Gladiator Lancers: Any Good?

[Karack Blackstone]

Hello all, quick note on the question.

 

My previously huge Apoc list for my Logan Grimnar GC is down from 30K points to 18K points.

 

To that end, I plan to get and use up to 9 Gladiator Lancers.

 

Has anyone tried them? Is the Repulsor Executioner just better?

 

Or is the 180 point Gladiator Lancer worth it still, even at S 10 rather than S 12 for the otherwise same gun stat line?

 

Advice and thoughts requested, please.

Where in the hell is that extra text coming from?

Edited July 12, 2021 by Karack Blackstone

[Karhedron]

I am afraid not. The Gladiators are very overpriced and horribly fragile and the Lancer is arguably the weakest of the lot with just a sing;e Heavy 2 main gun. A single multimelta has a higher damage output at close range and the extra point of AP will generally compensate for the slightly lower strength.

 

Whatever role you are looking to fill in your army, you will find something better than the Lancer or Repulsor Executioner for the job. Attack Bikes with Multmeltas, Eradicators, Long Fangs with Multimeltas in a Drop Pod.

 

Sorry to be such a downer as the models look very cool but the Lancer and Executioner are widely regarded as two of the worst units in the Marine codex. I would not field either and certainly not multiples.

[Karack Blackstone]

Well, that's not good.

 

I routinely play on an eight foot by eight foot table setup, two four by eights laid out on stands.

 

So, I need a 72" gun, and that's either 9 Gladiator Lancers how five Repulsor Executioners and some more Primaris of some sort to stick into 'em, since there's points left over.

[SvenIronhand]

Contrary to what everyone is suggesting, I'd suggest at least one tank in your army. A mix of VEHICLE and INFANTRY gives your opponent pause when he's choosing secondaries. They might not be CORE, but a Repulsor can still put out a withering amount of anti-infantry firepower. I just got back from a game in which mine blasted the better part of a Assault Intercessor squad off the board. And this was without the Storm Bolters.

As for the Lancer, use it in its battlefield role. Snipe tanks.

A lot of people online like to mathhammer stuff out and tout their results as the ultimate conclusion, but you can't reduce gameplay to just numbers no matter how hard you try.

Edited July 13, 2021 by SvenIronhand

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I don't really have any experience with games of that size (the biggest I've played was like 10k game on 6x8 and that was in 6th edition). In general I wouldn't recommend them but the scale of what your playing makes my advice pretty useless because its based on 2000 point games with 9th's mission structure. So Karack Blackstone I have a couple of questions for you.

 

1) Are you using the chapter approved missions, or using some old ones, or even a version of apocalypse?

 

2)  Are you playing against titans?

[Karack Blackstone]

1 - Usually its old Annihilation. I hate it, however this never seems to change.

 

2 - Not usually, or they are allied and chewing up lots of points and firepower, especially some of the enemy's anti-tank

 

---

 

So, my 18K list has six GH packs, 10 men in each, all in Rhinos, 4 BC packs, 16 total with WP attached, all in LRC's, going to have 6 Impulsors, 1 with Ragnar and HQ storm from Indomitus, 5 with ABR 6 man Intercessor packs, going to have 7 Repulsors with 3 Full Intercessor packs with BR's, 2 Assault Intercessor packs, 2 with 5 man Heavy Intercessors, 1 with ABR equivalent, 1 with BR equivalent. 2 Spartans with 10 WGTA, +2 RP's, one Njal, both in TDA, other with Logan, Arjac, and Ulric. Finally, 2 Stormwolves with 8 normal claw Wulfen packs, one Storm Eagle with 10 Wulfen, normal claws. No frag assault launchers.

 

Both 10 WG TDA have TH/SS. All GH's have Chainswords. I gave all GH 'acks PG's also, at least points wise. The GH and BC packs have CSwd / SS WGPL, BP/PF BCPL, BG, BP, PF GHPL's.

