Can you be 100% 3rd party and still be playing Warhammer?

[Jings]

Yeah it’s about immersion for me as well. This mythical third party army I doubt exists that looks super cool tbh. It just comes across as a means of saving some quid.

 

Yeah, because the lore has firmly established that, say, Imperial Guard are a homogenous force that's identical across the galaxy. 

 

Look at the 3rd party Ork stuff out there. You telling me someone using *those* models are trying to save a couple of quid? Pretty ignorant assumption to make but at this point, given the usual quality of your posts, hardly surprising.‍♂

Edited June 20, 2021 by Jings

[Warhead01]

This is a fun one. I agree if we're playing the GW published 40K rules then we're playing 40K.  From there I guess if e house rule something then we are mostly playing 40K. 
I'm mostly fine with 3rd party miniatures as long as the intent was something along the lines of I have this amazing idea I want  for my army and have found a way to represent it. I see I am headed to hypocrisy if I continue with my other pro non GW miniatures thoughts. I am not pro paper tokens or chips or not models as I can't play the game that way at all. I need models to see what's happening.  Where as I am more willing to accept weird models from another player for various reasons aside from my main view of representing ones ideas with models bashed up because GW doesn't produce what one may have in mind. For me the focus includes conversions, kit bashing proxies and painting as I am a hobbyist first.

Is it still 40K?
"If it's not it oughta be. " 
I feel a lot more freedom with 3rd party or proxies where older editions are concerned because who does it hurt. 
3rd party models doesn't always mean we're saving money in fact I've found it can cost more some times a lot more. 
Shure I'll save some money buying one kit but then I'll have to buy bases and another kit and some green stuff and those cool bits ect. Sometimes. 

 

 

 

  I don't know how to say it, but I know it when I see it. 

Also this.

Edited June 21, 2021 by Warhead01

[AenarIT]

 

Yeah it’s about immersion for me as well. This mythical third party army I doubt exists that looks super cool tbh. It just comes across as a means of saving some quid.

 

Yeah, because the lore has firmly established that, say, Imperial Guard are a homogenous force that's identical across the galaxy. 

 

Look at the 3rd party Ork stuff out there. You telling me someone using *those* models are trying to save a couple of quid? Pretty ignorant assumption to make but at this point, given the usual quality of your posts, hardly surprising.‍♂

Same thing goes for other armies as well.

I've spent almost £200 in resin bits from Anvil Industries (heads and legs to put on cadian models to make them a bit more interesting), money that went into substituting parts of original models I already bought. I have bought original kits and simply added on them different sets of legs and heads. The original ones I did not use ended up on eBay, but at less than a third of the original infantry kit so I've not saved any money in the end.

Resorting to third party bits was a decision not based on saving money but on making the army a bit more interesting as the cadian infantry looked so dull to me. 

 

[Arkaniss]

So, my take from this is that Space Knights vs Guns Nunz is the new Ship of Theseus You could throw in an army made entirely from GS but looking exactly like the official plastic models for good measure

I think it's been best summed up just as by a few people here already - impossible to say with any certainty, but you know it when you see it. This thread has been a fun read, always interesting to see how other people approach a conundrum like this!

[Domhnall]

One way to look at it, is to simplify the question down to chess. 

 

You have pawns, bishops, knights etc etc. and they all obey their own rules. 

 

I could play with my bog standard, straight out of the box acme brand of chess pieces, whilst playing against somebody who's invested in a pristine set of carved ice figures, frozen from the tears of babies. If it looks horsey, and moves like a knight, then it's a knight, and we're playing chess. 

 

If I then have a house rule that knights can teleport to any square they have in line of sight; then it's no longer chess. It's a form of chess, but it's not chess.*

 

However, if acme brand do a chess tournament and only allow acme brand chess pieces; then that's fine, it's their tournament, their rules. 

 

 

*Of course, this analogy is all ruined because Monopoly walks in, kicks the official rules out the door and sets up it's own house rules. It then pretends to be the official rules, because that's how we've always done it, and nobody reads the rule book to see how it's properly done, because at the end of the day, nobody really wants to fall out over a board game. 

[Scribe]

GW has done a lot to remove the game from what I even worry about now when I think of 40K.

 

Art, Story, Setting, are all more pressing.

[OldWherewolf]

Art, Story, Setting, are all more pressing.

 

I have to agree here.  Funny thing is, the reverse is also true.  If the rulesets don't back up the story & lore, then we lose the immersion and lose interest in the game. 

