Are dreadnaughts in the right slot?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I think dreads should be in heavy support rather than in elites.

Especially since tanks are so unused this edition, we have so many viable elite options and so few viable HS options, I think this would change up the meta of SM lists, forcing a mix up of other metas, and just decluttering our elites slot.

Edited June 17, 2021 by Iron Father Ferrum
minor but important spelling issue

[CCE1981]

I agree with Dreadnoughts being elites, though we should also have Mortis Dreadnoughts in the Heavy Support Slots.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I disagree. Dreadnoughts are not heavy enough to qualify as Heavy Support -- they are not as large, not as durable, and/or not as lethal at range as all other Heavy Support choices.

 

With the Detachment system, you don't need to declutter the Elites slots -- you can just take an extra Detachment, or start with a Vanguard Detachment, if you need extra Elite slots.

[Dracos]

For my money there is nothing with the <Vehicle> keyword in the Astartes armory worth taking "competitively" right now. Which is a shame because I really want to like the Gladiator tanks.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I disagree. Dreadnoughts are not heavy enough to qualify as Heavy Support -- they are not as large, not as durable, and/or not as lethal at range as all other Heavy Support choices.

 

 

With the Detachment system, you don't need to declutter the Elites slots -- you can just take an extra Detachment, or start with a Vanguard Detachment, if you need extra Elite slots.

hellblasters and eradicators are heavy support...HS slot isn't about physical size or durability, it's about weight of firepower/offensive capability.

 

Eliminators have a total 6W per squad so W total doesn't even play a role.

Edited June 17, 2021 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Dracos]

To be fair Eliminators don't exactly have a weight of firepower either and they're in the Heavy slot

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

To be fair Eliminators don't exactly have a weight of firepower either and they're in the Heavy slot

id say 3 S8 AP-3 D3 guns is quite a bit of firepower.

And while it's only S5 regardless of the round, being able to take a round that is AP-2 D2 and a HeavyD3 blast round I think fits them into heavy support just fine.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

For my money there is nothing with the <Vehicle> keyword in the Astartes armory worth taking "competitively" right now. Which is a shame because I really want to like the Gladiator tanks.

me too, and I really love the stormspeeders. Particularly the look of the anti-infantry variant

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

 

To be fair Eliminators don't exactly have a weight of firepower either and they're in the Heavy slot

id say 3 S8 AP-3 D3 guns is quite a bit of firepower.

And while it's only S5 regardless of the round, being able to take a round that is AP-2 D2 and a HeavyD3 blast round I think fits them into heavy support just fine.

 

 

Mortis Dreadnoughts can mount four lascannons and I believe they're in the HS slot still, likely for that very reason. But they moved the Relic Leviathan from HS to Elites and that's one of the heaviest Space Marine units that isn't a superheavy or Land Raider/Repulsor-chassis, so I'm not sure how GW decides these things.

Edited June 17, 2021 by Tyberos the Red Wake

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

 

To be fair Eliminators don't exactly have a weight of firepower either and they're in the Heavy slot

id say 3 S8 AP-3 D3 guns is quite a bit of firepower.

And while it's only S5 regardless of the round, being able to take a round that is AP-2 D2 and a HeavyD3 blast round I think fits them into heavy support just fine.

Mortis Dreadnoughts can mount four lascannons and I believe they're in the HS slot still, likely for that very reason. But they moved the Relic Leviathan from HS to Elites and that's one of the heaviest Space Marine units that isn't a superheavy or Land Raider/Repulsor-chassis, so I'm not sure how GW decides these things.

mortis isn't even in the codex this edition, so kind of a moot point.

 

However a standard dreadnaught can take 2 lascannons and a missile launcher. That seems pretty heavy support to me.

Edited June 17, 2021 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Lord_Ikka]

I think the problem is that both the Elite and Heavy Support slots for Space Marines are fairly stocked with choices, but right now in 9th, the Heavy Support slot is not nearly a competitive place as the Elite slot. Moving Dreads to HS doesn't solve the inherent problem of the SM Elites having a lot of viable choices for limited slots- it just makes the current lack of viability in HS (mainly due to lackluster performance with tanks) more pronounced as Redemptors/Eradicators/Hellblasters will become the main HS takes instead of just Eradicators/Hellblasters (and maybe Eliminators depending on your meta). 

[Karhedron]

Dreadnoughts are multi-role, capable of providing mobile fire support, melee power and some armoured durability. This is what puts them in the the Elite slot from my POV. Sure you can customise some Dreads for fire support or for mainly melee (BAs and SWs at least) but I definitely don't use them in the same way I would a tank or a Devastator squad.

[Captain Antargo]

I can see why you think they should be, but I disagree.

[Mandragola]

Dreadnoughts make sense in the elites slot because that's what they are: heroes of the Chapter. And in general they're units that mix shooting and melee, so elites makes more sense than HS. That's for units that are primarily about shooting, typically with heavy weapons if they're infantry and tanks if they're vehicles.