 

And then there's the rest of the force: 1 Fire Raptor, 1 Stormhawk, 1 Fellblade, 9 Gladiator Lancers planned.

 

And, again, this is on an 8 ft. by 8 ft. table, two 4 by 8 foot sides combined.

 

I'd say at 18K it's better to have the 9 targets on the table size, and being so cheap, lots of GL's, Gladiator Lancers, should help with reducing enemy anti tank firepower decently.

 

My major Tau/Nid/Necron foe plans to get a Manta, so I may truly need the 9 Gladiator Lancers.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I think a lot of why vehicles struggle in 9th is tied to mission structure. There is just so much pressure to move toward midfield that makes it difficult to support them, and with lots of good Melta weapons in the meta they just aren't durable.

 

I'm hesitant to recommend them, but I can see where most of their drawbacks in 9th just won't apply in game of this size. Both sides are going to be able to screen so well, and the range is necessary because of the sheer amount of models on the table. Its all theory hammer though, I don't know if I have the attention span to even attempt a game of this size. So my advice would be to go with rule of cool, and just get stuff you like, cause your playing a pretty unique game of Warhammer .

 

P.S. At some point you really should post some pictures because I want to see all this stuff on the table. Trust me we'll all be impressed.

[Ishagu]

One of the worst vehicles in the Marine codex. Avoid Edited July 14, 2021 by Ishagu

[Karack Blackstone]

One of the worst vehicles in the Marine codex. Avoid

Did you at least read the OP?

[Ishagu]

 

 

One of the worst vehicles in the Marine codex. Avoid

Did you at least read the OP?

I did. I can't recommend that anyone should get 9 of them.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

 

One of the worst vehicles in the Marine codex. Avoid

Did you at least read the OP?

 

 

 Your games are so unique that even if people read the 1st post they aren't going to have any similar experiences to draw on. All we have is 9th edition and tanks in general stink.

 

1) Unlike dreads they aren't core so can't benefit from a lot of great aura abilities like re-rolls from a captain. 

 

2) Melta is pretty oppressive, and several good armies have access to a lot of it. The point cost for them is low enough that they're efficient even when they're playing against lists without vehicles. 

 

3) game forces action to the midfield, which makes screening them hard. Also puts them in positions where they need to hold an objective and open themselves up to CC. This is awesome for dreads and brutal for tanks.

 

4) Secondary scoring punishes vehicle heavy builds. Vehicles 10 wounds and under give up less which helps a lot of dreads and doesn't benefit most tanks.  

 

I don't really think these 4 drawbacks apply to you. I'm still not comfortable suggesting them because while I think from a theory hammer perspective they would work for you I have no experience that is comparable. I've played in a few apocalypse games and I think the most we got up too was like 14k total (two teams of 7k). How long does a typical game last for you?

 

I really do want to see that many minis on an 8x8 table. I just don't think you'll find many people that will be comfortable giving you advice because your basically playing a different game than the rest of us. 

[beefeb]

While Im not sure about 9 of them, in the type of game the OP is looking at, the range is what makes them.  Yes multimeltas or other fast short range units are better, but on an 8foot table, thats a couple of turns away.  I would certainly consider putting down three lancers and two executioners.  They wont be optimal, but they will be thematic and fun and they will let you reach out and hit stuff at max range, which multimeltas wont.  They are gorgeous models too so hey, its win win.

[Karack Blackstone]

I wanted to reply here and thank you, beefeb, for the thoughts.

 

I plan to use 9 for target saturation and prevent easy and fast kills of my gun line.

 

I do realize that Repulsor Executioners are likely better overall. The issue I'm running into is that my list having 9 gets me three groups of three tanks to direct shots at targets, or with. If my friend gets his Manta, I may well need all 9 first turn to just fire and down it, then whatever lives after is going to try and clear his heavy anti tank Eldar/Tau/Necron firepower. He has armies for the last two and can likely borrow enough threat for Eldar to make it worthwhile.

