Blindhamster Posted June 15, 2021 Share Posted June 15, 2021 when they could use the intercessor bolt rifle strats they were pretty great. Without access to those they aren't so good.IMO they really should be able to mix bolt rifles and astartes chainswords from model to model and be able to use both strats. As they are, they're sub-par.I love the models I did for them though :D Karhedron and Dracos 2 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/370695-fixing-veteran-intercessors/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted June 15, 2021 Share Posted June 15, 2021 Loss of Troops + ObjSec + Price increase puts me off them. +1A is too little gain for the abilities they lose and they end up contesting a valuable Elite slot. I can't really see a role for these guys that can't be done better by our Troops units or proper Elites. Inquisitor_Lensoven 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/370695-fixing-veteran-intercessors/#findComment-5711015 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blindhamster Posted June 15, 2021 Author Share Posted June 15, 2021 Loss of Troops + ObjSec + Price increase puts me off them. +1A is too little gain for the abilities they lose and they end up contesting a valuable Elite slot. I can't really see a role for these guys that can't be done better by our Troops units or proper Elites. yeah its a shame they became a proper slot to be honest, they simply don't have the rules or options to make them worth a slot. Where as a command point upgrade, they were usually worth having a single squad of. It's a bit annoying as it wouldn't even be all that hard to fix them: allow mixing of ranged and melee intercessor loadouts allow a couple models in addition to sergeant to take a melee weapon upgrade AND still allow the inclusion of grenade launchers allow the use of intercessor (both kinds) strats. i.e. make it so they have all the options you could make if you had a box of both kinds of intercessors plus a relevant chapter upgrade sprue. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/370695-fixing-veteran-intercessors/#findComment-5711025 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted June 15, 2021 Share Posted June 15, 2021 Heck, leaving them in the Troop slot would be enough to make me consider them. The ability to hide a TH on a 4A model (who effectively gets 6A from T3 onwards) could be pretty useful. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/370695-fixing-veteran-intercessors/#findComment-5711028 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolemai Posted June 15, 2021 Share Posted June 15, 2021 Split from here as it warrants it's own thread Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/370695-fixing-veteran-intercessors/#findComment-5711034 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted June 15, 2021 Share Posted June 15, 2021 I think Veteran Intercessors (along with Sternguard) need help from a Strategum that allows them to get +1 to wound against a target or +1 Damage, for 1 CP. Essentially makes tgen more flexible and useful. Lord Raven 19, Cruor Vault and SanguinaryGuardsman 3 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/370695-fixing-veteran-intercessors/#findComment-5711134 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLŒ FLY Posted June 15, 2021 Share Posted June 15, 2021 I use a squad in my Iron Hands army and am happy with them as is. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/370695-fixing-veteran-intercessors/#findComment-5711148 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor_Lensoven Posted June 15, 2021 Share Posted June 15, 2021 Can we redirect this discussion to simply 'fixing primaris veterans'? I'd like to see gravis veterans that can be set up as aggressor veterans, heavy interecessor veterans, or veterans mix and match between shooting and melee a bit, sort like mini-gravis captains. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/370695-fixing-veteran-intercessors/#findComment-5711336 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted June 15, 2021 Share Posted June 15, 2021 (edited) They should be Troops, or should keep Obsec. Should be able to mix weapons from Regular and Assault Intercessors. Edited June 15, 2021 by Ishagu Dracos and Karhedron 2 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/370695-fixing-veteran-intercessors/#findComment-5711340 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted June 15, 2021 Share Posted June 15, 2021 Can we redirect this discussion to simply 'fixing primaris veterans'? I'd like to see gravis veterans that can be set up as aggressor veterans, heavy interecessor veterans, or veterans mix and match between shooting and melee a bit, sort like mini-gravis captains. I'd rather see new dedicated units like the Bladeguard. In my opinion the old Veteran unit types are a mess and date back to the game being a smaller, skirmish style. