Updating Fists for 9th Ed

[DantesRevenge]

Hi all,

 

Thought I'd start a topic to see what people would like to see if we ever get an update for Firsts for 9th edition?

 

I think the Fists chapter tactic is really strong but I mostly find myself relying on the very good Codex Space Marines for strats, warlord traits and psychic powers rather than using any Imperial Fist specific ones. So if we were to get an updated supplement what would you want to see. Some rough ideas from me would be:

 

Legacy of Dorn

 

i think this is a really weak super doctrine at the moment. I would like to see this reworked so maybe bolter weapons get +1 to wound in tactical doctrine, a bit like the Salamander Melta and Flamer.

 

They could even keep the bit for heavy or maybe make the additional damage into a strat.

 

Psychic powers

Fist of Dawn - WCV 7, a ghostly apparition of a giant fist appears smashing through the enemy, and scattering them. If successfully manifested, pick a unit within 18" of the psyker that is visible, that unit suffers D3 mortal wounds and cannot fire overwatch and fights last until the the next psychic phase.

 

Shield of Dorn - WC 6 (aura), The psyker manifests a giant pyschic shield around him that renders even the most potent weapons useless. If successfully manifested then unit within 6" benefit from this ability. Those units count as being in heavy cover, in addition strength 8 or above weapons reduce their ap by an additional -1 (to a minimum of 0) when targeting the unit. 

 

Guiding focus - WC 7, the pysker uses his ability to guide the attacks of the unit into the weakest part of the enemy, If successfully manifested then pick a friendly imperial fist unit within 12" of the pysker. That unit can add +1 to their hit rolls and a wound of 6 does a mortal wound in addition to the normal damage of the weapon.

 

Strats
Haven't thought about this loads but I'd reduce tank hunters down to 1cp.

 

Possibly move the +1 damage current legacy of Dorn to a 1cp strat and be able to use against monsters as well?

 

Siege masters -  Imperial fists are known to be siege masters and the First company in particularly is know for it's deadly boarding actions and teleport strikes. Terminators can roll 3D6 and pick the highest if arriving from deep strike.

 

 

Warlord trait

 

Hand of Dorn  = +3 command points (flat)

 

 

 

As I said be really interested to see what other would have in mind. I've hopefully tried to make the above not too overpowered.

 

 

[Relentless]

I've always thought IF should get +1 toughness when in cover.  They should also get some kind of AP reducing mechanism, either a psychic power or strat, or in addition to being in cover.  IF should have powerful heavy weapons and bonuses to being in cover.

[DantesRevenge]

I quite like the idea of a psychic power that maybe gives +1 toughness and +1 save. I think I'd prefer not to have to be in cover thought to benefit from it as I think in 9th mobility and being able to move and seize objectives is a bit more preferable.

[NatBrannigan]

I'd want some strats to focus on holding objectives once they're taken. Extra toughness or armour, similar to the one we currently have giving extra attacks and save near an objective. I don't want a load of rules about being in a building, but something we can use on every table that shows Fists being the masters of defence.

 

I'd also like the disconnect between the super doctrine and chapter tactic to go away. Currently we like bolter weapons with lots of shots and big heavy weapons, not specialising in anything at the moment.

[DantesRevenge]

Agree about removing some of the building focus for Fists, the chapter tactic is probably sufficient offensively.

 

Would also like to see a small additional buff to the Fist of Terror wargear, not much point taking this over a regular power fist at the moment.

[XeonDragon]

I'd go with re-rolling 1s on bolter weapons +1 to hit and/or wound during tactical doctrine (but if only one, +1 to wound).

[DantesRevenge]

Not done the maths on it but do lean towards the +1 to wound, as I think with exploding 6s it already helps with the hits.

 

Could super charge this further with a warlord trait for given +1 ap on bolter weapons as an option.

[Swordsman]

Great!

 

Here is my tribute to the Legion.

 

Chapter tactic: I love it, just should ignore all types of cover instead of only light.

 

Legacy of Dorn

 

Total rework in a more dynamic and chapter specific interpretation:

 

In devastator doctrine: + 1 to wound to “heavy” bolt type weapon.

In tactical doctrine : + 1 to wound to “assault and rapid fire” bolt type weapon.

In assault doctrine: + 1 to wound to “pistol” bolt type weapon and chainsword (Dorn demands this)

 

Psychic powers

 

Dorn resolution: +1 T and sv to a unit (only infantry)

Shield of the emperor: obsec within 6”

Granitic will: 5++ vs mortal wounds

Land manipulation: -1 to wound to friendly unit if in light cover.

Stoneshard storm : roll a d6 for every model in a enemy unit (max 10 roll), mortal wounds on 5+

Might of Dorn: +1 To wound roll for infantry unit in the fight phase.

