Vehicle Valid for Space Marines?

[domsto]

Hello Guys

 

So i was looking into the Codex a bit deeper the other day to build a List for my Imperial Fists, and i can't shack the Feeling that Vehicle are somewhat lackluster.

They seem a bit to fragil and expansiv for what they can bring to the Table.

 

You also cannot buff them to the same extend as you can buff Infantry, as most Stratagems are Infantry only and the Lack of "Core" Keyword excludes them from any reroll Auras.

 

Also the Damage output seems to fall short compared to say something like Hellblasters or Eradicator point for Point.

 

On Top of that Vehicle are far more vulnerable to all the low Shots hight Damage Guns GW seems to favor this Edition.

 

So for short Vehicle seem to fall behind Infantry in all but movement Point for Point

 

But as i am not a Space Marines expert my conclusions might be wrong as well

Thats why i want to know what the broader Space Marines Community thinks of this.

Do you Guys use Vehicle?

If yes why? or if not why not?

 

[Captain Idaho]

Personally I do use vehicles, damn the Internet aversion! Sure, Melta hurts them, but it always has.

 

You see, I cut my teeth back in editions where 1 shooting a vehicle is dead easy. Even Land Raiders. With 1 melta gun.

 

I'm not bothered too much by 3 Attack Bikes nuking a Dreadnought of mine.

 

The trick is to take several. A single vehicle will be a target, whilst 2 Typhoons, 2 Razorbacks, a Redemptor and an Ironclad will prove a difficult situation for that melta team to target.

 

Don't get me wrong, there's some serious issues on vehicle survivability especially the more expensive ones, but several of the cheaper vehicles are still quite useful on the table.

Edited June 24, 2021 by Captain Idaho

[Karhedron]

Most Marine main battle tanks are pretty poor in 9th edition. You are right that their damage output is often below infantry equivalents and they are vulnerable to melta. But some of the support vehicles are pretty decent for the price.

 

Razorbacks are pretty cheap. For around 120 points the twin assault cannon version will give you plenty of anti-infantry fire and can also transport a unit of Firstborn Marines in reasonable safety.

 

Stalkers are T8 and put out a decent volume of S7 2D shots. These are very good against Drukhari skimmers which are all the rage at the moment and can threaten heavier vehicles and Marines too with weight of fire. Again, they are quite cheap for what they bring.

 

Vindicator. T8 and a 2+ save (if you take the Siege shield) make this pretty tough and again, it is cheap. The Demolisher cannon provides a decent amount of firepower although D6 shots is very swingy. While it does not pack quite as much punch as a squad of Eradictors, it is around the same price, faster and tougher.

 

Whirlwind. Many armies like hiding squads to nab Objectives so the ability to fire indirectly can be handy. Park it out of LOS and just use it to harass the enemy.

 

Impulsors are not as good as they were in 8th edition but are still a good way to get a squad of Bladeguard Vets to their destination. I would not spam them but since BGVs are one of the better units in 9th, that gives Impulsors a valid role.

 

Dreadnoughts are not strictly vehicles but are really good in 9th edition. Several options are good but I like using them as Multimelta caddies. Stomp them into the midfield and either shoot or charge as the situation dictates. Regular, Venerable and Contemptor Dreads all have access to MMs, and do not degrade. The Redemptor is also really good in 9th edition and mine has been MVP in several recent matches.

[Captain Idaho]

I think a single Redemptor alongside a pair of Contemptors is really solid as a "team". Their speed is relevant to each other and can all fight well whilst having weapons that complement each other.

 

If you're taking Dreads, take a few.

 

It's all in saturation.

 

(They are vehicles by the way)

 

I pretty much agree with all the vehicles listed above by Karhedron. I'd add Land Speeders to the mix, since they're fairly cheap and provides decent firepower that supplements an army. Typhoons are really interesting as they're longer ranged and thus require dedicated firepower to deal with that won't be firing at your other vehicles.

[Ishagu]

The Gladiators are decent when backed by a tech marine.

