Are dreadnaughts in the right slot?

[Son of Sacrifice]

This is looking like a resounding vote for NO, and I agree.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

 

 

 

I disagree. Dreadnoughts are not heavy enough to qualify as Heavy Support -- they are not as large, not as durable, and/or not as lethal at range as all other Heavy Support choices.

 

 

With the Detachment system, you don't need to declutter the Elites slots -- you can just take an extra Detachment, or start with a Vanguard Detachment, if you need extra Elite slots.

hellblasters and eradicators are heavy support...HS slot isn't about physical size or durability, it's about weight of firepower/offensive capability.

 

Eliminators have a total 6W per squad so W total doesn't even play a role.

I'm assuming you missed the third item in my list -- lethality. Devastators aren't durable or large either, but they can pack a wallop, yes?

theyre definitely more lethal at range than eliminators, depending on loadout more lethal at range than eradicators, so no I didn't miss your third point, it was just an awful point.

 

Also heavy support doesn't necessarily mean fire support, so lethality at range is irrelevant.

Name one Heavy Support choice that specializes in close combat.

 

I'll wait.

[Metzombie]

More or less halve the choices in the ork and tyranid dex.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

 

 

I disagree. Dreadnoughts are not heavy enough to qualify as Heavy Support -- they are not as large, not as durable, and/or not as lethal at range as all other Heavy Support choices.

 

 

With the Detachment system, you don't need to declutter the Elites slots -- you can just take an extra Detachment, or start with a Vanguard Detachment, if you need extra Elite slots.

hellblasters and eradicators are heavy support...HS slot isn't about physical size or durability, it's about weight of firepower/offensive capability.

 

Eliminators have a total 6W per squad so W total doesn't even play a role.

I'm assuming you missed the third item in my list -- lethality. Devastators aren't durable or large either, but they can pack a wallop, yes?

theyre definitely more lethal at range than eliminators, depending on loadout more lethal at range than eradicators, so no I didn't miss your third point, it was just an awful point.

 

Also heavy support doesn't necessarily mean fire support, so lethality at range is irrelevant.

Name one Heavy Support choice that specializes in close combat.

 

I'll wait.

show me where it says any where that heavy support is long range?

 

But I'd argue that eradicators are a close combat HS option. Their range is short as :cuss.

 

Dreadnaughts are heavy vehicles, they provide a heavy amount of offensive power, and they're there to support the battle line.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Dreadnought are not heavy vehicles. They're the lightest vehicles in the codex-- fewer wounds than even a Rhino!

 

Close combat is melee, so no, Eradicators don't count. They're a shooting unit. I also didn't say "long" range, I said "at range" -- meaning shooting units, so you're still wrong.

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

 

Name one Heavy Support choice that specializes in close combat.

 

I'll wait.

 

 

Tyranid Mawloc.

 

GOTTEM

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Dreadnought are not heavy vehicles. They're the lightest vehicles in the codex-- fewer wounds than even a Rhino!

 

Close combat is melee, so no, Eradicators don't count. They're a shooting unit. I also didn't say "long" range, I said "at range" -- meaning shooting units, so you're still wrong.

close combat and melee are two different things

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Not really.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

The more I think about this subject the more I think Dreads shouldn't change slots. 

 

The elite slot has over 25 choices*, and I've seen over half of them represented in top 4 list breakdowns on Goonhammer. With a core selection of VV, BGV, Redemptors, Termies, Company Vets, Contemptors, and support characters that show up in a lot of lists. That's an impressive spread, and I think having them in the same slot does lead to more list variety because of opportunity cost. 

 

The heavy support slot has a little over of 20 choices* and I've only seen a couple of them represented in top 4 lists more than once Eradicators and Devastators. Moving dreads to heavy support doesn't make those other heavy support units more viable. It's a short term solution to a problem facing very specific builds, because most builds have elite slots open. If the goal is to increase list variety as implied in the OP, GW should make a lot of the other heavy choices more desirable by either improving them, or being realistic about how strong the improved weapons are and pricing them accurately.

 

 

 

* I don't want to be too specific on number of slots because of unique chapter units & FW units.

Edited June 20, 2021 by Jorin Helm-splitter

[Karhedron]

Back in the dim and distant past, Blood Angels Dreadnoughts were a heavy support option. I found it limiting and awkward when I wanted to run "proper" heavy support such as tanks. With twice as many Elite slots as HS slots, moving popular options from Elite to HS will cause more problems with list building that it solves.

 

A definite "No thanks" from me.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Yeah that's a good point Karhedron, traditional Iron Hand lists would actually feel a lot of pain if dreads and tanks where in the same slot. Space wolves have also moved toward dread heavy lists since we got our own kit. They wouldn't be affected nearly as much but the main motivation for the change stops making sense as soon as the other heavy choices are improved which is the best case for any marine chapter.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Guess this is something I am alone on.

[Naryn]

Maybe a weird take but I wouldn't mind basic dreadnoughts being moved to troops as a "one per every unit of Astartes Infantry" or something similar. Would be kind of fun to have scoring dreadnoughts, and my mental image of the core of an astartes force has always been marines and dreadnoughts. I'm picturing a force like the Dawn of War 1 intro of course.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Maybe a weird take but I wouldn't mind basic dreadnoughts being moved to troops as a "one per every unit of Astartes Infantry" or something similar. Would be kind of fun to have scoring dreadnoughts, and my mental image of the core of an astartes force has always been marines and dreadnoughts. I'm picturing a force like the Dawn of War 1 intro of course.

that might be a little overboard lol

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It would as much as making them HS.

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

Maybe a weird take but I wouldn't mind basic dreadnoughts being moved to troops as a "one per every unit of Astartes Infantry" or something similar. Would be kind of fun to have scoring dreadnoughts, and my mental image of the core of an astartes force has always been marines and dreadnoughts. I'm picturing a force like the Dawn of War 1 intro of course.

 

Dreadnoughts have the Core keyword now specifically for that reason. A lot of models are still "core" to the identity of the various factions even if they aren't really a good fit as a Troops choice. The keyword was added to allow auras to affect models with more nuance but they could have picked any word they wanted to, so the fact that they used "core" specifically leads me to believe GW feels the same way as you.