New Combos

[taikishi]

 

Yea no offence but another member of the often-wrong squad chiming in and demonstrating that they didn't read the post they quoted doesn't mean much to me.

 

One model isn't a reference to a single particular model. It's the amount of models allowed to shoot. Otherwise they wouldn't have changed "a" (a synonym for any) to "one".

 

At the very least it's in need of a faq.

 

That's the last I'll say on the matter.

'Often-wrong squad' That's cute. Especially considering 99% of what you say is just my stuff with a positive spin, damn near plagiarized from Goonhammer, or a Diet Caffeine free version of Taikishi. Of course, with THIS being your most original take, I kinda get it, lol.

 

A diet caffeine version of me? What's that supposed to mean? :(

 

 

 

 

It doesn't need a FAQ, it's very clear. You're just wasting time twisting yourself up because you read it wrong the first time through and won't admit it.

 

I'll concede this, the fact that they changed the wording of the rule and the fact that they've SAVAGED retributors with every other change in this book, probably means that they intended to make this once per turn, but as usual GW's rules writing failed utterly.

 

'Once per battle, in the Shooting phase, after this unit has shot, one model in this unit can immediately shoot one of its ranged weapons again' Describes the effect of one cherub. That's its entire function. The word 'one' doesn't have the magic powers you seem to think it does. It's just there to let you know the whole unit isn't what's firing again. The only way it stops you from using two cherubs is in it's 'once per battle' clause.

 

'If this unit has two armorium cherubs, it can use this ability twice per battle.' Allows you to use two cherubs if you purchase two. This is a modifier on the 'once per battle' clause of the armorium cherub rule. It doesn't limit you too one phase, or one turn, or one battleround.

 

You and purifying got caught up in one vs A and the number of models it lets you shoot this turn and all this irrelevant nonsense because you didn't realize the rule was describing the function of an armorium cherub, not defining the exact nature of a retributor model shooting twice.

 

1 Armorium cherub allows you to fire 1 gun of 1 model in a retributor squad in the shooting phase. You can use two cherubs per game. That's the ENTIRE rule and not one word of it limits you to 1 per phase or per turn.

 

 

All they did was split it up into a description of the effect of what a cherub does and what allows you to use two.

 

 

Your argument is based entirely on the feeling that GW wanted to nerf Retributors more (which has some basis in fact) but has little to do with the actual rules.

 

The only way it'll need a FAQ is if GW wrote it wrong.

 

I'll take this a step further as an old CCG player and someone who was a TO in their younger days:

 

Twice per battle literally means twice per battle. The armorium cherubs don't care if you use two from the same unit in a given turn OR if you use one from two different units in a given turn. All the Cherub cares about is if its own ability has been triggered or not. Nothing on the Retributor squad datasheet indicates that you're restricted to using one Armorium cherub per turn, nor is there anything in the 40K core rules that states abilities are once per turn as a default. If anything, it's the abilities themselves that state their once per phase/battle/turn restriction.

[Blurf]

 

 

Yea no offence but another member of the often-wrong squad chiming in and demonstrating that they didn't read the post they quoted doesn't mean much to me.

 

One model isn't a reference to a single particular model. It's the amount of models allowed to shoot. Otherwise they wouldn't have changed "a" (a synonym for any) to "one".

 

At the very least it's in need of a faq.

 

That's the last I'll say on the matter.

'Often-wrong squad' That's cute. Especially considering 99% of what you say is just my stuff with a positive spin, damn near plagiarized from Goonhammer, or a Diet Caffeine free version of Taikishi. Of course, with THIS being your most original take, I kinda get it, lol.

 

A diet caffeine version of me? What's that supposed to mean?

 

 

 

 

It doesn't need a FAQ, it's very clear. You're just wasting time twisting yourself up because you read it wrong the first time through and won't admit it.

 

I'll concede this, the fact that they changed the wording of the rule and the fact that they've SAVAGED retributors with every other change in this book, probably means that they intended to make this once per turn, but as usual GW's rules writing failed utterly.

 

'Once per battle, in the Shooting phase, after this unit has shot, one model in this unit can immediately shoot one of its ranged weapons again' Describes the effect of one cherub. That's its entire function. The word 'one' doesn't have the magic powers you seem to think it does. It's just there to let you know the whole unit isn't what's firing again. The only way it stops you from using two cherubs is in it's 'once per battle' clause.

