Marks of Chaos and Legion Traits

[techsoldaten]

Not a wishlist thread.

 

During lockdowns, stayed productive by working on other armies. Gave me a chance to think about what GW is doing with rules in 9th edition and how they could be applied to CSM. I kind of see the direction now, a few things stand out.

 

For Death Guard:

 

- They get Plague Companies, which offer benefits similar to Legions

 

- They get Contagions, which offer debuffs on every unit

 

For Deathwatch:

 

- They get Specialisms, which make them stronger against specific unit types

 

- They get multiple mid-game delivery options (Terminator teleportation, relics, deep strike, etc)

 

- HQ auras are truly excellent, there's 16 troop types that can go into Kill Teams, other benefits too numerous to spell out...

 

Got me thinking about Legions and Marks of Chaos, what they could realistically look like in 9th. The most disappointing part of the 8th edition Codex was Legions, we finally got them and some were much better than others (Alpha Legion, you know what I'm talking about.)

 

OTOH, the most disappointing thing (for me) about 9th edition has been detachments. I don't like paying for them with CP. Losing the old Supreme Command Detachment means we can't run as many HQs in most armies, regular troops will need to do more work.

 

Here's some thoughts about what we might expect from 9th ed Codex CSM.

 

For Legions:

 

- (Going by Plague Companies) Legion-specific rules will chiefly benefit specific units. Night Lords will get some kind of bonus for Raptors, Black Legion will get some kind of bonus for Terminators, World Eaters will get some kind of bonus for Berzerkers, Iron Warriors will get some kind of bonus for Daemon Engines, etc. 

 

- (Going by Kill Teams) Legion-specific rules will buff shooting. GW can't make the Bolter better, they can add range, improve damage against specific unit types, improve rate of fire, etc. Guessing this will happen b/c the Bolter is seriously outclassed by Primaris shooting, something needs to be effective against them.

 

For Marks of Chaos:

 

- (Going by Specialisms) Marks will afford actual bonuses as they did before 8th edition. They will be limited to infantry and will cost points.

 

- (Going by Delivery) MoS will allow units to advance without penalty.

 

- (Going by HQ auras) Auras will be specific to each Legion, center on to hit / to wound rolls. More HQs will have double auras (offensive bonus + leadership / something else bonus.) 

[Special Officer Doofy]

I tend to keep expectations low, that way I'm disappointed less often. I wouldn't expect too much more than redone legion traits and a mono bonus. And I doubt the traits will even effect every unit in the codex. Loyalist get it, but death guard got shafted and their Daemon engines still don't get their legion trait when somehow loyalist tanks get their's.

 

Most likely will get some new strats/relics and maybe redone warlord traits / spells, but some strats will get nerfed like Votlw and endless cacophony.

 

My hope is they actually do something with marks besides just a keyword for relics/strats. Maybe make that part of the mono bonus and they actually do something, giving people customization. Big question is why are they making chaos wait so long when their codex is one of the most needed. Perhaps they get redone kits or a few new units?

[techsoldaten]

Not sure why Chaos has to wait for a Codex. Was disappointed with 6th, getting the first Codex meant we were the victims of power creep for everything that came after.

 

But we are getting a chance to see what GW is doing with other factions. Most factions get some combination of a Legion-equivalent rule, a Specialisms-equivalent option, a "Rank" option for HQs / Elites (i.e. Master Apothecary), in addition to other faction-specific and mono-faction rules.

 

Tempting to speculate about how this translates to Chaos. We already have Marks, we already have Legions.  My guess is GW will make Marks functional again in 9th (and maybe make them cost points) because they're doing something similar with other factions. My guess is Legion Traits will be tailored to specific styles of play instead of offering global bonuses like always being in cover because that's what they're doing with other factions.

 

Would love to hear other people's thoughts. 

[BrainFireBob]

I agree marks will do something again. Beyond that...

 

Chaos is the fly in the Primaris ointment. At one point, I confess I expected all Firstborn tanks to go Chaos, and Firstborn infantry kits to gain a spikey bits sprue. It would finally fully distinguish the two forces in the cheapest way for GW. Now I don't know.

