Black Templar Teaser and Rumors

[Medjugorje]

but super doctrine isnt a part of the sm codex. We still use Doctrines - but not the superdoctrine from the index ( Knights of Sigismund ).

 

The SW are not fallowing the codex too and still have CT + Doctrines and Superdoctrine.

I am very very sure that we dont loose that mechanic (but just based on how GW released their books in 8th and 9th edition).

To show that BT work really different can be made in special detachments and/or slot changes or stratagems that change doctrines...

[Trignama]

but super doctrine isnt a part of the sm codex. We still use Doctrines - but not the superdoctrine from the index ( Knights of Sigismund ).

 

The SW are not fallowing the codex too and still have CT + Doctrines and Superdoctrine.

I am very very sure that we dont loose that mechanic (but just based on how GW released their books in 8th and 9th edition).

To show that BT work really different can be made in special detachments and/or slot changes or stratagems that change doctrines...

I dunno, In my mind it just doesn't make sense that the Templars benefit from doctrines lain out in a codex they don't adhere to in any way shape or form. 

 

I'd really like to not just be Codex Space Marines + we're a bit better at chainswords. I think we have more than enough in our background to completely deviate away from it. 

[jaxom]

 

I wonder how would the statline of "primaris neophyte" look like. If it only have w1 and cost higher than 13pts/model, it would fell in the category of "very uncompetitive", and waste the new-designed, fine-detailed model kits.

I’d guess 2 wounds, 4+ save

 

 

This is what has me curious. Mixed save units are one of the big hampers on fluid game play and have gotten fewer. It'll be interesting to see if Crusader squads stay that way.

 

 

but super doctrine isnt a part of the sm codex. We still use Doctrines - but not the superdoctrine from the index ( Knights of Sigismund ).

 

The SW are not fallowing the codex too and still have CT + Doctrines and Superdoctrine.

I am very very sure that we dont loose that mechanic (but just based on how GW released their books in 8th and 9th edition).

To show that BT work really different can be made in special detachments and/or slot changes or stratagems that change doctrines...

I dunno, In my mind it just doesn't make sense that the Templars benefit from doctrines lain out in a codex they don't adhere to in any way shape or form. 

 

I'd really like to not just be Codex Space Marines + we're a bit better at chainswords. I think we have more than enough in our background to completely deviate away from it. 

 

 

Because it's not a Codex Astartes thing, it's an Adeptus Astartes thing. That's why Space Wolves get it, too. 

 

There's two ways to look at it: mechanics and lore. Mechanically, the game designers have shown that Space Marines were made to be able to participate in all phases (metaphorically and literally) of the game. List design can push efficacy in those phases one way or another, but the ability exists. The rotating combat doctrines push that point. That each supplement so far works within that frame set by the initial codex reinforces that. Deeds are warlord traits, Ravenwing/Deathwing are subsets of Sons of the Lion, Visions of Sanguinius is a character upgrade. Black Templars will get their own uniqueness, but within the boundaries, not at their expense.

 

Lorewise, the Codex Astartes is not a theoretical thesis, but based on over 200 years of Great Crusade statistics and 100 years of Guilliman's observations of every legion battle he personally observed (and not just just his legion, the 13th fought alongside almost every legion at one point or another) and those he could find records/video of. Guilliman was not a tactical or strategic innovator, but a refiner. The tactics and strategies in the Codex Astartes are what most legions where already doing to one degree or another. The big change was organizational, which is why Codex compliance is based purely on the adherence of a Chapter to the chapter structure.

[jaxom]

 

I wonder how would the statline of "primaris neophyte" look like. If it only have w1 and cost higher than 13pts/model, it would fell in the category of "very uncompetitive", and waste the new-designed, fine-detailed model kits.

I’d guess 2 wounds, 4+ save

 

 

This is what has me curious. Mixed save units are one of the big hampers on fluid game play and have gotten fewer. It'll be interesting to see if Crusader squads stay that way.

