Armoured Breakthrough and Fury of the Ancients

[Valkyrion]

Armoured Breakthrough - cheesy or fun?

 

There doesn't seem to be any notable disadvantage, like in Armoured Spearhead where you give up VP's for losing all your tanks.

I haven't looked too hard at it in terms of which Legiones Astartes rules could break it.

 

Even without this RoW you could make a tank heavy army list with every unit in a vehicle if you so chose - but are fast, scoring, predators too much?

 

Is it a 'consult your opponent first' situation with this RoW?

 

 

Fury of the Ancients

 

Am I missing something? The negatives far outweigh scoring dreadnoughts do they not? Forge lord, medicae and master of the legion to unlock it in the first place, but then giving up 1 vp for each dead dread?

 

Massed dreadnoughts would be super cool to do - but why so heavy on the downsides compared to armoured breakthrough? 

[Noserenda]

Armoured breakthrough works fine, played it a fair few times without complaints. Though its worth mentioning our meta is very armour heavy and im usually fielding a full Predator company so hardly pushing the rules to the limits lol.

Fury of ancients is definitely weirdly punitive, ive built lists for it even if ive never run it and its awkward as hell even before you hit the field but if you want to field serious numbers of dreads its.... Not even a good option since they added the new HQ in the last book who lets you take a retinue of them... *sigh* Id guess the people fielding it are the real narrative types :) 

[ShadowCore67]

I've never played Armoured Breakthrough, although it always kinda seemed like a "let your opponent know" type of thing. You could play it tamely. But you could also totally abuse it. Especially Iron Hands with Ferrus.

 

Ancients will never be worth it in my mind because of the VPs.

[Mogsam]

Armoured breakthrough is hit or miss. Its either amazing or the enemy is tooled for it. For every Raven Guard there's a Iron Warriors.

 

The dread one is just pants unfortunately. It might be okay if the dread could be a HQ, but you don't want three characters when you're trying to go pure dread.

[LameBeard]

Radio Free Istvaan guys made a lot of Armoured Breakthrough lists, with the trick of only the two compulsory predators, and then loading up in (scoring) infantry in tanks that gain ‘fast’. That seems to be the strength, rather than scoring (basic) predators being especially cheesy.

 

That ancients list is meant to represent the defence of the Conqueror or similar actions - it really didn’t need those compulsory characters - bit of a shame, really.

[Gorgoff]

I once played against an ancients list and to be honest: I didn't expected that list and it got me by surprise. I lost badly, I guess, and it was a wonderful game but I guess that since then our meta got way more vehicle heavy and because of this loaded with anti tank weapons it wouldn't perform so well again.

 

I guess it is always sufficient to just take half a dozen or so dreadnoughts as elite units and bob is your uncle. 

[sarabando]

Replace the character requirements with a praevian and the VP loss for units not just single dreads would make FOTA better.imo.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Both can be gotcha lists, bit as everyone else has said it really depends on how well rounded your opponents list is. If you're used to dealing with a lot of Av 11-13 then armoured breakthrough isn't really going to do too much to shake things up.

[Chaeron]

I think I've only seen one Fury of the Ancients list in the wild, and whilst I love the concept and potentially even have the resources to run it, I think it's really suited to a few Legions and a certain play style. In honesty, if I came up against an opponent with that list it'd be a massive shock - it reminds me of one particular Armoured Breakthrough list I've played against and would put me in a similar conundrum of how to deal with that much armour that quickly. I fear I'd be fishing for glances due the volume of AV facing me!

 

That said, I'm always up for a challenge, and I do think these sorts of lists in narrative campaigns would make for really fun games. I hope when we can get back to playing regularly that I can get some games in against less commonly used Legions and builds!

[Valkyrion]

Am I right in assuming that Jump Infantry are still infantry and are therefore precluded from Armoured Breakthrough lists?

I can't see any vehicles that allow jump infantry aboard.

[Lucien Eilam]

Yep, “Jump” is kind of a modifier, they still follow the rules for Infantry as well.