 

I think the Chaos superdoctrine was supposed to be their ability to mix and match, and you need 3k games for it to matter. They could mine their own past, I've thought recently, and make Legions the equivalent of the old Vet skills- bought on a per-unit basis, but restricted on buffs via the keyword system.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

One point I'd like to raise with the OP: I think you're making an unwarranted assumption with your comment that GW can't change the basic bolter for CSM.  We already have the warp bolter for DPs, I can certainly see them changing all CSM bolters to "corrupted bolters" or some such just to differentiate them from Firstborn bolters -- give them D2 or a point of AP, for example.  I can even see the warp bolter, at least in part, coming to non-DPs at least as an Assault 2 weapon.

 

As for specific units getting specific bonuses from Legion Traits, I feel like that's missing the mark.  If you compare to the Loyalist Chapter Tactics, the only one I can think of off the top of my head that specifically calls out a particular type of unit is Iron Hands, and that being vehicles.  What you're talking about really seems more the purview of stratagems -- think of Fury of the First (linked to Terminators) as an example.  Additionally, linking Legion Traits to particular unit types pigeonholes you in army building if you want to maximize the benefits of your Legion choice.  It makes much more sense to link those type of unit-specific rules behind options so that the player doesn't feel forced into a particular route when building an army.  For example, the Cult Leader WLT for Alpha Legion in F&F.  It's an option if you want to make Cultists slightly more lethal.  If that was part of the Legion Trait it might be broadly more useful, sure, but it would also basically eliminate CSMs as a Troop choice for Alpha Legion armies. Why would you ever take CSMs over Cultists at that point?  They way it's set up now, at least, you can choose if you want more lethal Cultists or not, and thus the determination between CSMs and Cultists is a tougher decisions between numbers versus lethality.

 

I will at least agree with you in principle that Marks should give some kind of benefit other than as an additional keyword.  I fondly remember the goods old days of +1T or +1I.  Now, whether they will or not is a question mark.  I'm not confident that they will confer an actual benefit in our new codex but I hope they do; I will say that they will continue to confer the keyword regardless however, as it's simply too convenient a mechanic to put aside especially when considering Prayers, Psychic Powers, and stratagems (and I'm pretty sure we'll see expanded Mark-specific strats).

[Marshal Loss]

One point I'd like to raise with the OP: I think you're making an unwarranted assumption with your comment that GW can't change the basic bolter for CSM.  We already have the warp bolter for DPs, I can certainly see them changing all CSM bolters to "corrupted bolters" or some such just to differentiate them from Firstborn bolters -- give them D2 or a point of AP, for example.  I can even see the warp bolter, at least in part, coming to non-DPs at least as an Assault 2 weapon.

This is a good point - after Sisters received their own special storm bolters & flamers (something that took me by surprise), I wouldn't rule anything out.

 

I do think marks will go back to giving a more tangible benefit beyond just being a key word. They're so bland and boring as is. Takes all of the flavour out of playing a marked army in the vanilla book - why do a Nurgle-themed CSM army when DG exist if the only Nurgle-specific thing you get is...a stratagem and a relic? It's already going to be difficult enough to compete with a fully-themed book as is, so effort needs to be put in. Undivided/Unmarked also needs to be a viable option.

 

Biggest question for me is what our "doctrine" or "contagion" monofaction system is going to be. Haven't a clue. Hope GW (have) come up with something good.

 

With regard to Legion rules, I am expecting that - rather than getting individual supplements - we'll get a single "Traitor Legions" supplement (like late 7th) that accompanies the main book. There are simply too many rules in the PA books to put into the CSM codex, and they're not going to roll us back to a single trait/wl trait/relic/stratagem like we were at the start of 8th.

[techsoldaten]

One point I'd like to raise with the OP: I think you're making an unwarranted assumption with your comment that GW can't change the basic bolter for CSM.  We already have the warp bolter for DPs, I can certainly see them changing all CSM bolters to "corrupted bolters" or some such just to differentiate them from Firstborn bolters -- give them D2 or a point of AP, for example.  I can even see the warp bolter, at least in part, coming to non-DPs at least as an Assault 2 weapon.

 

Sure, that's fair. GW could totally give CSMs a special Bolter.

 

TBH, it would probably be a good idea. Primaris have such a spectrum of range / damage / AP options, while CSMs have 24" AP 0 D1. Doesn't make sense.

 

I don't have a reason to suspect CSM will get improved Bolters, however. I'm mostly focused on what the new Codex might look like given what GW is doing with other ones.

