Traitor primarchs? The weakest primarchs?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

So all of the traitor primarchs, particularly those who died seem to have been the weakest of them all (with the exception of Horus maybe) because many of them lost fights against their brothers even with extra chaos/demon juice running through them pumping them up.

 

Had Horus and the other primarchs turned would the imperium have been :cussed?

[Azekai]

So all of the traitor primarchs, particularly those who died seem to have been the weakest of them all (with the exception of Horus maybe) because many of them lost fights against their brothers even with extra chaos/demon juice running through them pumping them up.

 

Had Horus and the other primarchs turned would the imperium have been ?

Wait, which traitor primarchs died? Other than Alpharius/Omegon. Edit: forgot Curze.

 

Pretty sure Perterabo, Magnus, Mortarion, Angron, Lorgar and Fulgrim are all alive and kicking in the Warp. Or actively smashing stuff in realspace.

 

Edited June 23, 2021 by Azekai

[Brother Ramael]

First of all, it depends on what your definition of strenght is. Perturabo is not a renowed duelist among Primarchs, but he basicaly carried the whole last stage of the war on his shoulders (and would have possibly won had he stayed), so is he weak?

It is true that ( as Horus himself laments) the rebel Primarchs are the psychologically weakest but that's an inbuilt feature otherwise they'd have stayed loyal.

Yet you get, besides Horus:

-Angron, easily one of the top 3 fighters between primarchs when he's sane

-Perturabo is basically the only guy that can give the.. saner, loyal Primarchs lessons on war

-Fulgrim who strived for perfection in all things to the point of being one of the top duelists ever ( even if this cut its legs later on)

-Lorgar, while a poorer fighter than his brothers was the absolute best at motivation and morale ( the imperial cult is basically the bastard child of his obsession)

-Mortarion which while not the best in anything was quite good all around

 

I agree that Curze is basically a nutcase, Magnus rebelled by mistake and Omegon tosses a coin every morning to decide if he's loyal or traitor for the day, but overall they were a though lot.

 

Other than that yes, heretics sucks and long love the Empire

Edited June 23, 2021 by Brother Ramael

[MegaVolt87]

So all of the traitor primarchs, particularly those who died seem to have been the weakest of them all (with the exception of Horus maybe) because many of them lost fights against their brothers even with extra chaos/demon juice running through them pumping them up.

 

Had Horus and the other primarchs turned would the imperium have been ?

 

I think you meant loyalist primarchs- Ferrus, Dorn, Sangy. RG should technically be dead IMO also. Khan, Russ, Corax, Vulkan or maybe the Lion would have made more sense to return first of who actually is living. Guess the power of UM copium kept RG alive for Cawl aka Mr Deus ex Machina to bring him back to life. I hope he gets a good "death" in his Fulgrim fight to kinda be a Gandalf returns moment. Don't get me wrong, I love UM and RG in HH- but not in his opener at first resurrection at dawn of the new lore arc. I think a good Scouring arc ending with RG's "death" would really help his image. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

So all of the traitor primarchs, particularly those who died seem to have been the weakest of them all (with the exception of Horus maybe) because many of them lost fights against their brothers even with extra chaos/demon juice running through them pumping them up.

 

Had Horus and the other primarchs turned would the imperium have been ?

I think you meant loyalist primarchs- Ferrus, Dorn, Sangy. RG should technically be dead IMO also. Khan, Russ, Corax, Vulkan or maybe the Lion would have made more sense to return first of who actually is living. Guess the power of UM copium kept RG alive for Cawl aka Mr Deus ex Machina to bring him back to life. I hope he gets a good "death" in his Fulgrim fight to kinda be a Gandalf returns moment. Don't get me wrong, I love UM and RG in HH- but not in his opener at first resurrection at dawn of the new lore arc. I think a good Scouring arc ending with RG's "death" would really help his image.

the traitors needed steroids and other warp PEDs. So even juiced up they managed to fail.

Imagine sanguinius juiced on khorne' steroids. No primarch would have even stood a chance. (Hence why Horus was concerned about sanguinius)

[Azekai]

the traitors needed steroids and other warp PEDs. So even juiced up they managed to fail.