 

There are other things I'd remove from the elites slot first. Reivers are not elite marines, for example. Invictors should arguably be fast attack instead. But in general it's not a problem because you get six elite slots in a battalion, which tends to be enough.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I don't think dreads belong in heavy support. For most dreads their role has been moving up to the midfield with solid shooting and melee, that isn't a support role that is a role that gets supported. I really appreciate that the new mission structure makes dreads relevant because with progressive scoring the chance of leveraging the melee aspect goes way up. 

 

That said with the detachments rules it doesn't really matter too much what slot units fall under. Yeah we have a lot of great elites but a battalion and a patrol gets you 8 elite and 5 heavy slots to work with. When you factor in 400 points for troops, 300 points for hqs, 8 elite choices can easily take up that last 1300 points. In general your always going to run out of points before slots. If you limit yourself to a single battalion that changes but then your putting an artificial restraint on yourself.  

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Dreadnoughts make sense in the elites slot because that's what they are: heroes of the Chapter. And in general they're units that mix shooting and melee, so elites makes more sense than HS. That's for units that are primarily about shooting, typically with heavy weapons if they're infantry and tanks if they're vehicles.

 

There are other things I'd remove from the elites slot first. Reivers are not elite marines, for example. Invictors should arguably be fast attack instead. But in general it's not a problem because you get six elite slots in a battalion, which tends to be enough.

if you're playing a battalion sized game sure.

But what about little Timmy who has to plan out his army and thus his purchases based on minimal allowance and/or gift money, who can't afford such a massive army in a reasonable timeframe?

Or just poorer adults who live the hobby/game but can't sink that much money into the game in a short period of time?

2 HQs, 3 troops is already easily over $100, then trying fill up 6 slots?

 

Or we just thin out the elites list and allow people to take more variety in their armies

Edited June 17, 2021 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

 

Dreadnoughts make sense in the elites slot because that's what they are: heroes of the Chapter. And in general they're units that mix shooting and melee, so elites makes more sense than HS. That's for units that are primarily about shooting, typically with heavy weapons if they're infantry and tanks if they're vehicles.

 

There are other things I'd remove from the elites slot first. Reivers are not elite marines, for example. Invictors should arguably be fast attack instead. But in general it's not a problem because you get six elite slots in a battalion, which tends to be enough.

if you're playing a battalion sized game sure.

But what about little Timmy who has to plan out his army and thus his purchases based on minimal allowance and/or gift money, who can't afford such a massive army in a reasonable timeframe?

Or just poorer adults who live the hobby/game but can't sink that much money into the game in a short period of time?

2 HQs, 3 troops is already easily over $100, then trying fill up 6 slots?

 

Or we just thin out the elites list and allow people to take more variety in their armies

 

 

 

How does changing the slots dreads are in make the game more affordable? It's not like GW is going to switch them to heavy support and have too drop their real life cost by 20%. I mean it would be awesome if that's how it worked, but it just isn't going to happen. 

 

In your example if Timmy is going to struggle to fill 6 elite slots then dreads being in the elite slot don't restrict his choices at all his finances do. They would restrict him regardless of which slot they are in.

 

I could see a single battalion list becoming more effective with this change, and that may be cheaper but I don't think it would shake up the marine meta.  

[Karhedron]

I agree. Moving Dreads out of Elites is not going to help affordability or army selection. There are already twice as many Elites slots in a Battalion as Heavies. Whilst there might be slightly less contention for the Heavy slots, there are some competitive options that see play. Also you can make those 6 Elite slots go even further by taking a Command squad to get the free Champion, Ancient and Apothecary options.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I will add that if there was a slot change that would make the game more affordable I'd be all for it. I'm actually a big fan of Incursion (1000 pt games), I have a pretty limited selection of opponents at the moment but so far its been pretty good. Hopefully that format takes off a bit, even if its really different to the 2000 point game it would make for a much more affordable format.

 

I just don't see dreads moving slots bringing down the cost of armies, except in specific builds and I doubt that they'd be good enough to change how most of us build our armies. I'd much rather they make the heavy support choices as tough to choose between as the elite choices because I think you'd see a lot of personalization in our army lists. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

 

Dreadnoughts make sense in the elites slot because that's what they are: heroes of the Chapter. And in general they're units that mix shooting and melee, so elites makes more sense than HS. That's for units that are primarily about shooting, typically with heavy weapons if they're infantry and tanks if they're vehicles.

 

There are other things I'd remove from the elites slot first. Reivers are not elite marines, for example. Invictors should arguably be fast attack instead. But in general it's not a problem because you get six elite slots in a battalion, which tends to be enough.

if you're playing a battalion sized game sure.

But what about little Timmy who has to plan out his army and thus his purchases based on minimal allowance and/or gift money, who can't afford such a massive army in a reasonable timeframe?

Or just poorer adults who live the hobby/game but can't sink that much money into the game in a short period of time?