 

Note: let's not derail the thread to bash GW on power creep  

[Scribe]

What I mean to make clear, is that the rule set no longer matters to me, and if the 3rd party models align with how the art and setting are generally understood, then it's 40K, to me.

[Jings]

 

 

Yeah it’s about immersion for me as well. This mythical third party army I doubt exists that looks super cool tbh. It just comes across as a means of saving some quid.

 

Yeah, because the lore has firmly established that, say, Imperial Guard are a homogenous force that's identical across the galaxy. 

 

Look at the 3rd party Ork stuff out there. You telling me someone using *those* models are trying to save a couple of quid? Pretty ignorant assumption to make but at this point, given the usual quality of your posts, hardly surprising.‍♂

Same thing goes for other armies as well.

I've spent almost £200 in resin bits from Anvil Industries (heads and legs to put on cadian models to make them a bit more interesting), money that went into substituting parts of original models I already bought. I have bought original kits and simply added on them different sets of legs and heads. The original ones I did not use ended up on eBay, but at less than a third of the original infantry kit so I've not saved any money in the end.

Resorting to third party bits was a decision not based on saving money but on making the army a bit more interesting as the cadian infantry looked so dull to me. 

 

 

 

Exactly. My MechVet IG army? Pig Iron heads and MaxMini greatcoat legs on top of the Cadian torsos and lasguns I used. My Dark Angels? Anvil Industries and Kromlech robed bodies spread throughout, alongside official GW upgrade kits. My Iron Warriors army? Anvil Industries and Kromlech bionics spread throughout, alongside dots of Forgeworld and old GW upgrade kits. 

 

There are plenty of companies out there that offer parts at GW quality that are designed specifically to mesh with the 40K aesthetic, like the recent Wargames Atlantic not-Vostroyan, Steel Legion and Squat kits. If someone turned up and ran them as IG, I'd probably be more hype than I would an army of unconverted Cadians. 

 

The argument that 3rd Party = Cheaper very rarely holds water. I wonder what the crossover between people holding that viewpoint, and people who think GW charge too much for the miniatures is? 

[roryokane]

Isn’t this just the Ship of Theseus, but reimagined for 40K?

I’d personally draw the line at the intent for your game to be part of the 40K setting.

You can have recast/3rd party miniatures if you like (I mean, the former is literally the ‘correct’ miniatures made by the wrong people), and the rest (terrain, dice etc) are merely accoutrements - none of those break what makes 40K 40K. If you have a bunch of gun nuns that looks sufficiently grim dark to work in 40K without breaking the aesthetic, and you’re setting the game up to work in the context of the 40K universe “these sisters defend their convent against a horde of orks” then you’re playing 40k.

 

 

It’s one of those “I don’t know where the line is *exactly* but that doesn’t mean there isn’t one” type scenarios.

[Domhnall]

Isn’t this just the Ship of Theseus, but reimagined for 40K?

I’d personally draw the line at the intent for your game to be part of the 40K setting.

You can have recast/3rd party miniatures if you like (I mean, the former is literally the ‘correct’ miniatures made by the wrong people), and the rest (terrain, dice etc) are merely accoutrements - none of those break what makes 40K 40K. If you have a bunch of gun nuns that looks sufficiently grim dark to work in 40K without breaking the aesthetic, and you’re setting the game up to work in the context of the 40K universe “these sisters defend their convent against a horde of orks” then you’re playing 40k.

 

 

It’s one of those “I don’t know where the line is *exactly* but that doesn’t mean there isn’t one” type scenarios.

 

 

I agree, I think the line is there, but it's variable. Very much dependant on the circumstances.

 

Vague fuzzy line: 

Only playing with yourself and your friends? Do as you will, as long as everybody agrees what is what, it's all good. Use a Barbie dreamplane playset as a thunderhawk if everybody is happy. 

 

Mid level defined: 

Local clubs/tournaments that allow some 3rd party sets? Superb. Again, all good. 

 

Very much a definitive line, a border with secuirty fences and watchtowers if you will:

An official GW tournament, where only using the finest official product will do (even if your figures are a 20 year old design!). 

 

 

END OF RELATED POST. Anything after this is off on a tangent.

 

 

 

I think a lot of the 3rd party versions are superior to what GW produce, and if I played, would happily buy/use them where I was allowed to. My only issue is with recasts of official products. But again, it's not a clear cut issue for me. If you spend the time and effort to do it yourself, and don't try to pass them off as the real thing, then fine. You do you. 