 

 

As for specific units getting specific bonuses from Legion Traits, I feel like that's missing the mark.  If you compare to the Loyalist Chapter Tactics, the only one I can think of off the top of my head that specifically calls out a particular type of unit is Iron Hands, and that being vehicles.  What you're talking about really seems more the purview of stratagems -- think of Fury of the First (linked to Terminators) as an example.  Additionally, linking Legion Traits to particular unit types pigeonholes you in army building if you want to maximize the benefits of your Legion choice.  It makes much more sense to link those type of unit-specific rules behind options so that the player doesn't feel forced into a particular route when building an army.  For example, the Cult Leader WLT for Alpha Legion in F&F.  It's an option if you want to make Cultists slightly more lethal.  If that was part of the Legion Trait it might be broadly more useful, sure, but it would also basically eliminate CSMs as a Troop choice for Alpha Legion armies. Why would you ever take CSMs over Cultists at that point?  They way it's set up now, at least, you can choose if you want more lethal Cultists or not, and thus the determination between CSMs and Cultists is a tougher decisions between numbers versus lethality.

 

Yeah, I probably could have stated that a little better. Plague Companies favor different types of units, you see more benefits to PMs with one, Terminators with another, PBCs with another. My guess is were going to see something like that with Legions, seems like a nice way to bridge the gap between fluff and efficiency on the tabletop.

 

I didn't want to go into Stratagems because, of course, we are getting Stratagems. The ones in other Codexes work a lot like the ones in 8th, not sure there's more to discuss than that.

 

 

I will at least agree with you in principle that Marks should give some kind of benefit other than as an additional keyword.  I fondly remember the goods old days of +1T or +1I.  Now, whether they will or not is a question mark.  I'm not confident that they will confer an actual benefit in our new codex but I hope they do; I will say that they will continue to confer the keyword regardless however, as it's simply too convenient a mechanic to put aside especially when considering Prayers, Psychic Powers, and stratagems (and I'm pretty sure we'll see expanded Mark-specific strats).

 

The question I've been asking with Marks is in comparison with Specialisms. In Codex Deathwatch, you can give a specialism to a single unit for a benefit against a specific other type of unit. Specialisms also cost points, and you can only use them once per army.

 

Marks are different, they apply to a range of units in a CSM army. They have cost points in the past and conferred a statline benefit to the subject.

 

It seems like the tendency in 9th edition is for "upgrades" to apply to a single unit, cost points, and enhance shooting / melee efficiency. I'm wondering how this will actually play out with marks, they have traditionally worked a little different.

Edited June 16, 2021 by techsoldaten

[Special Officer Doofy]

I doubt they touch the bolter profile. They didn't with loyalist, they didn't with Plague Marines or the DG codex, and the extra AP is already a Rubric Marine / TS thing. Chaos tends to get shafted. They had some more expensive wargear that was the same as loyalist in the beginning of 8th (like lightning claws). Look at the loyalist relic Teeth of Terra and compare it to Chaos's Blade of the Hydra, there is no good reason why the chaos version is slightly worse. I'm hopeful chaos gets a similar treatment that loyalist get (in terms of strength, not attention like individual supplements), but to expect they get more like better bolters will only lead to disappointment.

[Marshal Loss]

 

Yeah, I probably could have stated that a little better. Plague Companies favor different types of units, you see more benefits to PMs with one, Terminators with another, PBCs with another. My guess is were going to see something like that with Legions, seems like a nice way to bridge the gap between fluff and efficiency on the tabletop.

 

I didn't want to go into Stratagems because, of course, we are getting Stratagems. The ones in other Codexes work a lot like the ones in 8th, not sure there's more to discuss than that..

 

I'm not sure why you're pointing at Plague Companies as an example of where the 9th ed CSM book could go when they do absolutely nothing that existing Legion rules from PA don't do already. They offer no passive benefits or abilities for existing units, only a relic, a stratagem, and a contagion (WL trait). Their abilities aren't even necessarily applicable to their company's specialist unit. The Ferrymen for example is the "Terminator Plague Company" yet it offers no Terminator specific buffs (beyond a weapon for HQs who all come in Terminator armour by default), there is no company that offers benefits only for Plague Marines, etc. It doesn't work like you've described.