 

 

but super doctrine isnt a part of the sm codex. We still use Doctrines - but not the superdoctrine from the index ( Knights of Sigismund ).

 

The SW are not fallowing the codex too and still have CT + Doctrines and Superdoctrine.

I am very very sure that we dont loose that mechanic (but just based on how GW released their books in 8th and 9th edition).

To show that BT work really different can be made in special detachments and/or slot changes or stratagems that change doctrines...

I dunno, In my mind it just doesn't make sense that the Templars benefit from doctrines lain out in a codex they don't adhere to in any way shape or form. 

 

I'd really like to not just be Codex Space Marines + we're a bit better at chainswords. I think we have more than enough in our background to completely deviate away from it. 

 

 

Because it's not a Codex Astartes thing, it's an Adeptus Astartes thing. That's why Space Wolves get it, too. 

 

There's two ways to look at it: mechanics and lore. Mechanically, the game designers have shown that Space Marines were made to be able to participate in all phases (metaphorically and literally) of the game. List design can push efficacy in those phases one way or another, but the ability exists. The rotating combat doctrines push that point. That each supplement so far works within that frame set by the initial codex reinforces that. Deeds are warlord traits, Ravenwing/Deathwing are subsets of Sons of the Lion, Visions of Sanguinius is a character upgrade. Black Templars will get their own uniqueness, but within the boundaries, not at their expense.

 

Lorewise, the Codex Astartes is not a theoretical thesis, but based on over 200 years of Great Crusade statistics and 100 years of Guilliman's observations of every legion battle he personally observed (and not just just his legion, the 13th fought alongside almost every legion at one point or another) and those he could find records/video of. Guilliman was not a tactical or strategic innovator, but a refiner. The tactics and strategies in the Codex Astartes are what most legions where already doing to one degree or another. The big change was organizational, which is why Codex compliance is based purely on the adherence of a Chapter to the chapter structure.

[Punchomatic]

This makes me wonder if we will eventually get a Codex Primaris.

 

As for BT rules we should 100% get something that balances out the complete lack of psykers. Meaning we should be unbalanced in some other portion of the game to make up for it. Better at hand to hand than Space Wolves or Blood Angels…makes sense when you consider what we give up.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

"The Codex Astartes –at least, the Eternal Crusader’s incomplete copy of that ancient text –detailed several thousand logistical concerns in the preparation, establishment and fortification of an Adeptus Astartes firebase.

Humanity did not invest so much into us in order that we should grind frontline to frontline in protracted theatres of war –that is the purview of the Imperial Guard.

The Adeptus Astartes are the falling hammer, the spear to the vitals, striking and withdrawing with the force of a killing thrust to the heart. But no plan survives contact with the enemy. Fortification and digging in during extensive worldwide Crusades are a necessity of the wars we fight.

While the Templars may not cling to the Codex Astartes with a tenacity bordering on worship of holy scripture, it is still the most comprehensive treatise on Space Marine warfare ever written, penned by the hand of the Emperor’s own son, Lord Guilliman of Macragge. Its value is immeasurable to any commander, no matter what divergences are found in a Chapter’s culture. It is said that no complete copies still exist in the Dark Millennium.

Even the original document’s origins are shrouded in more myth than truth. No records even exist as to whether Lord Guilliman wrote the Codex by hand across several dozen tomes, dictated it to nuncio-processors and servitor scribes, or compiled it himself into a hololithic library."

 

-Reclusiarch Grimaldus of the Black Templars - 999 M41

[Marshal Reinhard]

I suppose nowadays someone could just ask him 

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I suppose nowadays someone could just ask him

IIRC, he was a bit peeved by how dogmatic the application has been.