2 HQs, 3 troops is already easily over $100, then trying fill up 6 slots?

 

Or we just thin out the elites list and allow people to take more variety in their armies

 

How does changing the slots dreads are in make the game more affordable? It's not like GW is going to switch them to heavy support and have too drop their real life cost by 20%. I mean it would be awesome if that's how it worked, but it just isn't going to happen.

 

In your example if Timmy is going to struggle to fill 6 elite slots then dreads being in the elite slot don't restrict his choices at all his finances do. They would restrict him regardless of which slot they are in.

 

I could see a single battalion list becoming more effective with this change, and that may be cheaper but I don't think it would shake up the marine meta.

a new player can build a combat patrol, with a dread or two, and say aggressors, and VV, instead of having to buy more troops and HQs to fit their desire to have elite infantry options and a dreadnaught or two.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I agree. Moving Dreads out of Elites is not going to help affordability or army selection. There are already twice as many Elites slots in a Battalion as Heavies. Whilst there might be slightly less contention for the Heavy slots, there are some competitive options that see play. Also you can make those 6 Elite slots go even further by taking a Command squad to get the free Champion, Ancient and Apothecary options.

youre missing the point.

 

If you HAVE to fill a battalion in order to not feel a crunch in what elites you take, then you HAVE to spend more money to fill out those extra HQ and troop requirements.

 

And deviating to a vanguard eats into your CP before the game gets started and leaves you and a disadvantage in terms of OBSEC.

Getting an extra vanguard detachment with a combat patrol eats into your CP, and still requires another HQ be purchased to accommodate the second detachment.

[Mandragola]

Right, but ultimately a 2k army is a 2k army. It's going to cost a roughly similar amount whether the points are made up of troops, HQs, elites or whatever else.

 

I don't understand the point about obsec. If you want obsec stuff, get troops. If you do that then a Battalion is easily achievable. If you don't want to take a vanguard because of obsec then fine, but it still doesn't matter what slot the dreads are in, because there's no scenario in which they'd be obsec. They wouldn't have obsec in a spearhead either.

 

Unfortunately it's just an expensive hobby. Troops are probably the least expensive part.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

 

I disagree. Dreadnoughts are not heavy enough to qualify as Heavy Support -- they are not as large, not as durable, and/or not as lethal at range as all other Heavy Support choices.

 

 

With the Detachment system, you don't need to declutter the Elites slots -- you can just take an extra Detachment, or start with a Vanguard Detachment, if you need extra Elite slots.

hellblasters and eradicators are heavy support...HS slot isn't about physical size or durability, it's about weight of firepower/offensive capability.

 

Eliminators have a total 6W per squad so W total doesn't even play a role.

I'm assuming you missed the third item in my list -- lethality. Devastators aren't durable or large either, but they can pack a wallop, yes?

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

@Inquisitor_Lensoven

 

1) I think when you refer to the marine meta most players are going to assume 2000 point lists. That's the standard tournament game size, heck GW isn't even supporting Incursion at the moment. I hope they do, but regardless moving what slots dreads are in doesn't budge the meta we have (its pretty common for the top marines lists to have unused elite slots).

 

2) If a new player wants to take a list like that they can, just take a Vanguard detachment. It costs you 3 cp but you can dodge the troop slot entirely and grab some eradicators and a couple MM attack bike. 

 

Primaris Techmarine (master of the forge)

 

2 redemptors

 

1 x 5 VV w/ SS & LC

 

1 x 3 aggressors

 

1 x 2 MM attack bikes

 

3 eradicators

 

The army wouldn't have obsec, and you'd lose 3 cp. That said most troops aren't going to be to able to hold on to an objective vs. those units anyway. Plus you won't really need transhuman that much because VV can't use it, the techmarine is a character and the rest of your infantry is t5. This would be a pretty strong list at a 1000 points in my experience. I mean I would probably drop the aggressors for some company vets for action duty (and upgrade the eradicators to the heavy rifles & a MM while I'm at it). That way you could go with engage on all fronts, ROD, and I think Oath of moment. 

 

Regardless if they want a list around those units they'll be fine. 

 

 

edit: Got distracted making 1000 point lists, and wasn't right underneath the post I was replying to

Edited June 18, 2021 by Jorin Helm-splitter

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

I disagree. Dreadnoughts are not heavy enough to qualify as Heavy Support -- they are not as large, not as durable, and/or not as lethal at range as all other Heavy Support choices.

 

 

With the Detachment system, you don't need to declutter the Elites slots -- you can just take an extra Detachment, or start with a Vanguard Detachment, if you need extra Elite slots.

hellblasters and eradicators are heavy support...HS slot isn't about physical size or durability, it's about weight of firepower/offensive capability.

 

Eliminators have a total 6W per squad so W total doesn't even play a role.

I'm assuming you missed the third item in my list -- lethality. Devastators aren't durable or large either, but they can pack a wallop, yes?

theyre definitely more lethal at range than eliminators, depending on loadout more lethal at range than eradicators, so no I didn't miss your third point, it was just an awful point.

 

Also heavy support doesn't necessarily mean fire support, so lethality at range is irrelevant.