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/370695-fixing-veteran-intercessors/#findComment-5711343 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CCE1981 Posted June 16, 2021 Share Posted June 16, 2021 (edited) The best solution I think is to have Veterans be an upgrade to a unit. “For 2 points per model increase a <Primaris Troops Choice> to a Veteran <Primaris Troops Choice> increasing it’s attacks and leadership characteristic by 1. The max number of all Veteran <Primaris Troops Choice> units is 1, unless you are playing a Strike Force Battle (In which case, you can upgrade 2, or Onslaught Battle ( in which case, you can upgrade three units).” This would limit the number of Veterans you can have while also having them as Troops. Edited June 16, 2021 by CCE1981 Karhedron 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/370695-fixing-veteran-intercessors/#findComment-5711344 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor_Lensoven Posted June 16, 2021 Share Posted June 16, 2021 Can we redirect this discussion to simply 'fixing primaris veterans'? I'd like to see gravis veterans that can be set up as aggressor veterans, heavy interecessor veterans, or veterans mix and match between shooting and melee a bit, sort like mini-gravis captains. I'd rather see new dedicated units like the Bladeguard. In my opinion the old Veteran unit types are a mess and date back to the game being a smaller, skirmish style. im tired of the hyper focused primaris units which the requires 3 datasheets when a rough equivalent to all 3 can be made from 1 firstborn datasheet.For example, devastators, can fill the role of hellblasters or eradicators no problem and even roughly the role of heavy Intercessors. Sternguard can likewise fill the roles of several different primaris units. Primaris 'specialization' is why we have like 100 datasheets in our codex Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/370695-fixing-veteran-intercessors/#findComment-5711364 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLŒ FLY Posted June 16, 2021 Share Posted June 16, 2021 Deathwatch is the way to go if you want to mix it up. Rhavien and Marshal Reinhard 2 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/370695-fixing-veteran-intercessors/#findComment-5711413 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted June 16, 2021 Share Posted June 16, 2021 (edited) Can we redirect this discussion to simply 'fixing primaris veterans'? I'd like to see gravis veterans that can be set up as aggressor veterans, heavy interecessor veterans, or veterans mix and match between shooting and melee a bit, sort like mini-gravis captains. I'd rather see new dedicated units like the Bladeguard. In my opinion the old Veteran unit types are a mess and date back to the game being a smaller, skirmish style. im tired of the hyper focused primaris units which the requires 3 datasheets when a rough equivalent to all 3 can be made from 1 firstborn datasheet.For example, devastators, can fill the role of hellblasters or eradicators no problem and even roughly the role of heavy Intercessors. Sternguard can likewise fill the roles of several different primaris units. Primaris 'specialization' is why we have like 100 datasheets in our codex All the best factions have traditionally used specialised units. The dedicated Primaris units are typically superior to the generalist units in the classic range. And the kits look more varied and unique, and require less conversions or sourcing of bits etc. Edited June 16, 2021 by Ishagu Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/370695-fixing-veteran-intercessors/#findComment-5711466 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halandaar Posted June 16, 2021 Share Posted June 16, 2021 I don't have any objection to a "Veteran" unit being an Elites slot choice as opposed to Troops, that makes sense to me. The problem is they've not really been given anything that makes them actually feel "Elite", or even anything that just compensates them for the lack of ObSec and access to the Stratagems which affect non-Veteran Intercessors. If GW wanted them just to be incrementally better versions of the base unit they should either have stuck with the previous model of making them a stratagem upgrade, or use the Drukhari model where you gate access to them behind something else and just pay a slight points increase to improve their rules a bit. If however the intent was them to be a proper Elite unit then they need a considerable rework, including abilities or wargear that allow them to be played differently to regular Intercessors. Lord Raven 19 and Blindhamster 2 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/370695-fixing-veteran-intercessors/#findComment-5711483 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhavien Posted June 16, 2021 Share Posted June 16, 2021 I find them very useless as they are. As many have said before they would need access to better gear and strats to be worth considering. If they are veterans they surely would have had the time to specialize in their weapons of choice. I mean like firstborn veterans did all the time even before Guillaume expanded the codex Astartes... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/370695-fixing-veteran-intercessors/#findComment-5711524 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted June 16, 2021 Share Posted June 16, 2021 I've thought about it some more, and a solution would be to give them a better gun. All of them should have Master Crafted bolt Rifles, and a slightly higher cost. Or something to that effect. Karhedron 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/370695-fixing-veteran-intercessors/#findComment-5711529 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rik Lightstar Posted June 16, 2021 Share Posted June 16, 2021 For me, all flavours of Veterans be they Firstborn or Primaris would be perfectly well served by rule that let them benefit from all 3 Doctrines all the time. Maybe some of the units would need a slight bump in points to accommodate this, most likely Vanguard Vets would be the biggest beneficiaries (but they're probably the best Veteran unit anyway). From a fluff perspective it would represent the huge amount of experience these units are meant to have, along with the fact that they're usually deployed as an auxiliary unit to a Strike Force from one of the other Companies. They're expected to be wherever they're needed. Also open up the Stratagem "Fury of the First" to