Imagine sanguinius juiced on khorne' steroids. No primarch would have even stood a chance. (Hence why Horus was concerned about sanguinius)

 

Yeah, how dare those weaklings fail to kill the Emperor, despoil Terra, and end the setting before it even began. Such weaklings /s

 

I don't really get this perspective. We aren't dealing with a real history with some-what verifiable facts.

From a meta-storytelling perspective, the hellish barbarians of the setting can't be too successful, otherwise everything dies screaming. 

 

I think they did what they had to do, in mostly-killing the Emperor and breaking His Imperium in half.

 

Edited June 23, 2021 by Azekai

[MegaVolt87]

 

the traitors needed steroids and other warp PEDs. So even juiced up they managed to fail.

Imagine sanguinius juiced on khorne' steroids. No primarch would have even stood a chance. (Hence why Horus was concerned about sanguinius)

 

Yeah, how dare those weaklings fail to kill the Emperor, despoil Terra, and end the setting before it even began. Such weaklings /s

I don't really get this perspective. We aren't dealing with a real history with some-what verifiable facts.

From a meta-storytelling perspective, the hellish barbarians of the setting can't be too successful, otherwise everything dies screaming. 

I think they did what they had to do, in mostly-killing the Emperor and breaking His Imperium in half.

A lot of people forget the wider meta arc of the Emperor against the chaos gods. They defeated the Emperor's plan, everything else is a sideshow.

 

Also

 

Me- Are ya winning Imperium?

 

Imperium-

 

It is the 41st Millennium. For more than a hundred centuries the Emperor of Mankind has sat immobile on the Golden Throne of Earth. He is the master of mankind by the will of the gods and master of a million worlds by the might of his inexhaustible armies. He is a rotting carcass writhing invisibly with power from the Dark Age of Technology. He is the Carrion Lord of the vast Imperium of Man for whom a thousand souls are sacrificed every day so that he may never truly die.Yet even in his deathless state, the Emperor continues his eternal vigilance. Mighty battlefleets cross the daemon-infested miasma of the Warp, the only route between distant stars, their way lit by the Astronomican, the psychic manifestation of the Emperor's will. Vast armies give battle in His name on uncounted worlds. Greatest amongst his soldiers are the Adeptus Astartes, the Space Marines, bio-engineered super-warriors. Their comrades in arms are legion: the Imperial Guard and countless planetary defence forces, the ever-vigilant Inquisition and the tech-priests of the Adeptus Mechanicus to name only a few. But for all their multitudes, they are barely enough to hold off the ever-present threat to humanity from aliens, heretics, mutants -- and far, far worse. To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be relearned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.

 

Me- ....

[Irate Khornate]

So all of the traitor primarchs, particularly those who died seem to have been the weakest of them all (with the exception of Horus maybe) because many of them lost fights against their brothers even with extra chaos/demon juice running through them pumping them up.

 

Had Horus and the other primarchs turned would the imperium have been :cuss?

The weakest primarch in terms of one on one fighting against their brothers would be pre-embracing of psyker powers Lorgar. Hands down was also the worst fighter of the lot just in general, and yet hes still alive.

 

As for the rest,most occupy a middle ground with the exception of Angron, Russ, and Sanguinius who occupy the top 3 slots (mostly based on general consensus). Honorary mentions to Vulkan as I will never forget it is also a hammer.

 

However when it comes to warfare, each legion had a type/role of warfare that they excelled in and were absolutely the best at that role.

 

To be honest, the imperium would be in the exact same state that it is now despite whomever fell to chaos, otherwise we wouldn't be playing in a 30+year old setting.

[Excessus]

Weakest primarch?

 

 

Short answer: Lorgar

 

Long answer: Lorgar Aurelian, primarch of the Word Bearers

 

 

;)

[Karhedron]

Yeah, even after ascending to Daemonhood, Lorgar still got his golden backside handed to him by Corax (Shadows of the Past). Mind you, Corax seems to have found some way level-up in the Eye of Teror without actually turning to Chaos.