I draw the line at buying recasts. I just don't like people profitting from somebody else's work.

 

 

If somebody was struggling to get into the hobby because of the cost involved, I'm sure that most of us has some unused and unloved squads/characters kicking about they could give them...

In fact, in case anybody missed it, there is a thread somewhere recently of starting up a group for people to donate unused models to move on to new homes. 

[roryokane]

 

Isn’t this just the Ship of Theseus, but reimagined for 40K?

I’d personally draw the line at the intent for your game to be part of the 40K setting.

You can have recast/3rd party miniatures if you like (I mean, the former is literally the ‘correct’ miniatures made by the wrong people), and the rest (terrain, dice etc) are merely accoutrements - none of those break what makes 40K 40K. If you have a bunch of gun nuns that looks sufficiently grim dark to work in 40K without breaking the aesthetic, and you’re setting the game up to work in the context of the 40K universe “these sisters defend their convent against a horde of orks” then you’re playing 40k.

 

 

It’s one of those “I don’t know where the line is *exactly* but that doesn’t mean there isn’t one” type scenarios.

 

 

I agree, I think the line is there, but it's variable. Very much dependant on the circumstances.

 

Vague fuzzy line: 

Only playing with yourself and your friends? Do as you will, as long as everybody agrees what is what, it's all good. Use a Barbie dreamplane playset as a thunderhawk if everybody is happy. 

 

Mid level defined: 

Local clubs/tournaments that allow some 3rd party sets? Superb. Again, all good. 

 

Very much a definitive line, a border with secuirty fences and watchtowers if you will:

An official GW tournament, where only using the finest official product will do (even if your figures are a 20 year old design!). 

 

 

END OF RELATED POST. Anything after this is off on a tangent.

 

 

 

I think a lot of the 3rd party versions are superior to what GW produce, and if I played, would happily buy/use them where I was allowed to. My only issue is with recasts of official products. But again, it's not a clear cut issue for me. If you spend the time and effort to do it yourself, and don't try to pass them off as the real thing, then fine. You do you. 

I draw the line at buying recasts. I just don't like people profitting from somebody else's work.

 

 

If somebody was struggling to get into the hobby because of the cost involved, I'm sure that most of us has some unused and unloved squads/characters kicking about they could give them...

In fact, in case anybody missed it, there is a thread somewhere recently of starting up a group for people to donate unused models to move on to new homes. 

 

I don't see the issue with recasts of OOP miniatures, because GW could just literally do a 3D print bits on demand if they *really* wanted to (BRING BACK THE CITADEL CATALOGUES DAMN YOU) . If they stop selling them, that's a business decision by them that they don't want my money, so I'm willing to buy components that are no longer available from wherever I can get them, especially when it comes to things like accessories that are purely aesthetic (Chapter-specific rhino and land-raider doors, anyone?)

[Domhnall]

 

 

Isn’t this just the Ship of Theseus, but reimagined for 40K?

I’d personally draw the line at the intent for your game to be part of the 40K setting.

You can have recast/3rd party miniatures if you like (I mean, the former is literally the ‘correct’ miniatures made by the wrong people), and the rest (terrain, dice etc) are merely accoutrements - none of those break what makes 40K 40K. If you have a bunch of gun nuns that looks sufficiently grim dark to work in 40K without breaking the aesthetic, and you’re setting the game up to work in the context of the 40K universe “these sisters defend their convent against a horde of orks” then you’re playing 40k.

 

 

It’s one of those “I don’t know where the line is *exactly* but that doesn’t mean there isn’t one” type scenarios.

 

 

I agree, I think the line is there, but it's variable. Very much dependant on the circumstances.

 

Vague fuzzy line: 

Only playing with yourself and your friends? Do as you will, as long as everybody agrees what is what, it's all good. Use a Barbie dreamplane playset as a thunderhawk if everybody is happy. 

 

Mid level defined: 

Local clubs/tournaments that allow some 3rd party sets? Superb. Again, all good. 

 

Very much a definitive line, a border with secuirty fences and watchtowers if you will:

An official GW tournament, where only using the finest official product will do (even if your figures are a 20 year old design!). 

 

 

END OF RELATED POST. Anything after this is off on a tangent.

 

 

 

I think a lot of the 3rd party versions are superior to what GW produce, and if I played, would happily buy/use them where I was allowed to. My only issue is with recasts of official products. But again, it's not a clear cut issue for me. If you spend the time and effort to do it yourself, and don't try to pass them off as the real thing, then fine. You do you. 