 

I have 1,620 points set aside for 9 Gladiator Lancers. I figure max fire is best, however I haven't collected them at all yet. Are there thoughts on a few Repulsor Executioners to make them a bit tougher to kill?

[FabulousRex]

Given the the large nature of your games, I might recommend 9 Hunters instead. They are T8, cheaper by 70ish points, and against that Manta they will wreck it with d6+6 Dmg missiles that also reroll to hit. It's way worse against ground targets, but a hard counter to that freaking Manta!

 

Another interesting approach might be 9 Vindicator Laser Destroyers. Slightly cheaper, more focused on long range firepower, but slower.

[Lord Blackwood]

Given the the large nature of your games, I might recommend 9 Hunters instead. They are T8, cheaper by 70ish points, and against that Manta they will wreck it with d6+6 Dmg missiles that also reroll to hit. It's way worse against ground targets, but a hard counter to that freaking Manta!

 

Another interesting approach might be 9 Vindicator Laser Destroyers. Slightly cheaper, more focused on long range firepower, but slower.

These are good points for the hunters and the vindicator laser destroyers. 

 

I also dont think the gladiators even at range are worth the points even in a points redundant situation. 

[FabulousRex]

 

 

Given the the large nature of your games, I might recommend 9 Hunters instead. They are T8, cheaper by 70ish points, and against that Manta they will wreck it with d6+6 Dmg missiles that also reroll to hit. It's way worse against ground targets, but a hard counter to that freaking Manta!

 

Another interesting approach might be 9 Vindicator Laser Destroyers. Slightly cheaper, more focused on long range firepower, but slower.

These are good points for the hunters and the vindicator laser destroyers.

 

I also dont think the gladiators even at range are worth the points even in a points redundant situation.

Yeah, Gladiators are simply overpriced. GW seems to be over costing tanks on the 1st release, then fixing it in a Chapter Approved. Maybe wait until then?

[Kallas]

Yeah, Gladiators are simply overpriced. GW seems to be over costing tanks on the 1st release, then fixing it in a Chapter Approved. Maybe wait until then?

 

Hell, Gladiators have already received a points drop, and they're still too expensive. Vehicles (especially basic ones with few rules like Marine ones) are just generally in a bad place.

9th continued the end-of-8th trend of ramping up anti-vehicle/monster capabilities (eg, d3+3 Dark Lances) while ignoring the problems with vehicles for the most part.

[FabulousRex]

I still miss Tank Shock. When my Rhino charges at a lone Guardsman, he should not be able to laugh it off. Vehicle Melee needs a rework, and firing into melee is just a bandaid. Vehicles should be able to fall back from Infantry only and still shoot.

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

I actually have been thinking that (non walker) vehicle charges should work more like blast weapons and flamers combined. On charge Auto hit d3 or d6 depending on vehicle size, the bigger the squad the bigger the minimum like a blast weapon. Keep the ap light like 0-(-1) (perhaps some armies like Dark Eldar and orks would get a smidge more) and vary strength with size. Then when stuck in one auto hit because you don't have the run up of a charge. Would make their initial impact good (like a car crash) but would keep it balanced as ther wouldn't be melee power houses. I do like the shoot on combat rules and I think that could stay along with it.

[TheNewman]

Well, that's not good.

 

I routinely play on an eight foot by eight foot table setup, two four by eights laid out on stands.

 

So, I need a 72" gun, and that's either 9 Gladiator Lancers how five Repulsor Executioners and some more Primaris of some sort to stick into 'em, since there's points left over.

An 8 foot square table completely changes the calculus of what's a good unit and what isn't, but even having said that I'm not sure the accepted wisdom on mid-board focus and long range guns actually holds water.

 

I've had more than one game where something like a Wyvern or a Castigator has been a problem because I couldn't leave it alone to tear up my infantry but I also didn't have anything that could get close enough to return fire without being destroyed the next turn.

 

Obviously designing an entire strategy around such guns is a mistake, but I'm starting to think that ignoring them altogether is also a mistake.