 

I think the only transport options Legion jump units can board are Thunderhawks and Stormbirds, which aren’t Tanks, so don’t meet the requirement.

 

If you take a Forge Lord with a cortex controller, you could include an inducted Thallax Cohort (Jet Pack Infantry) in a Triaros.

[lansalt]

In Armoured Breakthrough, is there any way to deep strike? like a boxnaught in a drop pod or Terminators with a Warmonger (having bought a LR anyway of course)?

[Lucien Eilam]

Dreadnoughts in drop pods are fine, as long as you don’t break the “more tanks than flyers/skimmers combined” restriction with Dreadclaws/Kharybdis. There are no restrictions on Sky Hunter/Slayer squadrons, which have native Deep Strike, so that’s another option.

 

An Infantry Warmonger Consul would have to be deployed mounted in a Tank transport. He doesn’t have any wargear restrictions, so I guess you could give him a bike/jetbike, at which point that restriction no longer applies.

 

Personally, the way I play 30k, I’m not even going to work out whether “bike-mounted Warmonger joining a squad of Terminators who bought a Land Raider as Dedicated Transport to meet the RoW restriction but aren’t using it so they can all Deep Strike together” is legal or not.  Feels like jumping through at least one hoop too many to get around the intent of the RoW. 

[Brofist]

The fluffy choice is a thunderhawk transporter or a stormbird. But yeah, there isn't an easy way outside of dread pods. Termites are another option for enemy backfield deployment. Edited June 23, 2021 by Brofist

[Jolemai]

I run a BA Armoured Breakthrough at 2500 points. Having all my smaller tanks Fast and giving pretty much everything assault cannons really appeals.

[Mogsam]

This thread has inspired me to try this out tomorrow.

 

Having a tax of 2 bare bones predators, sicarans in elites and not losing 1VP for pride deaths makes it seem very appealing. I take my troops in tanks anyway, so no real downside.

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

I'm just obsessed with building a full armoured company via the Rite of 5 Sicarans, 27 Predators, 6 Sabres and a Fellblade - no way I'd ever be able to actually collect it but maybe just one of the three 'phalanxes' that constitute it (One Sicaran, two Sabres & a trio of 3-strong predator squadrons) is possible *some* day.

[Valkyrion]

I'm just obsessed with building a full armoured company via the Rite of 5 Sicarans, 27 Predators, 6 Sabres and a Fellblade - no way I'd ever be able to actually collect it but maybe just one of the three 'phalanxes' that constitute it (One Sicaran, two Sabres & a trio of 3-strong predator squadrons) is possible *some* day.

 

If you use the Onslaught foc then you can knock 3 off the predators and 2 off the sabres, as long as you add another Fellblade or something...

[Jolemai]

I run a BA Armoured Breakthrough at 2500 points. Having all my smaller tanks Fast and giving pretty much everything assault cannons really appeals.

This was my deployment last time I played in case anyone is interested.

The rusty tanks are scatter terrain!

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

 

I'm just obsessed with building a full armoured company via the Rite of 5 Sicarans, 27 Predators, 6 Sabres and a Fellblade - no way I'd ever be able to actually collect it but maybe just one of the three 'phalanxes' that constitute it (One Sicaran, two Sabres & a trio of 3-strong predator squadrons) is possible *some* day.

 

If you use the Onslaught foc then you can knock 3 off the predators and 2 off the sabres, as long as you add another Fellblade or something...

 

 

oh I just like it via Armoured Breakthrough with the standard FoC 'cause having 3 of those 'phalanxes' with two extra sicarans in the lead phalanx and a support fellblade feels like a good armoured company organisation

[Noserenda]

I'm just obsessed with building a full armoured company via the Rite of 5 Sicarans, 27 Predators, 6 Sabres and a Fellblade - no way I'd ever be able to actually collect it but maybe just one of the three 'phalanxes' that constitute it (One Sicaran, two Sabres & a trio of 3-strong predator squadrons) is possible *some* day.