[redmapa]

I get why people may get peeved with a divergent chapter like us using the same rules that represent codex astartes doctrines but I think the progression of Devastator>Tactical>Assault is a great representation of Astartes warfare in general and not just "Codex Doctrine". Our Chapter's own combat doctrine follows that progression, we land small elements, clear a landing zone for a bigger mechanized assault which is supported by a creeping orbital/artillery barrage, so we shoot the enemy with the bigger guns (Devastator) then push forward and clear the way (Tactical) and then once the line is reached glorious close combat ensues (Assault).

 

Vows becoming our super-doctrine would be enough rules to represent our divergence from the codex in terms of army rules, if it worked like the previous iteration it would make the army very flexible in the army building part of the game (even if all the buffs are for mid board/assault) which would not be too different from what Deathwatch does with their ability to move doctrines and they arent exactly a codex adherent organization either.

Edited July 18, 2021 by redmapa

[Medjugorje]

 

 

 

I wonder how would the statline of "primaris neophyte" look like. If it only have w1 and cost higher than 13pts/model, it would fell in the category of "very uncompetitive", and waste the new-designed, fine-detailed model kits.

I’d guess 2 wounds, 4+ save

 

 

 

I think so too. GW can find a way that onlyneophytes which are close to be a full Marine will be in a Primaris Crusader squad or BT found another way to raise up Primaris Marines faster....

 

On the other hand the normal Neophytes for a Intercessor Crusadersquad are just belov 12 points.

 

 

I get why people may get peeved with a divergent chapter like us using the same rules that represent codex astartes doctrines but I think the progression of Devastator>Tactical>Assault is a great representation of Astartes warfare in general and not just "Codex Doctrine. Our Chapter's own combat doctrine follows that progression, we land small elements, clear a landing zone for a bigger mechanized assault which is supported by a creeping orbital/artillery barrage, so we shoot the enemy with the bigger guns (Devastator) then push forward and clear the way (Tactical) and then once the line is reach glorious close combat ensues (Assault).

 

Vows becoming our super-doctrine would be enough rules to represent our divergence from the codex in terms of army rules, if it worked like the previous iteration it would make the army very flexible in the army building part of the game (even if all the buffs are for mid board/assault) which would not too different from what Deathwatch does with their ability to move doctrines and they arent exactly a codex adherent organization either.

 

+1 

Edited July 18, 2021 by Medjugorje

[Eberious]

Acebaur/mods,

 

I was just thinking, once we know the release dates, we need some sort of painting comp/Vow for the lead up to release day to Honour the Chapter whatever we end getting. Just mentioning yourself Ace as you've done that kinda stuff before. Can't recall us having our own VOW type thing in a while(may of missed it though, I've been a bit in and out).

[Medjugorje]

Valrak said in his stream that (now i quote him): "everyone who like invul saves --> love BT,.... hmm *smiling  Invulve on tanks"

 

I think thats what we want. Invulves will help us really

[Sete]

They will for sure double down on faith and the Emperor Protects type of thing. So yeah invul saves makes sense.

Just hope they remember choppyness rules.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Invuls and MW FNP on my three vindicator laser Destroyers would be fun.

[redmapa]

So what does that mean? Uphold the Honor returns almost untouched and gives everyone a 6++? That'd be really cool, not sure how useful it actually ends up being but its something for mechanized lists and Dreadnoughts.

[Medjugorje]

So what does that mean? Uphold the Honor returns almost untouched and gives everyone a 6++? That'd be really cool, not sure how useful it actually ends up being but its something for mechanized lists and Dreadnoughts.

would be bad. how often do we need a 6++ with a 3+ and then how often do we roll the 6.

This would be very bad. It was better in 3rd to 5th edition when there were lots of ap2 and ap3 and power weapons. But still I never played that vow.

So it must be a 5++ to think about and I think even 4++ on all vehicles would not be broken.

 

5++ on each vehicle and Obsec on each other unit would be nice.

Edited July 18, 2021 by Medjugorje

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

5++ would be excellent, especially for dreads.