 

'If this unit has two armorium cherubs, it can use this ability twice per battle.' Allows you to use two cherubs if you purchase two. This is a modifier on the 'once per battle' clause of the armorium cherub rule. It doesn't limit you too one phase, or one turn, or one battleround.

 

You and purifying got caught up in one vs A and the number of models it lets you shoot this turn and all this irrelevant nonsense because you didn't realize the rule was describing the function of an armorium cherub, not defining the exact nature of a retributor model shooting twice.

 

1 Armorium cherub allows you to fire 1 gun of 1 model in a retributor squad in the shooting phase. You can use two cherubs per game. That's the ENTIRE rule and not one word of it limits you to 1 per phase or per turn.

 

 

All they did was split it up into a description of the effect of what a cherub does and what allows you to use two.

 

 

Your argument is based entirely on the feeling that GW wanted to nerf Retributors more (which has some basis in fact) but has little to do with the actual rules.

 

The only way it'll need a FAQ is if GW wrote it wrong.

 

I'll take this a step further as an old CCG player and someone who was a TO in their younger days:

 

Twice per battle literally means twice per battle. The armorium cherubs don't care if you use two from the same unit in a given turn OR if you use one from two different units in a given turn. All the Cherub cares about is if its own ability has been triggered or not. Nothing on the Retributor squad datasheet indicates that you're restricted to using one Armorium cherub per turn, nor is there anything in the 40K core rules that states abilities are once per turn as a default. If anything, it's the abilities themselves that state their once per phase/battle/turn restriction.

 

You put more effort into your data analytics, is basically what that means. I'm going to go edit that post down because it was unnecessarily heated, though I feel understandably so considering Mr. Mohawk's dreadfully undeserved condescending tone.

 

The only argument I can see for not being able to shoot twice in the same phase is that you 'miss timing' on the second armorium cherub because it says 'after this unit shoots', but that caveat doesn't specify 'when' after this units shoots. It doesn't stop you from shooting with the unit, shooting with 3 more units, and then coming back to the Cherub. All of those events still fall under the umbrella of 'after this unit shoots'. Once the unit shoots, as long as its in the shooting phase (the other caveat of the rule) you can shoot again. It seems like it's just to stop you from shooting the cherub shots FIRST which would probably be over the top for a 5 point bonus.

 

Rule part 1 describes what 1 use of armorium cherub does. It establishes that it can only be used once per game, that it must be used in your shooting phase, that it can only be used after the unit shoots, that it(i.e. that specific cherub) can only effect 1 model, that that model can only fire 1 gun. That is every restriction that Armorium Cherub has. The second rule allows you to use 2 armorium cherubs per game. None of that would in any way would lock you out of shooting a second time in the same phase. 

 

There is no reasonable Rules as Written reading of this that would make Mr. Mohawk's interpretation correct. There is evidence that the wording change was RAI intended to further nerf Retributors, but as has been established it has failed to do so.

 

There are OTHER rules rabbit holes involving the defining the (currently undefined, most likely due to oversight) exact nature of named Wargear bonuses mechanically identical to Datasheet and Weapon abilities. Even then, the more nonsensical outcome would end up stopping you from using the second shot at all rather than making you wait a phase. Which is part of why I ended up determining it wasn't really worth pursuing.

Edited June 17, 2021 by Blurf

[SkimaskMohawk]

Sorry that my posting style isn't incoherent negativity and hyperbole, but I'd prefer to drive my opinion with some form of fact. Edited June 17, 2021 by Brother Tyler
Personal attack removed

[Purifying Tempest]

So if you use 1 armor cherub after the unit has shot... and assuming that interpretation is correct and you cannot fire the second since the timing is no longer after the unit has shot... does that mean I can only deep strike 1 unit per turn?

 

My understanding was: once an "end of whatever" trigger happens, you revert back to the "end of whatever" and things can resume triggering.  Or multiple things can trigger at the same time, all resolved by players in turn priority.  Regardless, saying the window CLOSES after using the cherub thus no timing for the second is just mechanically... wrong in every other phase of the game for the same mechanic.

 

And for the record: I never said you can only use one per turn, or even stated it was my opinion only one model could be affected by a cherub per turn.  I was saying that even the most awkward interpretation, you could say that because it says "one model" then there would be ample room to assume that 2 separate models could use a cherub in the same turn.  But my stance has always been that the cherubs only care about two things: how many times the unit can perform the action, and did the unit just fire.

