plenty of options open to you depending on what you need and what the squad is kitted to do.

 

Then either of the other units (Repentia or Sacrosancts) can pop out and work on taking the middle of the table.  I think Sacrosancts will do this a bit better since they're better at holding territory than Repentia are.  Repentia will probably be about 9" away from the nearest target, which likely just got a hole punched in it by Dominions, so I think they lose a little ground here.  Especially considering the Repentia Superior won't be able to Driven Onwards that squad during the Command Phase.

 

Final icing on the cake would be moving that Rhino up another 12" after the passengers disembark and just crash it into the enemy lines somewhere to tie up some other portion of the opponent's line.

 

It is a lot of moving pieces, but I think Dominions are probably one of the strongest units in the codex now, especially now that they enable traditionally slower foot troops to get to the mid-field a turn sooner than normal with that pre-game 6" move.

 

And even if that craziness with AS trait not triggering after disembarking turns out to be true, which I doubt it will be, the ranges still work out... but you probably will only be able to reach frontline units instead of being able to point melta a little deeper into their deployment zone after the advance (though you can still do that at -1BS even if you don't get the AS trait after a disembark).

[Bonzi]

I would agree that Dominions are an amazing unit in the new dex. Just a couple small squads offers so much flexibility to a list. A squad in an Immolator can make sure you get in half range with your multimeltas on turn one or ensure your flamers can reach a target. AS Dom's on foot are assured of having their special weapons in range of something. I've also strongly considered using a couple squads as outflank threats. I know it wastes their special movement rules, but a squad of 4 flamers and/or a squad of 4 meltas is a small investment to guarantee your opponent needs to keep their units away from the flanks.

[taikishi]

Immolators are overcosted for what they do. I'd rather spend 40 less points (minimum) to get a Rhino and transport a second squad with the Dominions.

 

Couple of conviction/unit combos:

 

Guided by the Emperor's Will and Raging Fervor: You're not quite as good as Argent Shroud, but your melta weapons are more terrifying.

 

Rites of Fire and any unit with flamers but Seraphim: Dominions with 16" flamers. Retributors with 16" heavy flamers. Battle Sister and Celestian squads with flamers that compliment their bolter ranges. Immolators with 22" range flamers.

 

Not so good for Seraphim because now you outrange your bolt pistols.

 

Sacresants, Zephyrim, or maybe Seraphim with the Blessings of Sebastian Thor to tailor the unit for a specific role - especially if you're not playing Bloody Rose, because then you can give the first two units the Passion.

 

Most obvious vs. psyker-heavy armies: Purifying Recitations and Aegis of the Emperor. +3 to deny rolls so that you can naturally deny powers cast on a 5 or 6 (or more if you have means to add penalties to their roll), and auto-deny anything better on a natural 5+. If Witch Hunters weren't melee attacks only, I'd have included it as well.

[Purifying Tempest]

The thing I love most about the psychic defense, provided Grey Knights and Thousand Sons actually become a meta threat, is that you can get all of the above-mentioned bonuses AND THEN... if all of that fails... you still have a chance at the 4+ to deny for 1 CP.  Like if GW does take the Psychic Phase up a notch for the psychic dominant factions (include the rest of Chaos + Craftworlds, and Harlequins, and even Orks) and these kinda armies become more and more common... because they do represent a larger portion of the playerbase... man, there will be some salt in how well the Adepta Sororitas can hamper the psychic phase.

[Blurf]

Yea no offence but another member of the often-wrong squad chiming in and demonstrating that they didn't read the post they quoted doesn't mean much to me.

 

One model isn't a reference to a single particular model. It's the amount of models allowed to shoot. Otherwise they wouldn't have changed "a" (a synonym for any) to "one".

 

At the very least it's in need of a faq.

 

That's the last I'll say on the matter.

Well, you are currently the captain of the 'Never Right' Squad. There's no reading of this rule where what you're saying isn't wrong.

 

It doesn't need a FAQ, it's very clear. 

I'll concede this, the fact that they changed the wording of the rule and the fact that they've savaged retributors with every other change in this book, probably means that they intended to make this once per turn, but as usual GW's rules writing failed.

 

'Once per battle, in the Shooting phase, after this unit has shot, one model in this unit can immediately shoot one of its ranged weapons again' Describes the effect of one(1) cherub. That's its entire function. The word 'one' doesn't have the magic powers you seem to think it does. It's just there to let you know the whole unit isn't what's firing again. This is only what ONE cherub does (see THAT 'One' DOES matter).

'If this unit has two armorium cherubs, it can use this ability twice per battle.' Allows you to use two cherubs if you purchase two. This is a modifier on the 'once per battle' clause of the armorium cherub rule. It doesn't limit you too one phase, or one turn, or one battleround.

 

 

1 Armorium cherub allows you to fire 1 gun of 1 model in a retributor squad in the shooting phase, after the unit has shot. You can use two cherubs per game. That's the ENTIRE rule and not one word of it limits you to 1 per phase or per turn.

 

 

All they did was make a very simple effect 2 semi-discrete rules. One covers the function of Armorium Cherubs. One allows you to use 2 uses of armorium cherubs.

 

 

Your argument is based entirely on the feeling that GW wanted to nerf Retributors more (which has some basis in fact) but has little to do with the actual rules.

 

The only way it'll need a FAQ is if GW wrote it wrong.

Edited June 17, 2021 by Blurf