[Marshal Laeroth]

The curse of knowledge. *sigh* Soon, brothers. Very soon (I hope). I will say, but will not elaborate further on...be prepared to adapt. Edited July 19, 2021 by Marshal Laeroth

[Blindhamster]

Wonder vows might be a bit like doctrines, and you get a set of them, you choose one per turn but can’t go back to one already used if you change it maybe.

 

That might be cool

[Sword Brother Adelard]

The curse of knowledge. *sigh* Soon, brothers. Very soon (I hope). I will say, but will not elaborate further on...be prepared to adapt.

I'm prepared, but do you think we will be adapting willingly or begrudgingly? We don't need more than that.

[SirJyo]

I'm hoping we aren't stepping on iron hand's toes with too many invuln saves.

 

I wish we got back the old riteous zeal, but I know deep down they wouldn't do anything that creative/risky in 9th

[Ishagu]

 

The curse of knowledge. *sigh* Soon, brothers. Very soon (I hope). I will say, but will not elaborate further on...be prepared to adapt.

I'm prepared, but do you think we will be adapting willingly or begrudgingly? We don't need more than that.

I have a feeling you guys will be in for a treat, and they might expand the rules and traits of the army in unexpected ways.

 

That's the best thing they can possible do. BT haven't had much attention since their ancient codex. The first Marines I ever painted were Black Templars. I have a lot of affection for this chapter, and I believe a Crusading force can be shown in more ways than just extra attacks and strength.

 

Throw some religion based rules in there, manipulation of morale, acts of faith, etc. It could be great.

[Medjugorje]

Wonder vows might be a bit like doctrines, and you get a set of them, you choose one per turn but can’t go back to one already used if you change it maybe.

 

That might be cool

 

never. 

 

I wont say thats a bad mechanic but you have to know that this is going against the lore. A vow is a vow and cant be broken. 

 

 

 

It will be like 3rd edition (simply choose one before the game) or like in 4th edition

 

Emperors champion  (mandatory selection if army over 850points) 90 points + 

 

50 points - accept any challenge, no matter the odds ( something which helps to hit in melee)

35 points - suffer not the unclean to live ( something which helps to wound in melee)

20 points - abhor the witch, destroy the witch ( something against psykers)

20 points - uphold the honor of the emperor ( something like Obsec for all OR Inv for all OR .... )

 

 

I'm hoping we aren't stepping on iron hand's toes with too many invuln saves.

 

I wish we got back the old riteous zeal, but I know deep down they wouldn't do anything that creative/risky in 9th

 

 

Devot push is close to that. Maybe its getting a USR but only if the enemy is withing 6"

Edited July 19, 2021 by Medjugorje

[Sword Brother Adelard]

 

 

The curse of knowledge. *sigh* Soon, brothers. Very soon (I hope). I will say, but will not elaborate further on...be prepared to adapt.

I'm prepared, but do you think we will be adapting willingly or begrudgingly? We don't need more than that.

I have a feeling you guys will be in for a treat, and they might expand the rules and traits of the army in unexpected ways.

 

That's the best thing they can possible do. BT haven't had much attention since their ancient codex. The first Marines I ever painted were Black Templars. I have a lot of affection for this chapter, and I believe a Crusading force can be shown in more ways than just extra attacks and strength.

 

Throw some religion based rules in there, manipulation of morale, acts of faith, etc. It could be great.

We've been hurt so many times before...

[Sete]

The curse of knowledge. *sigh* Soon, brothers. Very soon (I hope). I will say, but will not elaborate further on...be prepared to adapt.

I have heard that we wont be at DA level. Dont think our codex will be over the top but unfortunately I dont have the full knowledge of the matter.

 

Laeroths words make me curious, adapt how?

Some rules are bound to change especially strats that overlap with vows I reckon.

 

Time will tell, anyway, I think we will handle whatever comes well. Especially with the renewed vigor of a new models.

Edited July 19, 2021 by Sete