 

More to the point, Plague Companies aren't even new to 9th: they were present in 8th ed's PA, just like the legion rules we already have. Plague Companies are not to Death Guard what Legions are to CSM. It would be more accurate to view all seven of them together as the equivalent to a single Legion's rules from Faith & Fury. So...we already have exactly what you're predicting, with certain Legions getting bonuses to certain units.

 

Legions will get warlord trait(s) stratagem(s) and relic(s), much as they do now. Some/many will invariably be direct copies or tweaked versions of what we saw in PA. EC and WE, if they aren't spun off, will make their respective cult units troops. Maybe other Legions might do something similar (e.g. BL make Chosen troops, WB make Possessed troops). Maybe Legions will get a specific secondary(s).

 

The only thing that the DG codex shows us is 1) what will happen with certain shared stratagems, e.g. VOTLW, and 2) what kind of stat/ability changes we can expect for certain units (e.g. Daemon Engines, Helbrutes). That's it. I also would not look at Kill Team for any information on what is going to happen in 40k.

 

I doubt they touch the bolter profile. They didn't with loyalist, they didn't with Plague Marines or the DG codex, and the extra AP is already a Rubric Marine / TS thing. Chaos tends to get shafted. They had some more expensive wargear that was the same as loyalist in the beginning of 8th (like lightning claws). Look at the loyalist relic Teeth of Terra and compare it to Chaos's Blade of the Hydra, there is no good reason why the chaos version is slightly worse. I'm hopeful chaos gets a similar treatment that loyalist get (in terms of strength, not attention like individual supplements), but to expect they get more like better bolters will only lead to disappointment.

 

Agree with you as usual; I don't think it will happen, but you never know. Maybe Chosen get "Warp Bolters" or w/e. The most consistent thing about GW is their inconsistency so never say never.

 

The DG book is fantastic, so I'm just hoping that the main CSM book is of similar quality. Will be interesting seeing what kind of treatment the TS receive.

Edited June 16, 2021 by Marshal Loss

[MegaVolt87]

I doubt they touch the bolter profile. They didn't with loyalist, they didn't with Plague Marines or the DG codex, and the extra AP is already a Rubric Marine / TS thing. Chaos tends to get shafted. They had some more expensive wargear that was the same as loyalist in the beginning of 8th (like lightning claws). Look at the loyalist relic Teeth of Terra and compare it to Chaos's Blade of the Hydra, there is no good reason why the chaos version is slightly worse. I'm hopeful chaos gets a similar treatment that loyalist get (in terms of strength, not attention like individual supplements), but to expect they get more like better bolters will only lead to disappointment.

 

My hopes are low honestly also. Even if a CSM could have a bolter, chainsword and bolt pistol stock without having to pick, small things like that at least to offset no AP bolters. That and the extra wound at 18pts would at least make them useable. Also keeping the chainsword when switching to a heavy or special option. Its also down to design. I would prefer to have strong overal legion rules, mono bonus + warlord traits with less baked in unit special abilities + OP stratagems. SM get good, well everything in comparison. 

[techsoldaten]

 

 

Yeah, I probably could have stated that a little better. Plague Companies favor different types of units, you see more benefits to PMs with one, Terminators with another, PBCs with another. My guess is were going to see something like that with Legions, seems like a nice way to bridge the gap between fluff and efficiency on the tabletop.

 

I didn't want to go into Stratagems because, of course, we are getting Stratagems. The ones in other Codexes work a lot like the ones in 8th, not sure there's more to discuss than that..

 

I'm not sure why you're pointing at Plague Companies as an example of where the 9th ed CSM book could go when they do absolutely nothing that existing Legion rules from PA don't do already. They offer no passive benefits or abilities for existing units, only a relic, a stratagem, and a contagion (WL trait). Their abilities aren't even necessarily applicable to their company's specialist unit. The Ferrymen for example is the "Terminator Plague Company" yet it offers no Terminator specific buffs (beyond a weapon for HQs who all come in Terminator armour by default), there is no company that offers benefits only for Plague Marines, etc. It doesn't work like you've described.

 

More to the point, Plague Companies aren't even new to 9th: they were present in 8th ed's PA, just like the legion rules we already have. Plague Companies are not to Death Guard what Legions are to CSM. It would be more accurate to view all seven of them together as the equivalent to a single Legion's rules from Faith & Fury. So...we already have exactly what you're predicting, with certain Legions getting bonuses to certain units.