 

Not the long range variant though, that one is awful.

 

The Redemptor is rock solid.

Edited June 24, 2021 by Ishagu

[Captain Idaho]

I don't think Gladiators are that bad either. I think they need a little careful use, to avoid melta death by screening etc, but then I think folk aren't using their armies correctly.

 

Dare I say it, I think people need more basic infantry to provide screens for armoured vehicles like the older editions, simulating real life. No unit should be an island.

 

The big exceptions to this are Land Raiders and Repulsors. They're designed to get close and unleash a devastating cargo but are very vulnerable when doing so and very inefficient at doing those things.

 

When teleport and Impulsors do the job cheaper or for free (though Teleport requires support from other characters and CP so isn't free though cheaper than a Land Raider) then those vehicles have a problem.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

If you really want to get the most out of a tank, you need to run them as Iron Hands. Our FNP adds an extra layer of durability to them; we can add to their saving throw; we have extra ways of repairing them; and your opponent must kill them totally because our tanks basically don't get bracketed.

[XeonDragon]

What makes you recommend the stalker for anti DE duties? Doesn't the +1 to hit and 2 shots (i.e. 12 shots instead of 6 from the two Icarus stormcannons) work against the aircraft keyword and not the fly keyword? Am I missing something? 

 

Most Marine main battle tanks are pretty poor in 9th edition. You are right that their damage output is often below infantry equivalents and they are vulnerable to melta. But some of the support vehicles are pretty decent for the price.

 

Razorbacks are pretty cheap. For around 120 points the twin assault cannon version will give you plenty of anti-infantry fire and can also transport a unit of Firstborn Marines in reasonable safety.

 

Stalkers are T8 and put out a decent volume of S7 2D shots. These are very good against Drukhari skimmers which are all the rage at the moment and can threaten heavier vehicles and Marines too with weight of fire. Again, they are quite cheap for what they bring.

 

Vindicator. T8 and a 2+ save (if you take the Siege shield) make this pretty tough and again, it is cheap. The Demolisher cannon provides a decent amount of firepower although D6 shots is very swingy. While it does not pack quite as much punch as a squad of Eradictors, it is around the same price, faster and tougher.

 

Whirlwind. Many armies like hiding squads to nab Objectives so the ability to fire indirectly can be handy. Park it out of LOS and just use it to harass the enemy.

 

Impulsors are not as good as they were in 8th edition but are still a good way to get a squad of Bladeguard Vets to their destination. I would not spam them but since BGVs are one of the better units in 9th, that gives Impulsors a valid role.

 

Dreadnoughts are not strictly vehicles but are really good in 9th edition. Several options are good but I like using them as Multimelta caddies. Stomp them into the midfield and either shoot or charge as the situation dictates. Regular, Venerable and Contemptor Dreads all have access to MMs, and do not degrade. The Redemptor is also really good in 9th edition and mine has been MVP in several recent matches.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Iron Father is right as usual. Iron Hands has a lot of resources to make vehicles work hard for you.

[Lord_Ikka]

 

What makes you recommend the stalker for anti DE duties? Doesn't the +1 to hit and 2 shots (i.e. 12 shots instead of 6 from the two Icarus stormcannons) work against the aircraft keyword and not the fly keyword? Am I missing something? 

Yes, it is better against Aircraft than just Fly, but because of the strength and amount of shots (even if it is just six), it can do a lot of work against Raiders (3+ to Hit and Wound, 2D is decent if not great). 

[Captain Idaho]

Indeed, plus it is T8 so much more difficult to take down. It can also provide decent enough firepower against many targets in the game whilst sitting on an objective.

[Ishagu]

Stalker is still not worth it. Minimal damage. Or the Hunter. Both are absolute trash units.

 

A tech marine can give any vehicle a +1 to hit so keep that in mind.

 

A Librarian can give vehicles a 5++

That in combination with a Techmarine is decent for any chapter.