 

This seems to be a pretty galling revelation to Lorgar as it implies he didn't have to sell his soul.

[MegaVolt87]

Yeah, even after ascending to Daemonhood, Lorgar still got his golden backside handed to him by Corax (Shadows of the Past). Mind you, Corax seems to have found some way level-up in the Eye of Teror without actually turning to Chaos.

 

This seems to be a pretty galling revelation to Lorgar as it implies he didn't have to sell his soul.

 

I mean, I would lock myself away as well getting my butt handed to me by someone who is warp touched, but not blessed to daemonhood by the four. For all we know, Corax is still waiting in the corridors of Lorgars inner sanctum to finish the job should Lorgar emerge... 

[Kaldoth]

I wouldn't say they were the weakest at all. You have to have a basis of comparison, and there isn't one established here. Weakest in comparison to what? As a whole compared to loyalists? Loyalist x vs traitor y? What are we looking at?

 

There are loads of examples of traitor primarchs absolutely tearing their loyalist brothers apart. Kurze beat the tar out of Dorn and almost killed him. He tortured and murdered Vulkan endlessly until he teleported out. Fulgrim killed Ferrus. No loyalist primarch came close to the psychic mastery of Magnus pre heresy and certainly not post. Not even Sanguinius. The only primarch I think could conceivably fight Angron with a chance of winning is Russ.

 

The reason the traitors failed in the heresy isn't because they were "weaker" than their loyalist brothers. They were flawed, simple as that. That's part of the reason why I like them so much more than the loyalists. In a twisted way, they're more human.

[Vesalius]

I don’t think they’re weaker; I think they had to lose so the story could continue. Also Curze died so the Apocalypse Now references could be really hammered in.

 

If you want to avoid using writing as the reason, I’d say the chaos juice has negatives as well as positives in terms of combat. Traits go to extremes and tempered natures are lost. Perturabo seems to be portrayed as a calculating and competent fighter, and I thought Alpharius was as well.

 

The only outlier I can think of is Lorgar, and I think someone at the BL has it out for him. I’m hoping if/when they bring him back, they have him portrayed as an actual threat, because I feel like they have made the Word Bearers kind of a joke in the eyes of the wider community (Lorgar being weak and Erebus being the Saturday morning cartoon villain mastermind). Which is sad, because I love the WB and feel like they should be portrayed like Black Templars with demon wrangling

[TrawlingCleaner]

It's an arguement that always comes up and the honest answer is: any Primarch is the strongest at any given time due to the whims of the writers. There is no baseline for each primarch, there's no discernable power level, they win or lose their duels, battles etc due to plot reasons (Deus Ex Machina) not because they're actually weaker. Sangy and Horus have such little written about their prowess, we're just assuming that everyone fears them for a reason.

 

 

IMO it's a question that's been done to death and just turns into the classic "my dad is stronger than your dad".

[Plague _Lord]

I think it comes down to the core traits of the Traitor Primarchs being less combat oriented - 

 

Perturabo - The Inventory.

Magnus - The Scholar.

Lorgar - The Priest.

Alpharius/Omegon - The Schemer/CIA.

 

of course we also have a few who's traits were pretty much alligned with killing, and they were probably the best of all when it comes to fighting:

 

Angron - The Gladiator.

Fulgrim - The Duelist.

Curze - The Murderer

 

To finish up we also have to weird outliers who's traits don't explicitly scream "warrior".

 

Hours - The Leader.

Mortarion - I don't know really - he's tough and all but his story just seems like he's unlucky and mostly manipulated into the bad things he does.

 

and they have to go against:

 

Sangy - The Angel of War.

Russ - The executioner, The Viking, The War Dog.

Corax - The Assassin.

Lion - The Knight.

Khan - The Raider.

Ferrus - The Weaponsmith.

The Emperor - ass.

 

Gman, Dorn and Vulkan had pretty peacful traits.