A full marine tank company is only 10 tanks, well, i also popped on some ARVs and support vehicles ;) 

 

Keep an eye out on bargains and second hand and you can get most of the way to a Battalion before you have to start selling em, well, that and the brutal Malcador nerf meant 3rd company wasnt going to see another table :( 

 

I do have plans to get the whole thing built in epic scale though! 

 

Most of what i got in 28mm below, i do still have all the Predators, need to finish weathering them soooomeday...

 

47326496_10156796761830797_8929596720484974592_n by Noserenda, on Flickr

[Jolemai]

Hnnggh <3

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

 

I'm just obsessed with building a full armoured company via the Rite of 5 Sicarans, 27 Predators, 6 Sabres and a Fellblade - no way I'd ever be able to actually collect it but maybe just one of the three 'phalanxes' that constitute it (One Sicaran, two Sabres & a trio of 3-strong predator squadrons) is possible *some* day.

A full marine tank company is only 10 tanks, well, i also popped on some ARVs and support vehicles  

 

Keep an eye out on bargains and second hand and you can get most of the way to a Battalion before you have to start selling em, well, that and the brutal Malcador nerf meant 3rd company wasnt going to see another table  

 

I do have plans to get the whole thing built in epic scale though! 

 

Most of what i got in 28mm below, i do still have all the Predators, need to finish weathering them soooomeday...

 

 

I was kinda going off what's described in the Iron Hands section of Massacre:

 

The Iron Hands Legion utilised its many war machines as support for individual companies and Orders, but also fielded large units of heavy battle tanks as distinct units. Such formations ranged in size from squadrons of less than a dozen vehicles to company and even Order-sized units comprised of scores of vehicles.

 

In the case of super-heavy tanks such as the Fellblade, between three and five vehicles would be considered more than a match for any foe less powerful than a Battle Titan. Units of Predators or Land Raiders might consist of forty or more vehicles and be sub-divided into numerous commands.

 

 

Admittedly, it doesn't really delineate company and order (the Iron Hands' battalion equivalents) size formations in terms of numbers, but I basically used the standard Legion company organisation but substituted infantry squads for tank squadrons, with 3 lots of 3 squadrons. That said, if any legion would field vastly over-sized armoured companies it would be the Iron Hands 

[Noserenda]

True they might do, tbh those numbers seem extraordinarily unwieldy in and out of universe, i suspect its the classic fiction problem of arbitrarily scrambling names of stuff but unit sizes generally tend to work on certain lines naturally based on universal issues. With some variation of course as people are always fiddling :D 

Typically the Imperium tends to use Soviet unit organisations for obvious reasons i guess, but about 10-15 tanks is a good guideline for a company, with squadrons (of 3-5) roughly analogous to infantry platoons in their deployment and then command elements. Weirdly, old Flames of War supplements are really handy for digging around various nations organisational plans if you are planning something big :) 

Ultimately though, the tank doctrine of transhumans of the far future can be whatever feels good to each individual, we are suuuuuper unlikely to ever get a detailed, well thought out look at it unfortunately :( 

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

True they might do, tbh those numbers seem extraordinarily unwieldy in and out of universe, i suspect its the classic fiction problem of arbitrarily scrambling names of stuff but unit sizes generally tend to work on certain lines naturally based on universal issues. With some variation of course as people are always fiddling  

 

Typically the Imperium tends to use Soviet unit organisations for obvious reasons i guess, but about 10-15 tanks is a good guideline for a company, with squadrons (of 3-5) roughly analogous to infantry platoons in their deployment and then command elements. Weirdly, old Flames of War supplements are really handy for digging around various nations organisational plans if you are planning something big  

 

Ultimately though, the tank doctrine of transhumans of the far future can be whatever feels good to each individual, we are suuuuuper unlikely to ever get a detailed, well thought out look at it unfortunately

 

yeah I imagine it changes based on the weight class of tank too, given the example of 3-5 fellblades being a match for most things - predators are light/ relatively disposable tanks to the Iron Hands so I imagine the smaller numbers would probably be more likely for a sicaran/ mauler company