 

I think you're taking issue with something I didn't say. 

 

Yes, Plague Companies grant access to a combination of relics, stratagems and WL traits that offer benefits to specific units. Harbingers are better for Poxwalkers, Inexorable are better for tanks, Ferrymen are better for Terminators, etc. That doesn't mean each Plague Company offers a rule that buffs a specific unit, instead each Plague Company gives access to tools that make the game more favorable to a specific unit type(s). That could mean a buff, it could also mean limiting an opponent's ability to move (which favors melee Terminators.)

 

Didn't think it was necessary to spell it out to that level of detail, but sure, happy to be more precise.

 

With regards to Legions Traits, the 8th ed Codex has rules like always getting cover beyond 12 inches, modifying morale tests, being able to advance and shoot with rapid fire weapons, etc. My guess is that will change, they will be more along the lines of Plague Companies going forward. This could mean specific rules for specific units, this could also mean WLTs, Stratagems and artefacts for each Legion that create similar benefits for specific units.

 

Don't know precisely. But please realize I was just talking about Legion Traits, not Psychic Awakening. My guess is Psychic Awakening rules will no longer apply once the new Codex drops so I'm not too worried about them.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

Not a wishlist thread.

 

During lockdowns, stayed productive by working on other armies. Gave me a chance to think about what GW is doing with rules in 9th edition and how they could be applied to CSM. I kind of see the direction now, a few things stand out.

 

For Death Guard:

 

- They get Plague Companies, which offer benefits similar to Legions

 

- They get Contagions, which offer debuffs on every unit

 

For Deathwatch:

 

- They get Specialisms, which make them stronger against specific unit types

 

- They get multiple mid-game delivery options (Terminator teleportation, relics, deep strike, etc)

 

- HQ auras are truly excellent, there's 16 troop types that can go into Kill Teams, other benefits too numerous to spell out...

 

Got me thinking about Legions and Marks of Chaos, what they could realistically look like in 9th. The most disappointing part of the 8th edition Codex was Legions, we finally got them and some were much better than others (Alpha Legion, you know what I'm talking about.)

 

OTOH, the most disappointing thing (for me) about 9th edition has been detachments. I don't like paying for them with CP. Losing the old Supreme Command Detachment means we can't run as many HQs in most armies, regular troops will need to do more work.

 

Here's some thoughts about what we might expect from 9th ed Codex CSM.

 

For Legions:

 

- (Going by Plague Companies) Legion-specific rules will chiefly benefit specific units. Night Lords will get some kind of bonus for Raptors, Black Legion will get some kind of bonus for Terminators, World Eaters will get some kind of bonus for Berzerkers, Iron Warriors will get some kind of bonus for Daemon Engines, etc. 

 

- (Going by Kill Teams) Legion-specific rules will buff shooting. GW can't make the Bolter better, they can add range, improve damage against specific unit types, improve rate of fire, etc. Guessing this will happen b/c the Bolter is seriously outclassed by Primaris shooting, something needs to be effective against them.

 

For Marks of Chaos:

 

- (Going by Specialisms) Marks will afford actual bonuses as they did before 8th edition. They will be limited to infantry and will cost points.

 

- (Going by Delivery) MoS will allow units to advance without penalty.

 

- (Going by HQ auras) Auras will be specific to each Legion, center on to hit / to wound rolls. More HQs will have double auras (offensive bonus + leadership / something else bonus.) 

For a while I mostly held the same view you articulated in this post but after hearing about what GW is doing with armies and renown I think it is POSSIBLE that GW might have something different in mind for chaos space marines.  I don't what know that is but it also does seem rather odd that the main antagonist faction is way at the back of the line for receiving a codex.  Maybe daemons and chaos marines will have some form of integration like what is happening with Belakor or maybe we got World Eaters/Emperor's Children on the way?    

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

 

I doubt they touch the bolter profile. They didn't with loyalist, they didn't with Plague Marines or the DG codex, and the extra AP is already a Rubric Marine / TS thing. Chaos tends to get shafted. They had some more expensive wargear that was the same as loyalist in the beginning of 8th (like lightning claws). Look at the loyalist relic Teeth of Terra and compare it to Chaos's Blade of the Hydra, there is no good reason why the chaos version is slightly worse. I'm hopeful chaos gets a similar treatment that loyalist get (in terms of strength, not attention like individual supplements), but to expect they get more like better bolters will only lead to disappointment.