 

So it just seems to me it was a rebellion of scholars and the enlightened that had to go against a bunch of aggressive warriors so of course they had a hard match up against them. It just seems to me that the rebels were more human and would have thrived in peacetime whereas the loyalists were more weapons of war. But sill Angron, Fulgrim and Curze were in the top if it goes for 1v1 fight vs their brothers.

Edited June 30, 2021 by Xenith

[Valkyrion]

If you swap any traitor legion for Sanguinius and the Blood Angels then the traitors win, IMO. 

[Excessus]

If you swap any traitor legion for Sanguinius and the Blood Angels then the traitors win, IMO. 

If you swap Sanguinius/BA for Perturabo/IW the traitors wouldn't even get past the first wall...

[Sception]

If you swap blood angels for word bearers, there's no heresy in the first place.  if you swap them for sons of horus, then the heresy never grows large enough to be a galactic threat.  The heresy was about more than just who could punch out the most bloodthirsters in hand to hand.

[mc warhammer]

I think it comes down to the core traits of the Traitor Primarchs being less combat oriented -

 

Perturabo - The Inventory.

Magnus - The Scholar.

Lorgar - The Priest.

Alpharius/Omegon - The Schemer/CIA.

 

of course we also have a few who's traits were pretty much alligned with killing, and they were probably the best of all when it comes to fighting:

 

Angron - The Gladiator.

Fulgrim - The Duelist.

Curze - The Murderer

 

To finish up we also have to weird outliers who's traits don't explicitly scream "warrior".

 

Hours - The Leader.

Mortarion - I don't know really - he's tough and all but his story just seems like he's unlucky and mostly manipulated into the bad things he does.

 

and they have to go against:

 

Sangy - The Angel of War.

Russ - The executioner, The Viking, The War Dog.

Corax - The Assassin.

Lion - The Knight.

Khan - The Raider.

Ferrus - The Weaponsmith.

The Emperor - ass.

 

Gman, Dorn and Vulkan had pretty peacful traits.

 

So it just seems to me it was a rebellion of scholars and the enlightened that had to go against a bunch of aggressive warriors so of course they had a hard match up against them. It just seems to me that the rebels were more human and would have thrived in peacetime whereas the loyalists were more weapons of war. But sill Angron, Fulgrim and Curze were in the top if it goes for 1v1 fight vs their brothers.

having any of those traits doesn't preclude a primarch from being a beast in battle. just means they all have extra hobbies and angron and curze don't

 

fulgrim isn't a renowned weaponsmith but he's on par with ferrus and vulkan in that arena if he chooses to be

Edited June 30, 2021 by Xenith

[Xenith]

I think it comes down to the core traits of the Traitor Primarchs being less combat oriented - 

 

Perturabo - The Inventory.

Magnus - The Scholar.

Lorgar - The Priest.

Alpharius/Omegon - The Schemer/CIA.

 

of course we also have a few who's traits were pretty much alligned with killing, and they were probably the best of all when it comes to fighting:

 

Angron - The Gladiator.

Fulgrim - The Duelist.

Curze - The Murderer

 

To finish up we also have to weird outliers who's traits don't explicitly scream "warrior".

 

Hours - The Leader.

Mortarion - I don't know really - he's tough and all but his story just seems like he's unlucky and mostly manipulated into the bad things he does.

 

and they have to go against:

 

Sangy - The Angel of War.

Russ - The executioner, The Viking, The War Dog.

Corax - The Assassin.

Lion - The Knight.

Khan - The Raider.

Ferrus - The Weaponsmith.

The Emperor - ass.

 

Gman, Dorn and Vulkan had pretty peacful traits.

 

So it just seems to me it was a rebellion of scholars and the enlightened that had to go against a bunch of aggressive warriors so of course they had a hard match up against them. It just seems to me that the rebels were more human and would have thrived in peacetime whereas the loyalists were more weapons of war. But sill Angron, Fulgrim and Curze were in the top if it goes for 1v1 fight vs their brothers.