 

Stratagem

 

Some of the one we have are actually good but overpriced. The should be 1 CP (close range bolter fire, tank hunters, stubborn defense, the shield unwavering, etc..)

As new :

 

Total extermination 1CP: reroll to wound with bolt weapon vs non vehicle targets.

 

Set the weapons: 1CP: +1 to hit if stationary

 

Defensive fire 2CP: 5+ overwatch and up to three other unengaged units within 6″ of a charged unit can fire Overwatch at the charging unit.

 

Minefield : 2d3 mortal wound if a enemy units enters within 3” of an objective Held by an IF unit.

 

RELICS

 

Spartean, as now but 18” pistol 3

Eye of Hypnot: perfect as it is

Banner should also give +1 sv to units within 6”

Bones, +1 to manifest and reroll chapter specific psychic powers

 

NEW

The pretorian of Terra: Chiansword +3S, +4A, 2d. Vp-2 ignored any damage reduction.

 

Warlord traits

 

Agree for 3+CP for hand of Dorn.

Siege master: +1 to wound vs vehicle and monsters

[DantesRevenge]

Great!

 

Here is my tribute to the Legion.

 

Chapter tactic: I love it, just should ignore all types of cover instead of only light.

 

Legacy of Dorn

 

Total rework in a more dynamic and chapter specific interpretation:

 

In devastator doctrine: + 1 to wound to “heavy” bolt type weapon.

In tactical doctrine : + 1 to wound to “assault and rapid fire” bolt type weapon.

In assault doctrine: + 1 to wound to “pistol” bolt type weapon and chainsword (Dorn demands this)

 

Psychic powers

 

Dorn resolution: +1 T and sv to a unit (only infantry)

Shield of the emperor: obsec within 6”

Granitic will: 5++ vs mortal wounds

Land manipulation: -1 to wound to friendly unit if in light cover.

Stoneshard storm : roll a d6 for every model in a enemy unit (max 10 roll), mortal wounds on 5+

Might of Dorn: +1 To wound roll for infantry unit in the fight phase.

 

Stratagem

 

Some of the one we have are actually good but overpriced. The should be 1 CP (close range bolter fire, tank hunters, stubborn defense, the shield unwavering, etc..)

As new :

 

Total extermination 1CP: reroll to wound with bolt weapon vs non vehicle targets.

 

Set the weapons: 1CP: +1 to hit if stationary

 

Defensive fire 2CP: 5+ overwatch and up to three other unengaged units within 6″ of a charged unit can fire Overwatch at the charging unit.

 

Minefield : 2d3 mortal wound if a enemy units enters within 3” of an objective Held by an IF unit.

 

RELICS

 

Spartean, as now but 18” pistol 3

Eye of Hypnot: perfect as it is

Banner should also give +1 sv to units within 6”

Bones, +1 to manifest and reroll chapter specific psychic powers

 

NEW

The pretorian of Terra: Chiansword +3S, +4A, 2d. Vp-2 ignored any damage reduction.

 

Warlord traits

 

Agree for 3+CP for hand of Dorn.

Siege master: +1 to wound vs vehicle and monsters

Really like some of these ideas especially the buffs to the different phases, also reduces the need for a potential strat or trait to put a unit into a different doctrine as it feels like it flows through nicely. Also good idea for the banner buff, think it plays well to the seize objectives and hard to shift idea.

[ST.Lazarus]

I would like to see Imperial Fists get less limitations and be the premier marines to take and hold objectives:

 

A ability to make infantry objective secured and if they already are objective secured they count as two models.

 

All weapons of s6 or less should generate a extra hit on a 6 to hit.

 

If the super doctrine still is limited to the heavy phase it should have a secondary effect like the Iron hands (moving and shooting).

[DantesRevenge]

I would like to see Imperial Fists get less limitations and be the premier marines to take and hold objectives:

 

A ability to make infantry objective secured and if they already are objective secured they count as two models.

 

All weapons of s6 or less should generate a extra hit on a 6 to hit.

 

If the super doctrine still is limited to the heavy phase it should have a secondary effect like the Iron hands (moving and shooting).

The objective secured one could make a good warlord trait, basically an improved Rites of war, I think the Orks or maybe Grey Knights now have something like this.

[PraetorianVII]

I agree on the Chapter Tactic, love it and needs no change, the doctrine needs to go though, if we are to get a Devastator doctrine buff, we need to get most out of it for that first turn (and not depend on what our opponent brings to the table), another effect like Iron Hands have would be great.

 

I was thinking extra 6" range, +1 Strength and AP when firing bolt weapons. Heavy and Blast Weapons have extra 6" range and hits also reduce enemy unit movement, advance and charge distances by 2"

 

Stratagems

Tank Hunters (2CP)- +1 to Wound against vehicles, buildings and monsters. +1 Damage for Strength 7+ weapons too.