 

My hopes are low honestly also. Even if a CSM could have a bolter, chainsword and bolt pistol stock without having to pick, small things like that at least to offset no AP bolters. That and the extra wound at 18pts would at least make them useable. Also keeping the chainsword when switching to a heavy or special option. Its also down to design. I would prefer to have strong overal legion rules, mono bonus + warlord traits with less baked in unit special abilities + OP stratagems. SM get good, well everything in comparison. 

 

I really hate that Chaos has had to rely on gimmick combos for years now.  Soup BS or stacking rules ontop of rules ontop of rules just to be on par with loyalist marines that had a set of rules that gave the army built in strength without all the nonsense.  

[Marshal Loss]

Well. You say this isn't a wishlist thread, but I mean...

 

(Going by Plague Companies) Legion-specific rules will chiefly benefit specific units.

 

They already do that and obviously will continue doing that. So what's there to discuss without straying into wishlisting?

 

It's also a bit strange to highlight Deathwatch as being good when they're almost unanimously viewed as subpar and one of the edition's only missteps.

 

 

That could mean a buff, it could also mean limiting an opponent's ability to move (which favors melee Terminators.)

 

Which favours everything, it's a board control device pure and simply, and isn't a buff aimed specifically at Terminators. Next you'll be saying that a -2" to enemy charges is aimed specifically at Plague Marines.

 

 

With regards to Legions Traits, the 8th ed Codex has rules like always getting cover beyond 12 inches, modifying morale tests, being able to advance and shoot with rapid fire weapons, etc. My guess is that will change, they will be more along the lines of Plague Companies going forward.

 

You're comparing apples to oranges. As I said above, Legions aren't changing/going to be "more along the lines of Plague Companies" because Plague Companies don't have traits, they aren't a valid point of comparison. What the Plague Companies do have we already see represented in the form of stratagems, relics, and warlord traits. If you want to see how traits might change, why not compare 8th ed traits with...9th ed traits in other books.

 

 

 this could also mean WLTs, Stratagems and artefacts for each Legion that create similar benefits for specific units.

 

...we already have those.

 

My guess is Psychic Awakening rules will no longer apply once the new Codex drops so I'm not too worried about them.

 

PA rules no longer apply but are also not being thrown out in their entirety; as GW themselves said, they take the "best" (subjective) and put it in the new codexes. Given the strong resemblance between 9th ed DG Plague Company rules and the 8th ed DG Plague Company rules in PA - this can be applied to other books - you'd be foolish to ignore what we received in PA.

Edited June 16, 2021 by Marshal Loss

[techsoldaten]

Eh, this is getting dragged into the weeds.

 

 

(Going by Plague Companies) Legion-specific rules will chiefly benefit specific units.

 

They already do that and obviously will continue doing that. So what's there to discuss without straying into wishlisting?

 

It's also a bit strange to highlight Deathwatch as being good when they're almost unanimously viewed as subpar and one of the edition's only missteps. 

 

I have not been discussing Psychic Awakening. I get your point that PA includes Stratagems / WLTs / Relics, but I am talking about Legion Traits.

 

So please help me understand what you are trying to say. What Legion Traits are tailored to benefit specific units?

 

I don't take it for granted that Legion Traits would be replaced by Stratagems / WLTs / Relics. Space Marines still have Chapter Tactics, I believe Legion Traits will remain. My entire point was they will be more tailored to the benefit of specific unit types instead of global bonuses.

 

 

 

That could mean a buff, it could also mean limiting an opponent's ability to move (which favors melee Terminators.)

 

Which favours everything, it's a board control device pure and simply, and isn't a buff aimed specifically at Terminators. Next you'll be saying that a -2" to enemy charges is aimed specifically at Plague Marines. 

 

Debating the nature of Contagions probably belongs in a Death Guard thread.

 

If you don't agree Terminators (like Deathshroud) especially benefit from controlling opponent's movement, fine. But you can't say the same about the other examples I cited, you're cherry picking.

 

At least some Contagions characteristically benefit specific units, and that I could see Codex CSM going a similar direction with Legion Traits.

