Is the Ultima Founding Primaris Only?

[Valkyrion]

I haven't read any 'new' lore that's not in a codex or rulebook but I was wondering if Ultima Founding chapters are exclusively primaris or if a Dark Angels chapter would still have Deathwing Knights, or a Blood Angels having Librarian Dreadnoughts and so on.

Or even if an ultima founding chapter would still run Vindicators and Stormravens etc.

[Xenith]

p.8, Codex: Space Marines:

 

"The Ultima Fouding was the most recent. Consisting entirely of Primaris Space Marines, created at the direct order of Roboute...".

 

All new marines were primaris, no none of the traditional stuff. Usually when we have a new founding, though, a command cadre from a parent chapter will join the new chapter to train and lead them, so you might still have some of the more chapter specific stuff, though in far less quantities, end dependent entirely on your own background fluff. 

Edited July 1, 2021 by Xenith

[Blindhamster]

Ultimate founding were primaris only. Lore wise I’d still expect them to have primaris versions of those units. We just don’t have rules yet

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I don't think having non-primaris veterans or HQs would be entirely out of place in an Ultima Founding chapter. We know from Dawn of Fire that Guilliman wanted veterans to lead and train the Primaris marines when they came onto the scene, partly because they lacked practical experience, were all a bit spaced out by the hypno-indoctrination/stasis, and they had no command experience. He also didn't entirely trust them as they were all Cawl's creations, and Cawl is enigmatic even to Roboute.

 

We see in that book a White Consuls firstborn captain given command of a Primaris demi-company.

 

If we take that idea forwards, it would be entirely feasible for a new, Ultima Founding Dark Angels successor chapter to have Deathwing Knights, perhaps to keep an eye on the new marines and direct them around fallen activities? or maybe a blood angels successor chapter was given a firstborn librarian to be their mentor, he was fatally injured and they put him in a dreadnought sarcophagus they obtained specifically for him?

Edited July 1, 2021 by Brother Adelard

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

While I wouldn't think it'd be impossible, it's not supported anywhere in the lore and in places (as with the quote Xenith provided) it's outright denied.

 

I guess it goes along with the Legiony aspect of the Primaris. There's just not the flexibility with them that there was with the latter-day Firstborn chapters.

 

If anything, I'd say maybe some of the later Ultima Founding chapters could have had a Firstborn who'd crossed the Rubicon somewhere in their command structure, but an actual Firstborn still using Firstborn armor and Firstborn weapons and Firstborn-sized cafeteria seating... very doubtful.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I think your conflating two different things. The Ultima Founding there relates to the vast horde of space marines which were created by Cawl, which were all Primaris.

 

But before they were divided into chapters, many would have fought as unnumbered sons, and we know at the outset they were often put under the command of firstborn veterans.

 

Not exclusively, granted, as the marines in gate of bones were led by a Primaris Sergeant. But it also appears in Dawn of Fire that some of the Primaris marines were awakened some time before the others, and they get less 'spaced out' as time passes.

 

Dawn of fire was in particular fascinating because of the in depth look at that process of awakening.

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

I think your conflating two different things. The Ultima Founding there relates to the vast horde of space marines which were created by Cawl, which were all Primaris.

 

But before they were divided into chapters, many would have fought as unnumbered sons, and we know at the outset they were often put under the command of firstborn veterans.

 

No.

 

The Ultima *FOUNDING* literally refers to the latest FOUNDING of Space Marine Chapters. Just like every other Founding before it - the Dark Founding, the Cursed Founding, the Sentinel Founding, etc.

 

It is not a reference merely to the creation of the Primaris marines. THAT is commonly referred to as "the Primaris Project" or something similar.

Edited July 1, 2021 by Lord Nord

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Ok, well either way. Dawn of fire is explicit that those marines would/could be led by Firstborn marines. So if the OP wants to create their own Ultima Founding chapter with firstborn veteran units, there is legitimate scope within the lore to do exactly that.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I haven't read any 'new' lore that's not in a codex or rulebook but I was wondering if Ultima Founding chapters are exclusively primaris or if a Dark Angels chapter would still have Deathwing Knights, or a Blood Angels having Librarian Dreadnoughts and so on.

Or even if an ultima founding chapter would still run Vindicators and Stormravens etc.

 

The Wolfspear are a primaris chapter that the space wolves reinforced with additional warriors. The salamanders sent chaplains to the new chapters with their geneseed (not sure if they gifted them anything). The Ultima Founding also reinforced depleted chapters like the Scythes of the Emperor.

 

Its a big setting there are always going to be some exceptions if that is the direction you want to go.  

[Ishagu]

Ok, well either way. Dawn of fire is explicit that those marines would/could be led by Firstborn marines. So if the OP wants to create their own Ultima Founding chapter with firstborn veteran units, there is legitimate scope within the lore to do exactly that.

Dawn of Fire does indeed state that, but by the end of Dark Imperium 3 there are plenty of Primaris promoter to higher positions.

[WrathOfTheLion]

The Wolfspear as mentioned before were reinforced from Fenris, and should thus not be only Primaris marines. So in lore, we have an example of them not staying as only Primaris, so I think it's open to do whatever you wish.

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

The Wolfspear as mentioned before were reinforced from Fenris, and should thus not be only Primaris marines. So in lore, we have an example of them not staying as only Primaris, so I think it's open to do whatever you wish.

 

Being reinforced from Fenris doesn't mean the reinforcements didn't undergo the Primaris process.

