Kill Team vs Warcry vs Other Skirmish games

[firestorm40k]

On the thread to discuss this weekend's Preview, that would seem to be revealing the long rumoured Kill Team 2nd Edition set, there were some comments about potential changes to the Kill Team rule set:

 

I wish they approached kill team like Warcry, or indeed rewrote it using the Warcry rules. It just feels too close to 40k at the moment, and this leads to a lot of inelegant porting of models from the bigger game into KT. I know that might not be what people want, but I'd love that approach.

 

Or if they used the LotR rules instead, which are wonderful skirmish rules.

 

But both perhaps too radical?

I have to agree, I'd love to see it reworked into a proper game in it's own right. As it is, it feels like a slightly bastardized version of main 40k, and now that Combat Patrol explicitly exists to allow 40k to be played at low points levels with relevant missions, board sizes and objectives, IMO that clears the way for Kill Team to be a bit more experimental.

Firstly, without wanting to sound disrespectful, I'd say that if you want to play Warcry, play Warcry. It is a different game to Kill Team, and it's meant to be:

 

- Kill Team reflects the 40k setting, Warcry reflects AoS.

- Kill Team is meant to be a smaller scale version of 40k mechanics; Warcry is more like a 'spin off' from AoS, where the focus is on a specific setting in the, uh, setting :lol: - the subfactions of Chaos followers. It was adapted to incorporate all the mainstream AoS factions, but certain mechanics are different to AoS. It is a different game - it's good in it's own way. But it has a different feel, again, to Kill Team.

- For me, the appeal of Kill Team is that it IS small-scale 40k; I can take a handful of miniatures from an existing army and play a game. I can raid my bits box and kit-bash a unique team for the game. If I want to try a faction I don't currently own, I can do a Kill Team without the commitment of a full army.

- Another big appeal for Kill Team for me is the specialists - I like what they add to the game, but more so I enjoy the opportunity they provide for converting and painting unique, characterful models. Warcry doesn't quite have that; although the sculpts for each warband are characterful in their way, and suggest a different role and style of combat, they're not quite the same in game as KT's specialists.

 

It's a matter of tastes, at the end if the day; if you prefer Warcry over Kill Team, there's nothing to stop you from proxying your Primaris Intercessors using, for example, the rules for Stormcast Castigators. If the Kill Team mechanics aren't quite as detailed as you'd like, use Necromunda or Inq28 rules instead.

 

Which brings me to another point that's frequently raised: Inquisitors and their Retinues should be brought in to Kill Team. In the one hand, I'd agree that there's currently potential that GW is missing by not releasing a set with an Inquisitor and retinue, along the same lines as the Elucidian Starstriders in the Kill Team Rogue Trader set. Such a set could have crossover potential for use in 40k armies.

 

On the other, I wonder if the options available in Kill Team are diverse enough to represent the full, esoteric range of staff that an Inquisitor might take (especially as portrayed in 40k fiction); here, Inquisitor/Inq28 is potentially a better option*.

 

Ultimately, Kill Team is what it is - no doubt there is room for improvement and changes that would benefit it; but if it's not to an individual's tastes, there are other games that can scratch their specific 'itch'. If you think Warcry is better, play that, adapt some of the rules so you can use 40k minis. If you want more detailed rules, there are other rulesets that have that. Despite it's flaws and limitations, if I want to get the flavour of 40k without having to set up a big table with dozens of miniatures, Kill Team gives me that. Your mileage may vary, of course :lol:

 

* How about one day GW brings back Inquisitor, with a new range of 28mm miniatures, and updated rules to suit? Now THAT would be great! :D

[INKS]

I asked about Kill Team the other day and this is the response I got from a semi local discord.

 

S

It's just not a particularly brilliant game imo.

I don't know anyone that plays it in UK regularly.

 

M

Kill team seems to be at the level of dnd.  Small groups that focus on the narrative,  progression side of the game.

 

S

The problem is that a 500 point 40k game is more tactical, faster and more engaging for most

 

D2

Feel like you could just play Infinity if you want to play kill team

 

D

Or any number of games tbh. It’s just not the market. Especially when they make 40K already playable at lower points levels. And they have crusade

They killed their own game tbh

 

 

I am sharing this because this is how people seem to see Kill Team currently.

[Halandaar]

Just to avoid myself being paraphrased here, I didn't say I wanted Kill Team to become Warcry40k. I just feel that the existence of Combat Patrol can allow Kill Team to uncouple itself from the structure of 40k even further.