Edited June 25, 2021 by Ishagu

[domsto]

So i can conlude so far the Dreadnoughts looks like a good allround Unit. I might have underestimated the angry refrigerators.

 

regarding the Techmarine

Is he really worth his points for the +1BS?

Yes i know he can repair, but how often does he got the chance? In my experience so far Vehical either get oneshooted or take no Damage.

[Swordsman]

Among our vehicles Gladiator Reaper I think may have a place.

 

However, as properly said, Dreadnought are the best choice in this moment.

 

If in your battle plan you can afford the CP cost, FW contemptor with double volkite are an outstanding fire platform for saturation. I use them efficiently with both Ultra and Fists.

 

Redemptor are a staple, true beasts and if rightly supported by librarians for inv. and MOTF for repairs are Hard as Granite and hit like a wrecking ball. Both version Gatling and Plasma are strong loadout.

 

About techmarine, I’ve found it very useful as MOTF. Repairing 3 wounds per turn on a model that reduces damage by 1 and can have 5++ is powerful. The Bs 2+ is a nice bonus, as the MOTF trait.

Edited June 25, 2021 by Swordsman

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Vindicator Laser Destroyers. With Black Templars so you get a 5+++ on overcharge MWs,

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah that Damage 6 on 3 shots is amazing.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I really need to play mine. Thanks to a conversion and a FW messed up, I now own 3!

[Karhedron]

regarding the Techmarine

Is he really worth his points for the +1BS?

Yes i know he can repair, but how often does he got the chance? In my experience so far Vehical either get oneshooted or take no Damage.

You probably need multiple vehicles for the Techmarine to be worthwhile. In most cases, I think a Libby with a 5++ bubble is going to add more to their survivability and a one-off repair each turn.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I think Techmarines are pretty good, but it's a not a unit that just fits in every list like lords discordant (my brother claims that this is the best techmarine and besides it being chaos scum its kinda hard to argue that point). Typically when you see them in competitive lists, they're with a librarian, and several dreads. The librarian is running psychic fortress to get them all 5++ and its a basically a death star unit until it reaches mid field.

 

Iron hands and Space wolves are the best at this strategy. Iron hands are great with vehicles in general, add fnp to the dreads, and can make dreads into characters which prevents them from being targeted. Space wolves have some unique dreads of their own, use a slightly different combo to get +1 to save and -1 to hit, and can use strikes last abilities from various sources to make sure they hit first. Redemptors are a key unit for this strategy because they have 13 wounds which makes them a lot harder to one-shot than regular dreads and also fit the requirements for look out sir so the both support characters and character dreads can't be targeted.   

 

I do think techmarines will fit in more casual lists well as long as your running plenty of vehicles. If your trying to run tanks I think you need units like infiltrators to prevent deep strike abilities, and screens to protect them from the threats to the front. I do prefer the Primaris Techmarine because his Forge Bolter is pretty solid.   

 

[tychobi]

Astreus

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Too many points to be competitive .

[Snazzy]

I'm of the opinion Space Marines are one of the few factions that has functional vehicles.

 

 

One of the things to remember is that vehicles should not be competing with infantry for similar roles.  Infantry have the advantage of being "models" for objective control purposes.  Everyone knows the bit about infantry vulnerability to small arms, being stuck in engagement range, etc.  Vehicles should be used to do jobs that infantry cannot do, whether that is carrying bigger guns, shooting targets out of LoS, or moving faster than infantry.  It also helps that our vehicle fixers are also vehicle buffers.  In most cases a 2+ to hit is better than a 3+ with rerolled 1s.

 

The unspoken advantages vehicles have is that they poorly line up with many Secondary Objectives.  A mix of vehicles and infantry makes it harder for opponents to maximize Secondary points related to killing things.  You can build in such a way that your opponent is going to be giving up maximum points with either Bring it Down or Grind Them Down.  Firstborn are a little more favored here, because Rhinos and Razorbacks are only worth 1 point for Bring It Down... but you get the idea.