 

 

 

With regards to Legions Traits, the 8th ed Codex has rules like always getting cover beyond 12 inches, modifying morale tests, being able to advance and shoot with rapid fire weapons, etc. My guess is that will change, they will be more along the lines of Plague Companies going forward.

 

You're comparing apples to oranges. As I said above, Legions aren't changing/going to be "more along the lines of Plague Companies" because Plague Companies don't have traits, they aren't a valid point of comparison. What the Plague Companies do have we already see represented in the form of stratagems, relics, and warlord traits. If you want to see how traits might change, why not compare 8th ed traits with...9th ed traits in other books.

 

You are correct, Plague Companies do not have Legion Traits.

 

But I never said that they do, only that the tools Plague Companies unlock seem to benefit specific units.

 

So no, I'm not comparing apples to oranges.

 

 

My guess is Psychic Awakening rules will no longer apply once the new Codex drops so I'm not too worried about them.

 

PA rules no longer apply but are also not being thrown out in their entirety; as GW themselves said, they take the "best" (subjective) and put it in the new codexes. Given the strong resemblance between 9th ed DG Plague Company rules and the 8th ed DG Plague Company rules in PA - this can be applied to other books - you'd be foolish to ignore what we received in PA.

 

There's no reason to believe rules from PA will be preserved in a 9th ed CSM Codex. A vague statement from GW doesn't mean much.

 

On the one hand, GW traditionally doesn't give much attention to expansions. We had Traitor's Hate and Traitor Legions in 7th, can't remember a single thing that was preserved from those books.

 

On the other hand, PA contains a lot of rules, specialist detachments are part of them. Save Drukhari, I'm unaware of another Codex that includes any specialist detachments. I don't see them getting ported. Sure, there might be Stratagems / WLTs / Relics for each Legion, but they're going to work very differently.

 

A better comparison of what could happen with a 9th ed Codex is Deathwatch. GW took away basic SIA from all units except Vets, they introduced 3 new Kill Team types, they opened access to just about everything from Codex: Space Marines. Radical changes to rules that persisted for multiple editions, taking a long time for people to catch up. 

 

 

It's also a bit strange to highlight Deathwatch as being good when they're almost unanimously viewed as subpar and one of the edition's only missteps.

 

My take is it's the best Codex in 9th edition. It's just very complex.

 

Look at DeathwatchSH's list that placed second in the East China Open. 

[Marshal Loss]

I'll try to make it simple, as you've misinterpreted some things and are flat out wrong on others:

• Legion traits will not be changed to only benefit specific units. That has not happened in any other codex, and I am utterly at a loss as to why you think that would happen here (with the point of comparison being...plague companies...........). Bonuses are broadly thematic and stratagems/relics/WL traits do the heavy lifting when it comes to specific units, e.g. WB get general bonuses reflecting their demeanor and specific bonuses for Possessed through extras. GW won't change this because to do otherwise means that faction bonuses are only obtained when playing a very narrow list of units, at best, which would be ridiculous. Incentives are far better (they have spoken about this exact thing at length on stream), and this is what we have seen in other books to date.
• Psychic Awakening did not have any specialist detachments in it at all, not a single one; you're either thinking of Vigilus or are simply wrong. The Cult of Strife supplement for Dark Eldar is not a specialist detachment.
• Comparing PA to TL/TH is foolish because 7th to 8th is not at all comparable to the transition from 8th to 9th. In the former, the core system changed; in the latter, it remained the same. GW explicitly said they would be carrying some content from PA over. They have done so.
• Deathwatch best codex in 9th edition?  Hah. You'll need more than an outlying result to make that case (a second place finish in the....East China Open?).

I'll leave you to your wishlisting.

Edited June 16, 2021 by Marshal Loss

[Special Officer Doofy]

Techsoldaten I think you are just having a miss communication with Marshal Loss. When you say plague companies give rules for specific units, they don't. People use the word "rules" for passive buffs, stuff on datasheets and actual rules from the rulebook. I've never heard Strats, warlord traits and/or relics referred to as "rules", which is all the plague companies give. I think Marshal Loss was trying to stress that point. I think by rules you meant strats, which they already have some from PA. Like night lords have a strat for charges for jump pack infantry (raptors and warp talons) which is fluffy for that legion. And yes we all want/expect them to build off of those strats as the chaos space marines PA strats are actually pretty darn cool for alot of the Legions.