I draw the line at buying recasts. I just don't like people profitting from somebody else's work.

 

 

If somebody was struggling to get into the hobby because of the cost involved, I'm sure that most of us has some unused and unloved squads/characters kicking about they could give them...

In fact, in case anybody missed it, there is a thread somewhere recently of starting up a group for people to donate unused models to move on to new homes. 

 

I don't see the issue with recasts of OOP miniatures, because GW could just literally do a 3D print bits on demand if they *really* wanted to (BRING BACK THE CITADEL CATALOGUES DAMN YOU) . If they stop selling them, that's a business decision by them that they don't want my money, so I'm willing to buy components that are no longer available from wherever I can get them, especially when it comes to things like accessories that are purely aesthetic (Chapter-specific rhino and land-raider doors, anyone?)

 

 

Yeah, I can mostly agree with you on that point.* 

 

They would not be taking a purchase away form anybody as the model wouldn't be available anywhere else otherwise, so that's fair enough. With the caveat that it's not being passed off as being the real thing that your grandad bought 30 years ago, and it's been passed down generation to generation ever since. 

 

* - again, this is not all encompassing: specific circumstances, choices, intent to deceive or not etc would determine how I 'personally feel' about such a thing.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Nothing wrong IMO using bits to spice up an army… sorry I didn’t make that clear.

Edited June 22, 2021 by Black Blow Fly

[OldWherewolf]

What I mean to make clear, is that the rule set no longer matters to me, and if the 3rd party models align with how the art and setting are generally understood, then it's 40K, to me.

Wait, so you're saying if you're playing on a flat board, with a token that represents humans or orks/eldar/chaos/etc, with "planets" on the outer edge where you roll 2d6 and advance your token around to "conquer" a planet that you can fortify and charge others for attempting to be there? Maybe have a chance card that says "The Inquisition finds you, go directly to a penal planet" you'd still be playing 40K? 

 

Oh Wait...

 

Back on topic...  3rd party bits and models don't impact immersion to me.  In fact they provide great modeling opportunities and add a whole 'nuther level to the visual impact to the game.  That to me adds to the fun factor & immersion that I think adds to the game.  If I play my Space Wolvess again, I found a Celtic bear that I'm going to convert to TWC.  But I'm going to re-paint my SWs with a slightly off color so I can play them as BA/WS/Salamanders/etc.  Just close enough so they look like SWs, but not 100% so they can count as anything. 

[NovemberIX]

 

What I mean to make clear, is that the rule set no longer matters to me, and if the 3rd party models align with how the art and setting are generally understood, then it's 40K, to me.

Wait, so you're saying if you're playing on a flat board, with a token that represents humans or orks/eldar/chaos/etc, with "planets" on the outer edge where you roll 2d6 and advance your token around to "conquer" a planet that you can fortify and charge others for attempting to be there? Maybe have a chance card that says "The Inquisition finds you, go directly to a penal planet" you'd still be playing 40K? 

 

Oh Wait...

 

 

Speak it into existence and it shall be!

 

On more topical matters, my take on whether or not you're playing a 40K game is intent. Is the game being played intended to fit within the overarching setting or mythos in some tangential way you are playing a version of 40K. I take my que from the digital, specialists, and one-off boxed games. Space Hulk doesn't use any of the main tabletop rules, but it's definitely Terminators vs nids, same sorta feeling with Inquisitor Martyr or Burning of Prospero. It's all different ways to explore the setting in some unique way.

[Balerion84]

I think, technically, the answer is very simple. Seeing as many (most?) wargames exist as a rulebook only, without any books or miniatures (where you supply your own), you are playing 40k when you are using 40k rules. Everything else is secondary.

[Emurian]

I am kinda curious to check if people here would have problems with the above miniature being used as a Vostroyan conscript.

I know I won't get any slack for it in my group, tbh my mates rather applaud trying to make a themed army thats rare to see [vostroyans]. I do think I will have issues when bringing this miniature into an official GW store and wanting to play there. 

I think the above miniature will get denied as less then 50% is GW parts {belts, flask, gun are GW, body and head are Atlantic Wargames Grognard] The thing is where do you draw the line up to how much of a miniature can be changed before its no longer 40k?

I don't think the employees are going to bash my head in if I put down these guys below for example as its just a headswap.