Edited July 2, 2021 by Lord Nord

[Sword Brother Adelard]

 

Ok, well either way. Dawn of fire is explicit that those marines would/could be led by Firstborn marines. So if the OP wants to create their own Ultima Founding chapter with firstborn veteran units, there is legitimate scope within the lore to do exactly that.

Dawn of Fire does indeed state that, but by the end of Dark Imperium 3 there are plenty of Primaris promoter to higher positions.

 

 

Oh absolutely, not disputing that at all, and you can use that passing of time in other ways, like the Dreadnought Librarian example I gave above. Heck, even in Dawn of Fire, the Lieutenant was Primaris, and was nominated for the role while still in the stasis pod. (I did find it amusing how they liked the awakened Primaris to 'imprint' with their new commanders when they awoke.)

 

The Dark Angel successor point is quite key in my view. I would imagine that there was perhaps a few raised eyebrows on The Rock when they learnt Cawl had created tens of thousands (or more) new sons of the Lion, none of whom know anything about the Fallen, or that it's their secret job to hunt them down. I can therefore imagine the Unforgiven being quite keen to insert Inner Circle members into Ultima chapters to act as a 'guiding hand' while also secretly steering them on the hunt, and assessing whether these new marines could be trusted with the secrets.

 

There's a lot of narrative space in this period, where a lot of things can go, without needing too tortuous a logic to work it out.

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

 

 

Ok, well either way. Dawn of fire is explicit that those marines would/could be led by Firstborn marines. So if the OP wants to create their own Ultima Founding chapter with firstborn veteran units, there is legitimate scope within the lore to do exactly that.

Dawn of Fire does indeed state that, but by the end of Dark Imperium 3 there are plenty of Primaris promoter to higher positions.

 

 

Oh absolutely, not disputing that at all, and you can use that passing of time in other ways, like the Dreadnought Librarian example I gave above. Heck, even in Dawn of Fire, the Lieutenant was Primaris, and was nominated for the role while still in the stasis pod. (I did find it amusing how they liked the awakened Primaris to 'imprint' with their new commanders when they awoke.)

 

The Dark Angel successor point is quite key in my view. I would imagine that there was perhaps a few raised eyebrows on The Rock when they learnt Cawl had created tens of thousands (or more) new sons of the Lion, none of whom know anything about the Fallen, or that it's their secret job to hunt them down. I can therefore imagine the Unforgiven being quite keen to insert Inner Circle members into Ultima chapters to act as a 'guiding hand' while also secretly steering them on the hunt, and assessing whether these new marines could be trusted with the secrets.

 

There's a lot of narrative space in this period, where a lot of things can go, without needing too tortuous a logic to work it out.

 

 

IF that had happened, one would think it would have been mentioned by now. Instead, we are basically told the opposite (the Dark Angels initially distrusted the Greyshields and Ultima Founding Unforgiven chapters, but eventually came to trust them after they proved themselves in combat... NOT because they infiltrated them and were controlling their access to information).

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Maybe not, we're still relatively thin on the ground for Primaris lore, for instance we know next to nothing about how they were practically integrated into the Black Templars, just that they were. I argue that my approach to the Unforgiven Ultima Chapters is a logical inference to draw, based on what we know about how those chapters operate. 

[Valkyrion]

What's the lore reason for Primaris being unable to ride Land Raiders or pilot Stormravens? 

Is just that 'they don't have to because we write the fiction and everyone has an impulsor to themselves' or is there a lore sensible reason? 

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

I argue that my approach to the Unforgiven Ultima Chapters is a logical inference to draw, based on what we know about how those chapters operate. 

 

Why? Like I said, it's pretty much the opposite of what we've been told (most recently in the Dark Angels supplement).

[Lucerne]

Just ignore the "lore" for it since it makes no sense (nothing new there for Primaris!) and there's enough wriggle room/precedent to do your own thing.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

This is great lore though for Primaris so why not use it ?

[SvenIronhand]

 

The Wolfspear as mentioned before were reinforced from Fenris, and should thus not be only Primaris marines. So in lore, we have an example of them not staying as only Primaris, so I think it's open to do whatever you wish.

 

Being reinforced from Fenris doesn't mean the reinforcements didn't undergo the Primaris process.

 

Killing over half the Kin-packs' mentors would be stupid.

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

 

 

The Wolfspear as mentioned before were reinforced from Fenris, and should thus not be only Primaris marines. So in lore, we have an example of them not staying as only Primaris, so I think it's open to do whatever you wish.

 

Being reinforced from Fenris doesn't mean the reinforcements didn't undergo the Primaris process.

 

Killing over half the Kin-packs' mentors would be stupid.

 

It would - good thing I didn't suggest that.

 

Do we KNOW that those mentors joined the Wolfspear? I only read about Grimnar sending "warriors" to join them. How do we know they didn't just choose recruits young enough to undergo the Primaris process normally without having to go the Rubicon route?

[Sword Brother Adelard]

We don't, but that cuts both ways...

[Dracos]

While I'm more in the Primaris only camp, It would be silly to think new Foundings weren't given Firstborn advisor/trainers for the New Chapters. I'm about as staunch Primaris only as you get and even I have a Venerable Dreadnought (Legends) to represent my Warhawks first Chapter Master. 

 

More to the OP: I could swear I read in a Warhammer Community that Primaris Chapters made use of Firstborn vehicles (minus transports, because stupid). I could be wrong about that though so double check. I sort of understand the tanks and speeders but do we really need a Primaris Stormraven?

[gorg_graggel]

In the lore Primaris use firstborn transports and vice versa afair. It's just the game that has that limitation. Edited July 5, 2021 by gorg_graggel

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

For sales prolly imo .