any unit of "Veterans". Rik Halandaar, Dracos, Blindhamster and 1 other 4 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/370695-fixing-veteran-intercessors/#findComment-5711542 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halandaar Posted June 16, 2021 Share Posted June 16, 2021 I've thought about it some more, and a solution would be to give them a better gun. All of them should have Master Crafted bolt Rifles, and a slightly higher cost. Or something to that effect. Oh yay, yet another discrete boltgun profile that appears nowhere else in the Codex Why not something actually interesting that represents their decades (maybe even centuries) of battlefield experience? Literally any chump can shoot a better gun. For me, all flavours of Veterans be they Firstborn or Primaris would be perfectly well served by rule that let them benefit from all 3 Doctrines all the time. Maybe some of the units would need a slight bump in points to accommodate this, most likely Vanguard Vets would be the biggest beneficiaries (but they're probably the best Veteran unit anyway). From a fluff perspective it would represent the huge amount of experience these units are meant to have, along with the fact that they're usually deployed as an auxiliary unit to a Strike Force from one of the other Companies. They're expected to be wherever they're needed. Also open up the Stratagem "Fury of the First" to any unit of "Veterans". This is way more like what I was thinking. Something that actually sets them apart from their non-Veteran comrades. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/370695-fixing-veteran-intercessors/#findComment-5711586 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blindhamster Posted June 16, 2021 Author Share Posted June 16, 2021 have to admit, counting as being in all three doctrines all the time WOULD be a good way to show veterans experience AND ability to adapt to the situation better than their brethren. Captain Idaho 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/370695-fixing-veteran-intercessors/#findComment-5711602 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rik Lightstar Posted June 16, 2021 Share Posted June 16, 2021 have to admit, counting as being in all three doctrines all the time WOULD be a good way to show veterans experience AND ability to adapt to the situation better than their brethren. Yeah, changes to either the stats or weapon profiles end up being a slippery slope of "Well if a Veteran is THAT good then a Lieutenant needs to be better" which knocks on to Captains and every other HQ Choice. This way they'd not be doing anything that a normal Marine can't, they're just more able to act independently of the Command Structure. Which is exactly what a Veteran Squad should really be about. My other thought was some kind of aura ability to represent that a lot of the First Company are the "future leaders" of the Chapter so a mini buff effect could be good too. But I couldn't think of anything minor enough to not be broken yet good enough to be worth having. Rik Blindhamster 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/370695-fixing-veteran-intercessors/#findComment-5711667 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted June 16, 2021 Share Posted June 16, 2021 =][= Let's keep the discussion on subject. There's always another thread to make if you want to bring up different stuff like bloat etc =][= I like the idea of them counting all 3 Doctrines, or being able to pick at the beginning of a turn. Masterful Marksmanship coming back with a solid change would help Veterans - perhaps they get +1 shot on their bolt weapons, can choose +1 wound, can choose +1 damage etc. Make them flexible like the old days with their special ammo. BLACK BLŒ FLY 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/370695-fixing-veteran-intercessors/#findComment-5711740 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jorin Helm-splitter Posted June 16, 2021 Share Posted June 16, 2021 If it were up to me, I'd just make veteran Intercessors an upgrade that works like the hq upgrades. So you spend more points on squad, raise the power level, and give the unit the extra stats. Maybe have a restriction like for every 2 troop units you can upgrade 1 squad so it still feels rare/unique. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/370695-fixing-veteran-intercessors/#findComment-5711745 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swordsman Posted June 16, 2021 Share Posted June 16, 2021 I think, bs 2+, a better gun ( maybe something like assault 2 ap-1 d1), a stratagem +1 to wound and the possibility to give everybody a special CQC weapon should give them the needed boost. Nowadays they are a meaningless expensive intercessor whiteout obsec. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/370695-fixing-veteran-intercessors/#findComment-5711749 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracos Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 As much as I'd like them to be ObSec and master-crafted, I agree that does start a slippery slope. I do like the ability to mix and match Assault and Standard Intercessors with the ability to choose their Doctrine and use the associated Stratagems. I'm still not sure I'd choose them over my Bladeguard or Aggressors but I'd definitely do some trial runs to see if the versatility was equally useful as the other choices. My feeling is it would need another "nudge" to make them really worth it. Rik Lightstar 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/370695-fixing-veteran-intercessors/#findComment-5711800 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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