[these guys are close to finished, 1 more to go and do some basing stuff and lenses]

But if I put these guys together on the board they look cohesive enough to show its the same army. Will this be allowed in an official shop? Dunno tbh I think its up to how much the employee and as pointed out where do you draw the line? a headswap is ok? how about a body swap? Can I swap out more then 2 components ? 

In terms of casual 40k I think that I am playing 40k if I would play a 500 pts match with spamming those grognard models on the field. Add a mortar squad, some plasma guns and your good to go. Regardless if the models are 40k or not I think the overall theme makes them fit into the 40k universe.

So short answer, yes, I do think you can play 40k with models that are not from GW. I just don't think you will be allowed to run them in an official store if its more then a headswap.

But thats why we have tables at home so. . do your thing. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

To me these are fine because a lot of work must have gone into making them and they look great too.

[Karak Norn Clansman]

Of course. GW has no reach over events around here. People have long taken the hobby into their own hands in the case of WHFB Swedish Comp and the Ninth Age, and there are no GW model rules on 40k tournaments. The setting is the core of 40k anyhow. Alternate 3rd party models playing to similar styles as 40k will be just as appropriate as any GW model.

 

It is your hobby at the end of the day. Just as it is your headcanon that rules supreme when all is said and done.

Edited June 25, 2021 by Karak Norn Clansman

[Bryan Blaire]

Regarding appearances - was it not, perhaps long ago in 40K now, that many things are based on STCs, but that even some of these had degraded, Forge Worlds lost the ability to use certain things, alternative materials were used (which could alter the configuration to support different structural engineering requirements), etc. - so the idea that all melta-guns look identical for all Imperial forces across the entire galaxy seems sort of insane to me. That may also come with my general mental disagreement with what’s what for 40K anyway though.

 

So in my mind, less than half, probably less than a quarter, of all melta-guns, plasma guns, autocannons, heavy bolters, etc. look the same. There should be some basics about them that are similar, but even those could be off - for instance, the plasma bottles that the Marines and Skitarii use are different, but they both have the magnetic coils - however, to me the exposed coils looks a little goofy, and I’d rather it just be the plasma bottles that contain the ammunition be similar (actually, my preferred appearances would be more that meltas are plasma, and volkites are meltas). Even Marine armor shouldn’t be quite as homogeneous as it is - there should probably be some subtle differences between the same Mks of armor made by different Forge Worlds/chapters who have the capability (who are probably even fewer than those that can make standard Imperial weaponry).

 

None of that should destroy immersion, because immersion is destroyed if all weapons look identical for the Imperium. Even the Eldar Craftworlds should have slightly different aesthetic appearing weapons, it seems like the only faction that wouldn’t apply to would probably be the ‘Nids. Now I realize that it would probably be insane for GW to try produce in that way, but the fact that they can’t doesn’t change the fact that there should[/i{ be visual variance in equipment in 40K - the in-universe appearance isn’t exclusively defined by the limits of 3rd millennium manufacturing.

 

I agree with the folks that have said “If you are playing with the intent of playing in the 40K setting, then a lot of the other stuff probably doesn’t matter near as much - if your story fits, then frankly, it’s a big damn universe.” Even cross-genre stuff could probably fit because the Warp did it, but at some point, even my acceptance is strained to the point of “I doubt the principles of Star Fleet or the Jedi exist somewhere in the 40K-verse” and snap.

[MegaVolt87]

I don't mind third party mini's/ scratch builds armies if they are done well. Lets be honest though, they are often not done well or the worse variants are selected when they are. GW raising the bar on their products forces a higher standard on alternative models/ builds etc. The cost of third party should be ignored because even the crap is relatively expensive in comparison to GW stuff. Keep in mind I consider 1:1 re-casts a separate beast in this discussion. Design and creativity should take primary place over a dollar saving when going away from official product. 

[Blurf]

Nothing wrong IMO using bits to spice up an army… sorry I didn’t make that clear.

Yeah, I bet you ARE sorry you've tanked your whole stupid argument.

 

To keep with the Ship of Theseus theme (one episode of WandaVision and suddenly everyone's an expert on identity metaphysics) by allowing third party bits into the conversation at all you've now created an arbitrary line where if you replace X number of planks it's still the same ship but if you replace exactly X+1 planks it's no longer the same ship with no logical justification as to why.

 

To me these are fine because a lot of work must have gone into making them and they look great too.

 

ARBITRARY! YAY!