 

Which brings me to another point that's frequently raised: Inquisitors and their Retinues should be brought in to Kill Team. In the one hand, I'd agree that there's currently potential that GW is missing by not releasing a set with an Inquisitor and retinue, along the same lines as the Elucidian Starstriders in the Kill Team Rogue Trader set. Such a set could have crossover potential for use in 40k armies.

 

Interesting you bring up the Elucidian Starstriders, because actually those "curated" Kill Teams are one of the aspects I think Kill Team could borrow from the likes of Warcry, or more so Underworlds; a specific roster of characters with their own bespoke abilities. By all accounts, Underworlds is one of GW's best balanced games, and that's because every warband is a fixed thing that can be tightly balanced against everything else.

 

I understand that you trade "your dudes"ness for that, and it absolutely would be a no for a lot of people. But look how cool the rules for Gaunt's Ghosts are. That's a perfect example of what can be done if you carefully craft a Kill Team with it's own unique models and rules. It would allow Kill Team to be a test bed for new races and updated sculpts for older ranges, just like Underworlds is for AoS. They don't need to commit to a full range of something, or even a full unit. 

[Lord Marshal]

My understanding from talking to people and reading 'round the 'net is that people enjoy Kill-Team because it's largely 40k with a handful of miniatures.

 

Sure there's Combat Patrol now, but ultimately you're still playing with quite a few miniatures and it's not as if GW balance is all that great when it has to be scaled down too low.

 

War Cry to me always felt like it was trying to be an AoS Necromunda/Mordenheim but with their 'modern' concepts of wanting all the options to be limited to what's on the sprue. The game isn't suited for one-off matches the same way Necromunda really isn't, very much being built around narrative and campaign play even though it's depth is severely limited by their terror at allowing you to do anything more than play with the models how they appear on the webstore. I suppose in some ways it's like if Kill-Team was only made up of Elucidian Starstriders and Gellarpox Mutants in terms of options (or lack thereof).

Edited July 5, 2021 by Lord Marshal

[LameBeard]

I think we should appreciate that Kill Team already plays quite differently from 40k because of the ‘everyone moves then everyone shoots’ system, breaking away from ‘I go you go’. In that sense it already leans towards LotR.

 

I really admire LotR and some elements of WarCry, but also see the attraction in having 40k-like stats for KillTeam.

 

Kill Team appeals to me because:

1) I want to collect small forces

2) I want to play shorter games on smaller tables

3) I quite like campaigns some times

 

I find I have a higher tolerance than GW for abstraction. I find their skirmish games layer on unnecessary detail at times, and that means games are not as quick-fire as they could be. Kill Team is a pain flicking around the manual all the time, stratagems and re-roll abilities hiding in umpteen places.

 

So I’m open to the rules evolving, but I’d like a bit of streamlining, which is exactly what they won’t do: they want another reason to sell all the models. They added monsters to Warcry. I think we’re gonna see more big models in Kill Team when it should be fewer.

 

This whole post is making me want to play LotR again - I thought that system worked well using the White Dwarf rules for small points match games on small tables, and the Battle Companies rules were ok too. But when was I playing this, maybe 15 years ago? Not sure if current version is the same.

[MithrilForge]

I understand where Halandaar is coming from as i discussed with some friends recently that GW should pop out little boxed teams for killteam just like they do in warcry...

Not to say we prefer the warcry mechanics, we just want boxes of new models in the 5-6 man package that can be "Tailored" to Kill team like warcry is getting...

I'm hoping the new Krieg rumour fulfils that  little wish of ours... 

I would like some rules tweaks, as others have already mentioned Kill team seems to be overlapping with combat patrol and crusade games.

I'm sure they will keep adding models to the roster (they do want to sell more of them  ) My mates and i will set limits on what we play to make it work for us...we don't have to use all the models GW tells us to (although if you go to a GW store or local gaming store then i guess you gotta play like everyone else does) 

 

Mithril

[Halandaar]

I would like some rules tweaks, as others have already mentioned Kill team seems to be overlapping with combat patrol and crusade games.

 

Good point that, not only is Combat Patrol stepping on Kill Team's toes in terms of the smaller game size, but also Crusade is doing the same with some of the campaign and progression aspects that made Kill Team a bit of a different beast from main 40k. 

 

I understand KT is an even more zoomed in version with the emphasis on individuals rather than units, and as mentioned already the way the turn works is a substantial-ish change from 40k, i just think two of it's major "unique" appeals have now been incorporated in to the main game of 40k, so KT just needs something to help it set itself apart.

Edited July 8, 2021 by Halandaar