Astra Militarum Corps of Engineers

[Quantum]

Is there in the lore anything about an Astra Militarum Corps of Engineers? We all know about the raising of regiments for the Imperium, but those seem to be fighting formations. There needs to be a dedicated branch that digs the Proteus Command bunkers, raises the Walls of Martyrs, and builds all those other fortifications and infrastructure that the AM needs to wage war.

 

Sure, the Departemento Munitorum is responsible for such endeavors, but that is like saying the Department of Defense is responsible for erecting an airbase in some far-away counrty; technically true, but it will be the Corps of Engineers that do the hard work. Likewise it is the Quartermaster Corps makes sure base personnel receive their supplies, the Ordnance Corps procures weapons and ammunition, etc.  

 

 

[GreenScorpion]

According to some of the Imperial Armour books, most of the temporary fortifications are built by labour corps composed of prisoners, ogryns and other physically able humans that lack the skills or status to perform other roles. The expansion of the fortifications on Vraks used the labour corps to perform the heavy work of building walls and excavating areas for bunkers and other fortifications. In a regular loyalist army I would expect some small groups of engineers to set the tasks for the labour corps to perform and oversee the results.

[Quantum]

According to some of the Imperial Armour books, most of the temporary fortifications are built by labour corps composed of prisoners, ogryns and other physically able humans that lack the skills or status to perform other roles. The expansion of the fortifications on Vraks used the labour corps to perform the heavy work of building walls and excavating areas for bunkers and other fortifications. In a regular loyalist army I would expect some small groups of engineers to set the tasks for the labour corps to perform and oversee the results.

 

Any idea if these 'labor corps' are temporary formations raised for that one labor assignment (like slaves rounded up from the local populace), or a fixed part of some permanent organisation and are shipped to whatever assignment that needs their muscle?

Edited July 5, 2021 by Quantum

[GreenScorpion]

 

According to some of the Imperial Armour books, most of the temporary fortifications are built by labour corps composed of prisoners, ogryns and other physically able humans that lack the skills or status to perform other roles. The expansion of the fortifications on Vraks used the labour corps to perform the heavy work of building walls and excavating areas for bunkers and other fortifications. In a regular loyalist army I would expect some small groups of engineers to set the tasks for the labour corps to perform and oversee the results.

 

Any idea if these 'labor corps' are temporary formations raised for that one labor assignment (like slaves rounded up from the local populace), or a fixed part of some permanent organisation and are shipped to whatever assignment that needs their muscle?

 

The books refer it as something that gets raised from either local populace or is brought from the outside as needed and is controlled by the Munitorum. On Vraks most of them were permanently assigned to the labour corps, but on other books it seems like they were "conscripted" for the campaign. They are independent from regiments but might be assigned to support them in such heavy work as creating roads, build fortifications and so on. On Taros they were used to build the base camp and also clear aircraft landing zones if I recall correctly.

[Quantum]

 

 

According to some of the Imperial Armour books, most of the temporary fortifications are built by labour corps composed of prisoners, ogryns and other physically able humans that lack the skills or status to perform other roles. The expansion of the fortifications on Vraks used the labour corps to perform the heavy work of building walls and excavating areas for bunkers and other fortifications. In a regular loyalist army I would expect some small groups of engineers to set the tasks for the labour corps to perform and oversee the results.

 

Any idea if these 'labor corps' are temporary formations raised for that one labor assignment (like slaves rounded up from the local populace), or a fixed part of some permanent organisation and are shipped to whatever assignment that needs their muscle?

 

The books refer it as something that gets raised from either local populace or is brought from the outside as needed and is controlled by the Munitorum. On Vraks most of them were permanently assigned to the labour corps, but on other books it seems like they were "conscripted" for the campaign. They are independent from regiments but might be assigned to support them in such heavy work as creating roads, build fortifications and so on. On Taros they were used to build the base camp and also clear aircraft landing zones if I recall correctly.