Edited July 3, 2021 by Blurf

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It’s not really an argument, just an opinion whatever that’s worth.

[roryokane]

 

Nothing wrong IMO using bits to spice up an army… sorry I didn’t make that clear.

Yeah, I bet you ARE sorry you've tanked your whole stupid argument.

 

To keep with the Ship of Theseus theme (one episode of WandaVision and suddenly everyone's an expert on identity metaphysics) by allowing third party bits into the conversation at all you've now created an arbitrary line where if you replace X number of planks it's still the same ship but if you replace exactly X+1 planks it's no longer the same ship with no logical justification as to why.

 

To me these are fine because a lot of work must have gone into making them and they look great too.

 

ARBITRARY! YAY!

 

With due respect, that is entirely what this is.

So yes, either we ban third party pieces altogether (which i think most people agree is rather draconian) or you allow a free for all, or we introduce an arbitrary standard. I think having "x +1% of components" is a really shoddy rule, because it's trying to masquerade arbitrariness behind numbers.

Is that components by number (which would mean a large multipart kit could have LOADS of 3rd party bits whereas a relatively simple infantryman kit might struggle with more than a head swap)? Relative proportion of the components (so having some cool side sponsons is fine, but changing the whole hull of a tank is not)? What about by weight? (if so, assembled or unassembled, based or unbased, painted or unpainted, and your reasons for those choices are likely to be arbitrary too).

Some components are much larger than others (so a head swap is not usually a large % of the model being switched out, but a few hull pieces on a tank might well change how it looks entirely!). It would also impact on different factions differently, give how different models are put together. Simple example: space marine firstborn usually have at least 9 separate pieces (helmet, front torso plate, back torso plate, backpack, legs, left arm, right arm, and two pauldrons). If memory serves, Ork Boyz have what, a head, torso, legs, and left and right arm? so... five pieces?

let's assume we've got a boltgun for the space marine, and a shoota for the ork, so that makes 10 components and 6 components respectively. 

The sheer amount of variety you could have by swapping 5/10 of the space marine components for third party ones vs 3/6 for the Orks is just... yeah, that's not exactly equitable is it?

 

My personal standard would be:

Do the models fit with the 28mm scale of 40k? (slightly shorter humans from a world with slighly higher gravity is fine, humans half the size of regular guardsmen is not - though if they're an entire army of Ratlings and modelled to look as such, then fair, at least that's an aesthetic).

Is the aesthetic internally consistent?

Is there a lore precedent for the army's aesthetic? (there have been space marine chapters of every colour under Terra's sun, so that's easy enough, and Lawrence of Arabia in Space along with Space Rambo, Space Soviets, Space Redcoats and Space Panzergrenadiers, so yeah).

Does accepting the player's army into 40k break immersion for observers? I think most people would be hard-pressed to say that consistent aesthetic swaps would ruin your immersion in the grimdark of 40k.

Russian Napoleonic infantry in Space? Sure.

19th century British colonial troops in space? yep.

Medieval men at arms with lasguns? Yep.

Space Mongol/Hunnic Cavalry? Yep.

 

So for some armies, it's a lot easier to justify something third party - Imperial Guard being an obvious one, (Orks being the other, since they'll cannibalise anything and everything so you can orkify almost anything and it'll still fit!) and that's without coming to the issue of GW not producing kits for a lot of IG regiments any more. If GW doesn't make Elysians any more, and you can get models that look like Elysians, then you should be able to play them as such - it's GW's fault they're not making them any more.

 

This is complex, and ultimately if someone's got an army that has a consistent aesthetic that someone has clearly put thought and effort into, then anyone judging should probably give them the benefit of the doubt.

I realise this is just a screed on my particular arbitrary take, but there it is.

Or, as you say, we take Alexander' the Great's reputed approach to the legendary Gordian knot (he "undid" it by cutting it with his sword), and simply render the whole thing moot by having an outright ban, which I think most players would regard as consistent but unsatisfactory.

 

So, unless you ban any third party components whatsoever, you're always going to have to either draw an arbitrary line, or just eyeball it. The problem is always an arbitrary one unless you suggest that any part added to the ship of Theseus after its last voyage turns it into a facsimile/replica/what have you, because welcome to philosophy.

 

And I've never seen an episode of Wandavision, though I'm glad Marvel are trying to at least teach classics via the back door. It's not quite "Romanes Eunt Domus" but it'll do

Edited July 4, 2021 by roryokane