 

I just got out of that argument because it was going nowhere and quite literally ended in "nuh uh".  Picking it up again just seems to be deadening the purpose of this thread.

[NKirkham24]

I had my first game with the new codex today and used Guided by the Emperor's Will and Raging Fervor as Order Minoris traits.

 

The melta was unbelievable. I had a retributor squad backed by Vahl which was insane. I honestly forgot the effects of full re-rolls.

 

I absolutely demolished a DG list, killing Mortarion in my 1st turn. My opponent did fluff a lot of saves but seriously the melta was mad!!!

[Emicus]

So if you use 1 armor cherub after the unit has shot... and assuming that interpretation is correct and you cannot fire the second since the timing is no longer after the unit has shot... does that mean I can only deep strike 1 unit per turn?

 

My understanding was: once an "end of whatever" trigger happens, you revert back to the "end of whatever" and things can resume triggering. Or multiple things can trigger at the same time, all resolved by players in turn priority. Regardless, saying the window CLOSES after using the cherub thus no timing for the second is just mechanically... wrong in every other phase of the game for the same mechanic.

 

And for the record: I never said you can only use one per turn, or even stated it was my opinion only one model could be affected by a cherub per turn. I was saying that even the most awkward interpretation, you could say that because it says "one model" then there would be ample room to assume that 2 separate models could use a cherub in the same turn. But my stance has always been that the cherubs only care about two things: how many times the unit can perform the action, and did the unit just fire.

 

I just got out of that argument because it was going nowhere and quite literally ended in "nuh uh". Picking it up again just seems to be deadening the purpose of this thread.

If you make the decision to use the cherubs simultaneously at the end, that works. One by one would not work.

 

So you gotta go all in instead of pansyfooting around playing slow!

[Montford]

I don't have any of the new models finished yet (maybe I can get the Dogmata and Palatine finished) but I'm hoping to get a game in this weekend with the new rules. I'm working on a Sacred Rose list which might be fun. I'll try and keep a 20 model Troop squad alive and generate as many Miracle Dice as I can. The new War Hymn are something I am really going to have to get used to using.

Edited June 18, 2021 by Montford

[Purifying Tempest]

I don't have any of the new models finished yet (maybe I can get the Dogmata and Palatine finished) but I'm hoping to get a game in this weekend with the new rules. I'm working on a Sacred Rose list which might be fun. I'll try and keep a 20 model Troop squad alive and generate as many Miracle Dice as I can. The new War Hymn are something I am really going to have to get used to using.

 

Good luck!  Looking forward to reading about your victorious march!

 

Edit: I have a 20-block of sisters with Storm Bolters that I am thinking of putting in my Crusade, so definitely let me know how you feel about yours.  I was thinking having them for Defenders + Blessed Bolts may be convenient, especially with the full-range rapid fire and exploding 6s from Sacred Rose.  Saving my Dominions for Flamers :D

Edited June 18, 2021 by Purifying Tempest

[ThePenitentOne]

Not exactly a combo, but I was just rereading rules for Incensor Cherubs and Simulacra:

 

- Cherubs are awesome- because the Cherub die is used "as if it was a miracle dice", using one doesn't prevent the unit from using an acual miracle dice

- Simulacra lost a little bit of shine, since they can no longer grant a unit the ability to use a second AoF themselves; they merely allow a unit to use an AoF when ANOTHER unit has already used one

 

Also noting the downside of PL; not paying cost per model means you pay for a full unit of dominions even if you just want one to hold the simulacrum without compromising your ride in the Immolator.

[Purifying Tempest]

Yeah, Melta Dominions with a Simulacrum in an Immolator in Crusade is an awkward build.  I just haven't done it as a result.  You're either paying 3PL for the singular model, or you're rolling without it, or just rolling with a 10-girl squad in a rhino, haha.  And I've actually been finding myself wanting to run Cherubs a little more in Sacred Rose... I remember reading something and it stood out to me that Cherubs got a little better.  I think it was the AoF agendas... looks like Cherubs contribute to that tally both in Matched play and Crusade agendas/secondaries.  Nothing world shattering, but something worth considering for the little things.  Looks like they can even convert to real MD with the 4+ Sacred Rose trait.  I'd have to look through again, I thought there was something that restricted them, but at first glance it looks like they got a little more meaningful interaction.