Legacy of Dorn (1CP)- Select a character, Core units within 9" benefit from 6" range, +1 Strength and AP on bolt weapons. Doesn't stack with Dev doctrine buff.

 

Relics

Banner of Staganda- ObSec & +1 to Banner effect. Select one IF Core or Character within 6" in Command Phase, -1 to AP on incoming attacks and in melee, gain an extra Attack for each successful armour save to a max of 3 per surviving model.

Praetorian's Burden- When a IF unit within 6" is chosen to benefit from an IF Strategic Ploy or Battle Tactic stratagem, another IF unit within 6" can benefit from the same stratagem too if eligible.

 

Geokinesis

Worldshaper Blessing WC7: Creates a 6" terrain bubble from the Librarian with the Light Cover, Heavy Cover, and Defensible traits. IF Units can always Hold Steady or Set to Defend in this terrain. IF Units that Hold Steady are always eligible to Overwatch (no matter of any enemy abilities). IF units that Set to Defend fight first. The terrain lasts till your next Psychic Phase.

-Quicksand Malediction WC6: Select an enemy unit within 18", cannot perform Actions/fails any current actions and must fight last. Does not affect FLY units.

 

Warlord Traits

Siege Master- affect Monsters, +1 Damage too.

Merge Indomitable and Stubborn Heroism

Hand of Dorn- d3 extra CPs. Legacy of Dorn stratagem used on this character costs 1CP less

Wise Defender: First turn only, can force opponent to spend double command points on a stratagem or lose CP's already spent and the stratagem doesn't work. 6" aura of something like the Salamanders Born Protectors effect.

 

Lastly, was thinking on changing Garadon's Siege Captain ability to put a unit into Devastator doctrine

[Charlo]

+1 to Wound on Bolter weapons is probably a little too strong. At that point they really start to be the be a one-stop solution. It could absolutely be a stratagem though, 1CP for 5 or fewer models, 2CP for anything else.

 

+1 to hit would be great and echoes the 30k Legion rules too.

 

I really like the idea of them having a +1 to hit for different types of bolt weapons depending on the doctrine active, but I think it feels better from a gameplay perspective to just roll it into Tactical.

[Swordsman]

+1 to Wound on Bolter weapons is probably a little too strong. At that point they really start to be the be a one-stop solution. It could absolutely be a stratagem though, 1CP for 5 or fewer models, 2CP for anything else.

 

+1 to hit would be great and echoes the 30k Legion rules too.

 

I really like the idea of them having a +1 to hit for different types of bolt weapons depending on the doctrine active, but I think it feels better from a gameplay perspective to just roll it into Tactical.

To hit bonus would be nice too.

About the +1 to wound, if you think at what the bolt weapons profiles are, a +1 to wound moving trough doctrines isn’t so strong.

 

The strongest bolt weapon we can “spam” is the Executor bolt rifle on heavy intercessors, S5, AP2,D2, 280 pts for 10 shots that (in my hypothesis) would benefit only on the devastator doctrine.

Other bolt weapons have weaker profile and lower AP. I don’t see the risk of a broken abuse.

 

The bolt weapons would be preferred by Fists for sure, and that’s is a good thing (Dorn would be glad).

 

Nevertheless, we will not receive any of this bonuses, GW will keep the tradition of giving us useless rules and extraordinary expensive stratagem.

[Angelus Nex]

I would like to see a good devestator super doctrine for inoerial fists and a good tactical super doctrine for crimson fists.

And a strategem (last wall order), that if you include IF, CF and BT detachments in one army, you dont loose their super benefits :-).

[Tokugawa]

Relic/Wlt which could switch a unit to dev doctrine per turn.

[DantesRevenge]

I agree that if we continue to have a super doctrine that only activates in the devastator doctrine it would be good to have a WLT that permits this or a relic. However I do like the shifting doctrine buffs suggested above or the flat +1 wound for bolters in tactical.

Another suggested strategem having played Admech would be the ability to maybe explode bolters on a 5+ instead of a 6. This could replace the 2cp additional exploding bolter strat we currently have. This would still be a flat 2cp to use regardless of unit size.

 

Interesting idea @Angelus Nex, be interesting to see the implementation but judging by how detachments have workedthus far in 9th I'd be surpirsed if GW went for this..

[Charlo]

Having both Devastator Doctrine and the "Super Doctrine" individually nerfed is what killed IF.

 

That and the fact that their rules want you to be in Tactical and Devastator, simultaneously, on different weapons...

[Angelus Nex]

Maybe fists should loose the ignore cover rule, and get a relic that does this.