 

I mean, these are all your opinions based on a single trait of complex characters, chosen to suit the agenda you're trying to push - it could easily be:

 

The combat oriented traitors:

Perturabo - The Siege Master

Magnus - The Sorcerer Supreme

Lorgar - The Righteousness of Cause

Alpharius/Omegon - The Saboteur

Angron - The psychotic enhanced berzerker

Fulgrim - The perfect warrior

Curze - The master of psychological warfare

Horus - The Charismatic Leader and strategic genius.

Mortarion - The Unstoppable

 

and they have to go against this bunch of misfits:

 

Sangy - The pretty-boy angelic figurehead of the Imperium

Russ - The one who follows orders without question/gets easily distracted and chases his tail

Corax - Galactic hide and seek champion M30 - M41

Lion - The unempathetic dad who can't control his kids

Khan - The one who just really enjoys fighting

Ferrus - The methodical one with anger issues

Roboute - The one who really thinks he should be in charge

The Emperor - The other unempathetic dad who can't control his kids

 

In the end, Lorgar had 50 years to pick and groom the best Primarchs to persecute his rebellion, and he chose the ones he did. Horus had another couple of years on top of that to bring others to his cause, but he couldn't. 

 

This topic, and all like it, is all shades of grey, and all characters had flaws. It's too wrapped up in opinion for a conclusion to be reached, so we'll be keeping an eye on it.

Edited June 30, 2021 by Xenith

[Ishagu]

Fulgrim, Perturabo and Horus were amongst the best of the Primarch when it comes to their capabilities as generals and warriors.

 

Others like Lorgar, Mortarion and Angron were definitely amongst the least effective in the theatre of war and leadership.

[Special Officer Doofy]

Fulgrim, Perturabo and Horus were amongst the best of the Primarch when it comes to their capabilities as generals and warriors.

 

Others like Lorgar, Mortarion and Angron were definitely amongst the least effective in the theatre of war and leadership.

Pretty sure Mortarion and Lorgar had decent leadership, and their Legions are still the most unified for chaos (besides iron warriors, and black legion is made up of alot of other Legions/chapters at this point). And most of what I read about dusk raiders / death guard / Mortarion had them winning their fights. If you want to blame Typhus on Mortarion, then you should rank the Lion beneath him for leadership then.

[Ishagu]

The Lion was an incredible tactician but a very poor leader of men.

 

Mortarion was neither.

 

Lorgar, with his entire Legion, alongside Angron and his own, were out-maneuvered and outperformed by the crippled Ultramarines during the Heresy. Guilliman was a more capable commander by himself than half of the traitors could hope to be combined. This is just one example.

 

Others like Fulgrim and Horus are just as capable as the very best of the loyalists. Fulgrim got the better of Guilliman during the scouring, it should be pointed out. I'm not talking about a duel, but in an engagement between their fleets.

 

Perturabo was very pragmatic which ultimately would make him very dangerous as a foe. He wouldn't let pride, or a desire for glory, get in the way of his plans.

Edited June 30, 2021 by Ishagu

[Xenith]

 

Pretty sure Mortarion and Lorgar had decent leadership, and their Legions are still the most unified for chaos 

 

 

Blame a genetic proclivity for religion on the Word Bearers being more unified than most - as I recall, Mortarion has been hiding away for 10,000 years meditating on the true nature of chaos as opposed to leading his Legion. Maybe you could say Erebus or Kor Phaeron are doing the leg work, but nor Lorgar. He was largely despised, even among his own brothers.

[Special Officer Doofy]

Eh, that's all your own heavily biased opinion favoring loyalist Ishagu. And in your example, most sources has the ultramarine legion almost the size of the word bearers AND world eaters combined, so even crippled they outnumber most legions. The ultramarines are the poster boys and largest legion. Nobodies plot armor is thicker than Guilliman's. 10,000 year stasis, really? How was fulgrim a great leader compared to the others you are disparaging? He made some bad decisions during the heresy and let a Daemon take him over and kind of abandoned his legion. I mean none of them are perfect, and the traitors did on average have more flaws, rougher upbringing and bad relationship with the emperor.

 

But as Metalmammoth said, at the end of the day something is only what the current of many writers deem it to be.

Edited June 30, 2021 by Putrid Choir