[ThePenitentOne]

Actually, I don't think they can convert to MD or score on the Agenda, so them allowing a unit to Miracle twice makes up for that a bit. I don't mind them not contributing to the Agenda- I think it would be pretty cheesy if they did, especially when you're playing PL, since there's literally no reason not to take them.

 

I was bummed the the MD for the Beacon of Faith WL trait can only be used by the WL. It does count toward the tally, AND it can be used even if another AoF has been performed that phase, which is nice since characters can't take Simulacra. Makes up for the fact that it's exclusive to the character. 

 

As for the build with the Doms: I'm definitely not taking the simulacrum- I'm committed to starting at 25 PL, and at that scale, you need the exta PL elsewhere. I may even Rhino up instead- for one point more than an Immo, I can get two Rhinos. The trick there is that I can use the Doms scout move to transport a second unit, which might be more advantageous than the simulacrum and the ablative wounds to the rest of the unit...

 

Pretty challenging to build a 25 PL list that highlights each Order's specialties.

[taikishi]

Here's a combo for you:

 

If you give a Dialogus or Hospitaller the Indomitable Belief Warlord trait, the keyword changes from <Order> to Adepta Sororitas, meaning all of your Sororitas Core units have their Shield of Faith improved by 1 regardless of Order. Potentially helpful for a multi-Order force and it also applies to Inspiring Orator.

[Joukernaut]

 

I don't have any of the new models finished yet (maybe I can get the Dogmata and Palatine finished) but I'm hoping to get a game in this weekend with the new rules. I'm working on a Sacred Rose list which might be fun. I'll try and keep a 20 model Troop squad alive and generate as many Miracle Dice as I can. The new War Hymn are something I am really going to have to get used to using.

 

Good luck!  Looking forward to reading about your victorious march!

 

Edit: I have a 20-block of sisters with Storm Bolters that I am thinking of putting in my Crusade, so definitely let me know how you feel about yours.  I was thinking having them for Defenders + Blessed Bolts may be convenient, especially with the full-range rapid fire and exploding 6s from Sacred Rose.  Saving my Dominions for Flamers

 

I have actually tried this the other day and it's a lot of fun. In a very competitive meta your mileage may vary because it's probably not the most efficient way to spend points and CP, but I played my friend's deathguard list with it and they held the middle objective for three consecutive turns while churning out 6 mortal wounds with ease every turn. 32 stormbolter shots will easily proc three sixes every time, even without rerolls. It's very CP hungry, but the mortal wounds are great against the right target. Unfortunately the rest of the boltershots were mostly wasted against plague marines in cover.

I chose to doublebuff them with my dialogus, giving them a 4++ and making them immune to psychic powers. This might be a core around wich I build the rest of the army. a block of 20 sisters is an impressive sight, is fun and will draw a lot of firepower away from the rest of your army if your opponent wants to get rid of them. If they choose to ignore them they will hold the middle objective the entire game.

[Montford]

In case someone has not yet mentioned it, a Dogmata with the Warlord Trait Indomitable Belief and the Hymn Litany of Enduring Faith will be able to keep one Unit of your choice always at a 5+ Invulnerable save and most of the time at a 4+ Invulnerable save. Give her the relic bolt pistol and you will have quite a good support unit. :)

[bkde]

As others have stated, the blob squad of girls is looking to be a staple.

 

I ran mine as Argent Shroud with 2x stormbolters, 2x multimelta with cannoness (blessed blade and mantle of ophelia), palatine (relic bolt pistol), Celestine (warlord) and Dialogus.

 

The Argent Shroud trait meant they could get midfield turn one to bunker down with Defenders of the Faith strat, and protect Celestine. Trait+canonness+palatine kept the multimeltas firing at full effectiveness and Dialogus was able to buff miracle dice for the unit, while the characters kept my opponent from getting too close.

 

Any shots going into the blob were shots not going into my penitent, backfield girl squads, doms or rets. Celestine was free to jump out and attack what she needed to.

 

Vahl and/or Dogmata might be the cheaper option, but I don’t own Vahl and the Dialogus was a great for playing with my miracle dice (I don’t think I rolled over a 3 all game...).

Edited June 20, 2021 by bkde