Instead of ignore cover, get the rule that core infantry get +1 save when within 3" an objective in close combat. And also able to shoot bolt weapons in close combat. And remove the 2 strategems that do this.

It isn't that overpowered, and it gives fists a boost in close combat and in the last 2 turns.

Also, to me, it feels more like their defensive stoic nature, and defending stuff zealously.

[XeonDragon]

I think the +1 to wound cycling through the doctrines would be fine. Blood Angels get +1 to wound during the assault phase (3 phases for them), if they charged, were charged or heroically intervened. So it is limited to 3 turns, on melee weapons and stacks with the extra attacks BA get during the assault phase.

 

So with that as a comparator, I can see +1 to wound being available throughout the game but being limited to specific types of weapons in specific phases as being both viable and not OP. With BA, basically everything is going to be getting +1 to wound in melee in turns 3, 4 and 5. With a IF cyclical +1 to wounds on bolter weapons, only a few would get it in turn 1, a fair few in turns 2 and 3 and then even less in turns 4 and 5 for pistols (which, let's face it, are weak weapons and means you are in or about to be in melee, not something IF excel at).

 

So I think the +1 to wound and exploding 6s with bolter weapons with the +1 to wound applying to heavy bolt weapons when the devastator doctrine is active, rapid fire and assault when tactical doctrine is active and so forth would be OK and not OP. I can't see it allowing you to (for example) simply take heavy bolters over some melta or plasma to deal with monsters or T7/8 vehicles. 

 

 

+1 to Wound on Bolter weapons is probably a little too strong. At that point they really start to be the be a one-stop solution. It could absolutely be a stratagem though, 1CP for 5 or fewer models, 2CP for anything else.

+1 to hit would be great and echoes the 30k Legion rules too.

I really like the idea of them having a +1 to hit for different types of bolt weapons depending on the doctrine active, but I think it feels better from a gameplay perspective to just roll it into Tactical.

To hit bonus would be nice too.
About the +1 to wound, if you think at what the bolt weapons profiles are, a +1 to wound moving trough doctrines isn’t so strong.

The strongest bolt weapon we can “spam” is the Executor bolt rifle on heavy intercessors, S5, AP2,D2, 280 pts for 10 shots that (in my hypothesis) would benefit only on the devastator doctrine.
Other bolt weapons have weaker profile and lower AP. I don’t see the risk of a broken abuse.

The bolt weapons would be preferred by Fists for sure, and that’s is a good thing (Dorn would be glad).

Nevertheless, we will not receive any of this bonuses, GW will keep the tradition of giving us useless rules and extraordinary expensive stratagem.

 

[Angelus Nex]

I think +1 to wound on bolt weapons is too strong. 10 intercessors with assault bolt rifles, rerolling 1s and using the Firefox twice strat woud do Just over 14 wounds against T7/3+ save target. That feels like overkill for an anti infantry weapon.

 

Edit: Not to mention those 3 x 6 bolter inceptors deep striking turn 2 and wounding <T4 on 2+ with -2 ap.

 

I am all for it that fists should be stronger, but the +1 to wound is IMHO to simplistic, i know BA get it in CC, but shooting from range, without getting hit back in the same fase, is a wat different equation.

Edited September 16, 2021 by Angelus Nex

[XeonDragon]

Good points. I feel 9th is very much (ad mech withstanding) are game that pushes most armies to melee. I can see merit in at least one faction being really good at shooting. Maybe the +1 to wound could be a stratagem, but with a special rule so that it can be used once per turn on any unit, and once again on a unit based on the active tactical doctrine, so in turn 1 those intercessors with assault bolters can pop it off, and so can some devastators with heavy bolters. In turn 2, the intercessors with assault bolters can do it again, and the bolter inceptors can as well (but not the stalker bolt rile intercessors sitting on the home objective).

 

2CP per turn, plus it pushes the player towards non-MSUs, which in turn exposes them to blast... could be a way to beef up IF without going totally bonkers?

[DantesRevenge]

It would be interesting to see how +1 to wound on bolters actually plays out. The thing with the Blood Angels +1 is that they are basically supposed to tear anything they charge to shreds and not be abl o attack back although there are probably a few too many melee debuffs for that to hold true.

 

A simple mitigation might be to stop +1 to wound stacking with any other strat. I'd love to see how it played out, the only strat I can see unbalancing it is the shoot twice that intercessors have.

[Charlo]

Interestingly enough, I think a few stratagems that represent the power of the Phalanx would be a nice addition. Or try to focus on the HH identity of the fists a little bit; defensive close combat.

 

A single unit teleportation would be a unique strat. Or you could take some notes from the HH and apply some to hit debuffs upon deep strike.

 

A stratagem around shields could be nice too, maybe similar to the Dark Angels strat.