 

 

That sounds like a believable organizational structure:  officers & experts for organisation, leadership & direction (Munitorum staffers, AM officers & AdMech Enginseers), a core of professional workers (including servitors, Ogryns, specialist munitorum workers and reassigned AM personnel) supplemented by menial labor (prisoners, slaves, local conscripts). I believe Japan basically employed the same system during WW2 (and I am fully aware that this implies the Imperium's Corps of Engineers also commits atrocities against its workers...)

Edited July 5, 2021 by Quantum

[GreenScorpion]

If I recall correctly there were munitorum "compliance experts" for the labour corps, essentially someone to keep them working efficiently. On Vraks these members of the munitorum staff were mostly disposed of during the revolution of the cardinal, only to be replaced by enforcers and similar slavers.
On Vraks a part of the labour corps was also used as a part time militia, so not all are necessarily civilian personnel and some might be actually paid for their work (even if poorly).

[Closet Skeleton]

The Death Korp of Krieg just have engineers as part of their regiments. They're mostly portrayed elite siege assault troops with drill transports in game but might do other stuff too.

[Lord Raven 19]

The new Uriel Ventris book has a pioneer and construction regiment

 

Edited July 10, 2021 by Lord Raven 19

[Quantum]

The new Uriel Ventris book has a pioneer and construction regiment

 

 

Interesting. That seems to indicate that the Munitorum does not have a dedicated Engineering Corps (as in a decidated branch separated from the fighting arm), but employs regiments that have specialize not in a certain branch of arms (like infantry, cavalry or artillery) but specializes in building stuff.

[jarms48]

If the Guard are reinforcing a world, they might use that planets indigenous elements for engineering works. Either dedicated PDF rear echelon units, the local population, etc. 

 

On the offensive that would be something the Munitorum would provide. Which could either be prisoners, slaves, pioneer regiments (essentially a regiment of rear echelon units), a mixture of the Guards own infantry manpower and their dedicated engineers.

[UtariOnzo]

Given the eclectic nature of the AM itself, you’ll likely find a range of solutions to the problem. Regiments would probably have their own specialist formations internally for engineering tasks they specifically need for their ‘bit’ of the theatre or smaller scale tactical engineering problems like pontoon bridging (think pioneer platoons in infantry regiments) while on a campaign/crusade level you might see specialist regiments (like the previously mentioned one from the Uriel book) and naturally large scale labour corps employed for bigger, strategic/theatre wide engineering needs like train lines, roads, airbases/temporary space ports for space-surface landings and large scale fortifications.

 

I’d be shocked if there wasn’t some kind of specialist senior officer staff dedicated to engineering within the Departmento, even if not a dedicated ‘Corps’ for Engineering. It’s a skill set that needs training and long term retention.

[MegaVolt87]

An engineer component implies a well trained body of troops. There would at least be several hundred in a typical IG regiment to organize it I would imagine. But, being 40k I could see them getting wiped after one battle potentially. So, they probably do more planning than frontline stuff unless necessary.

 

OT- I think Lecherus is a good example of a mere sergeant being able to organize defences and training of mortal troops when defending from the nids in the inital Ventris arc. An experienced SM Sarge or higher has close to or more than 100 years of experience to draw from is as good or better than a seasoned high command echelon of an IG regiment, especially on engineering. 

[Quantum]

To clarify my original post, I am not talking about combat engineers that form an integral part of a regiment; these probably do perform a lot of the engineering work for their regiment (like their present-day version, called the Assault_pioneer in some countries/traditions), from building stuff to blowing up stuff, even under fire, but are like a mortar platoon in an infantry company. Mortars give the commander some in-company artillery support without having a ask HQ for howitzer fire support that may not even be available, but on the other hand may lack the punch of a dedicated artillery unit. Likewise these assault pioneers provide some limited engineering skills and tools for the regiment to operate (and are probably great at cracking open enemy bunkers with demolition charges or planting/clearing boobytraps), but are still support for an operating combat unit.

 

Instead I am talking about Combat Engineers/Field Engineers/Sappers/Pioneers/Genisten (the modern-day term depends on the country and tradition, but the aforementioned terms are mostly equivalent; it is actually a very interesting historical topic) that operate in relative safety, further from the front, to build (or destroy) the big stuff with the big equipment. Things of which a Crusade Warmaster says: "There should be an impenetrable Fortress here. There isn't one now. Fix that."

 

Local and/or indentured labor may provide the raw muscle for such undertakings (as it has in much of real history), but there must be a core of specialists to with a warmaster can turn and say: "I need a fortress/airbase/spaceport/space station. Get me one." Who can then at least do the planning and design work, and arrange the required materials.

Edited July 19, 2021 by Quantum

[MegaVolt87]

Most Imperial field fortifications are STC based, they drop off in containers and get built like LEGO's. Remember guard don't always need a space port to land troops- having one means they are just landed faster/ safer. As with any troops, they will only be as good as their training/ equipment.

[Quantum]

Most Imperial field fortifications are STC based, they drop off in containers and get built like LEGO's. Remember guard don't always need a space port to land troops- having one means they are just landed faster/ safer. As with any troops, they will only be as good as their training/ equipment.

 

That is an oversimplification. STC simply means designs are standardized, it does not necessarily mean they are big lego-sets. Prefab colonist habs and equivalent probably are, as are certain bunkers, but a dedicated and long-lasting fortification or base will need anything from ground clearing to tonnes of ferrocrete to raise structures.

 

And just because you can get troops planetside without a space port doesn't mean you won't need a port. Compare it with history: during the invasion of Normandy, after landing on and securing the beaches, the first thing the allies did was build an improvised port. The second thing they tried was capture an actual port.

An in-universe, when the White Scars captured the Lion's Gate Spaceport during the Siege of Terra, it severely hampered Horus' reinforcement of his troops. 

[MegaVolt87]

A guard regiment doesn't stick around to waste time making permanent fortifications, thats the planetary governors problem and the PDF to man them in the aftermath of re-established Imperial control. Yes STC semi permanent fortifications assembled like LEGO's are definitely a thing and good enough for a protracted campaign.

 

Campaigns involving guard can last decades or longer. A space port only makes things faster, it's a nice to have but not a nessecity. Also SoT, Horus probably was only landing millions of mortals instead of tens of millions without space ports. It's a different scale of warfare to 40k and capabilities of forces. IG don't have a dedicated integrated fleet with them like the imperial army did anymore, which is why they preferred space ports back then. IG use big transporters to land direct to the battlefield, establish a drop zone and push out, no space port needed. Of course the trade off is more casualties and takes more time. 40k guard just get sent adittional regiments if the campaign stalls. Imperial Army had direct control over its fleet, and their reinforcement were the legions, vastly different.

[Quantum]

A guard regiment doesn't stick around to waste time making permanent fortifications, thats the planetary governors problem and the PDF to man them in the aftermath of re-established Imperial control. Yes STC semi permanent fortifications assembled like LEGO's are definitely a thing and good enough for a protracted campaign.

 

Campaigns involving guard can last decades or longer. A space port only makes things faster, it's a nice to have but not a nessecity. Also SoT, Horus probably was only landing millions of mortals instead of tens of millions without space ports. It's a different scale of warfare to 40k and capabilities of forces. IG don't have a dedicated integrated fleet with them like the imperial army did anymore, which is why they preferred space ports back then. IG use big transporters to land direct to the battlefield, establish a drop zone and push out, no space port needed. Of course the trade off is more casualties and takes more time. 40k guard just get sent adittional regiments if the campaign stalls. Imperial Army had direct control over its fleet, and their reinforcement were the legions, vastly different.

Well, I know a certain Space Marine legion that stuck around to make permanent fortifications  .  More importantly, the AM is heavily involved in attritional warfare and often fighting defense. As such, they need both fortifications and logistical support. Both need the proper facilities and they will most definitely improve their positions and infrastructure if they need to stick around for a while, especially on campaigns that take years.

 

Combat engineers were essetial in antiquity. They are essential now. They will not have lost their significance in the 41th millenium. 

[MegaVolt87]

 

A guard regiment doesn't stick around to waste time making permanent fortifications, thats the planetary governors problem and the PDF to man them in the aftermath of re-established Imperial control. Yes STC semi permanent fortifications assembled like LEGO's are definitely a thing and good enough for a protracted campaign.

 

Campaigns involving guard can last decades or longer. A space port only makes things faster, it's a nice to have but not a nessecity. Also SoT, Horus probably was only landing millions of mortals instead of tens of millions without space ports. It's a different scale of warfare to 40k and capabilities of forces. IG don't have a dedicated integrated fleet with them like the imperial army did anymore, which is why they preferred space ports back then. IG use big transporters to land direct to the battlefield, establish a drop zone and push out, no space port needed. Of course the trade off is more casualties and takes more time. 40k guard just get sent adittional regiments if the campaign stalls. Imperial Army had direct control over its fleet, and their reinforcement were the legions, vastly different.

Well, I know a certain Space Marine legion that stuck around to make permanent fortifications  .  More importantly, the AM is heavily involved in attritional warfare and often fighting defense. As such, they need both fortifications and logistical support. Both need the proper facilities and they will most definitely improve their positions and infrastructure if they need to stick around for a while, especially on campaigns that take years.

 

Combat engineers were essetial in antiquity. They are essential now. They will not have lost their significance in the 41th millenium. 

 

 

Agree, but those semi permanent STC fortifications can keep being built upon the longer a regiment sticks around, thus rivalling a permanent fortification, then packed up again when they move on. Yes the engineers are essential, but how they go about it is different depending on the time period. A regiment sticking around making permanent fortifications in 40k, when they are needed elsewhere is not a good look. Thats only their job when they get given the right to settle a planet, becoming the PDF and the regimental commander becomes the planetary governor and his staff officers the ruling class. 

[Closet Skeleton]

A guard regiment doesn't stick around to waste time making permanent fortifications, thats the planetary governors problem and the PDF to man them in the aftermath of re-established Imperial control.

 

Yes they do.

 

Space Marines provide the initial strike, Astra Milatarum garrison. That's literally how the fluff has always worked. There are no PDF on recently sercured/liberated worlds. It can take a literal generation to create a standing army worth anything.

[Quantum]

At any rate I am not trying to claim that a regular Guard regiment is responsible for creating the necessary infrastructure of war, which is exactly the point of this topic. Sure, a guardsman will be supplied with a shovel that will probably see more action than his lasgun, and each regiment will probably have dedicated sapper/pioneer units, but in all a the personnel in a regiment will be limited to digging trenches and dugouts, erecting barb-wire and placing minefields. They are first-and-foremost combat units, after all, and given the 40k's ignorance and superstition regarding technology probably does not have the technical know-how to create more complex structures.

 

However, to wage a large-scale war on needs to create an infrastructure of war, usually out of noting. Roads through thick jungle. Airbases in the middle of a desolate desert. Ports on barren coasts. Refueling points near the front. Train tracks across vast empty plains, etc.  Look at the pacific theatre of WW2 for example; we all know about the hard-fought battles of Guadalcanal, Iwo Jima, and Okinawa, but many people forget that these battles were waged so that the Navy Seabees could move in and build another airbase. And with regards to the 40k universe we can add starports and starbases to the list. 

 

These need to be created by someone, which involves bringing together the leadership, expertise, equipment and raw muscle to get it done, and I want to know more how the Imperium tackles this rather vital issue.  

Edited July 20, 2021 by Quantum

[Quantum]

I found some more information on Lexicanum, where an Engineer Corps is explicitely mentioned:

 

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Departmento_Munitorum

 

It mentiones an Engineer Corps and a Labor Corps as an office of the Departemento Munitorum.

 

Probably much is this lore is outdated; the source that names the Engineer Corps also depicts Abaddon without his trademark topknot , and I suspect that in the 40k universe, with its superstition and ignorance regarding technology that the word "Engineer" is not still in use. Still, it is a nice find about how the bureaucracy of the Imperium's military might is organized.

Edited July 27, 2021 by Quantum