Intellectual property guidelines updated

[Gederas]

 

I think GW made a mistake with the timing. If they'd done this after Warhammer+ had launched and say gone well then it would've softened the blow considerably. Doing it preemptively feels a bit cold

This something that, as a multinational and multi-million pound corporation, GW would never do. Look at things from a business perspective: With the launch of Warhammer+ and the content it will host, fan content creators stopped being fans. And became competitors. Competitors who, on the individual level and using TTS as an example, rake in 180K per year by blatantly infringing on GW's IP. There is no reason GW would allow any of that to continue.  And despite what some folk think, GW's approach wasn't that ham-fisted.  They went to fan content creators and said "Hey, we like what your doing with our IP.  We'd love to have you come in house and make it an official product.  Unfortunately, if you refuse, we are aware of what you're doing and we'll have to enforce our IP rights." Ham-fisted, in my opinion, would've been to announce Warhammer+ and then immediately send out the C&D notices to everyone.

No, it's GW going "Join us or die". Shall we point to the fan animators who declined, demonetized their videos and Patreon AND WERE STILL FORCED TO DELETE THEIR CONTENT?

 

Alienating the fanbase is a way to lose money. Look at what happened with Star Wars. Thanks to snide, rude and downright cruel comments made by some of the higher-ups in LucasFilm after the Disney acquisition, the sequel trilogy proceeded to tank.

 

Games Workshop has a much smaller base than Star Wars, so doing something like that would ruin their company.

 

GW, as a company and legal entity, needs to realize: Their company can cease to exist, TOMORROW, and the setting will continue. The fans will continue it, because we don't need them. They need us.

 

This is my last comment on the matter. Don't @ me

[Joe]

It does seem like your last comment started with a fallacy; generally speaking, for something to tank in the theatre realm it has to have made less than the budget it started with - the Star Wars movies very definitely did not tank. They might not have been the most well-received movies critically speaking, but they certainly performed well financially. And that's all that really matters at the end of the day.

 

You're right that Games Workshop don't need fans like us - they simply need customers that're willing to pay up regardless of any controversies that may arise. And they already have that. It's been pretty obvious if you've followed the companies practices over the last twenty years that they've moved away from the older communities because they are far too volatile to be considered reliable customers.

[Raktra]

 

 

 

 

I think GW made a mistake with the timing. If they'd done this after Warhammer+ had launched and say gone well then it would've softened the blow considerably. Doing it preemptively feels a bit cold

This something that, as a multinational and multi-million pound corporation, GW would never do. Look at things from a business perspective: With the launch of Warhammer+ and the content it will host, fan content creators stopped being fans. And became competitors. Competitors who, on the individual level and using TTS as an example, rake in 180K per year by blatantly infringing on GW's IP. There is no reason GW would allow any of that to continue. And despite what some folk think, GW's approach wasn't that ham-fisted. They went to fan content creators and said "Hey, we like what your doing with our IP. We'd love to have you come in house and make it an official product. Unfortunately, if you refuse, we are aware of what you're doing and we'll have to enforce our IP rights." Ham-fisted, in my opinion, would've been to announce Warhammer+ and then immediately send out the C&D notices to everyone.

No, it's GW going "Join us or die". Shall we point to the fan animators who declined, demonetized their videos and Patreon AND WERE STILL FORCED TO DELETE THEIR CONTENT?

 

Alienating the fanbase is a way to lose money. Look at what happened with Star Wars. Thanks to snide, rude and downright cruel comments made by some of the higher-ups in LucasFilm after the Disney acquisition, the sequel trilogy proceeded to tank.

 

Games Workshop has a much smaller base than Star Wars, so doing something like that would ruin their company.

 

GW, as a company and legal entity, needs to realize: Their company can cease to exist, TOMORROW, and the setting will continue. The fans will continue it, because we don't need them. They need us.

 

This is my last comment on the matter. Don't @ me

I’ll @ you to quote Star Wars and say “everything you just said was wrong”. Especially saying the sequel series tanked when they’re the highest earners of the franchise. I don’t even like those movies and I’m not wailing.

 

If you can name content creators who refused and were attacked then maybe I’ll believe you. But bear in mind, having already received a fortune from the stolen IP *is still a legal issue*.

[Petitioner's City]

@gederas, the sequel trilogy didn't tank. It made over 4.4 BILLION dollars at the box office - on a combined budget of 837 million dollars! It didn't tank at all, but rather succeeded in a way that confirmed Disney's decision to buy Lucasfilm.

 

GW won't stop existing tomorrow, there isn't a magic army of fans ready to stick it to 'the man', and this feeling will go away as soon as the next fancy release comes along which blows a given *consumer's* mind.

 

And even if gw did ever go bust - a very unlikely situation at present - whoever buys it in a bankruptcy will have the same control over the IP, and likely far less charity towards fan creators.

 

Also "No, it's GW going "Join us or die". Shall we point to the fan animators who declined, demonetized their videos and Patreon AND WERE STILL FORCED TO DELETE THEIR CONTENT?" - who are these people forced to delete their content? Like actually, who are they?

 

If we think of major content providers:

 

No the problem is that both a large swath of the community, and even Alfabusa to an extent, are being dishonest. I have yet to see anybody show a incident after this "change" to GW's IP policy (this has always been legally within GW's power and their statement has 0 impact on that) where someone has been forced to take their work down either due to threat or DMCA by GW.

 

Syama Pederson took a job with GW and agreed to move Astartes from Youtube to Warhammer Community.

 

Richard Boylan took a job with GW and is working on Angels of Death (I assume based on his channel post looking for animators). Helsreach is still up on his Youtube probably because GW legally can't host it on WarCom (since a lot of the early assets were ripped from various 40k games which, while GW owns the conceptual rights, they don't own the rights to the actual 3D assets and it was made in SFM).

 

SODAZ was offered a job by GW and agreed to remove his videos pending a future announcement on WarCom. Then people harassed him so badly that it made him decide not to take the deal and turn away from 40k completely.

 

Tyler Portoghese, who made the animation for The Last Church, took down his animation willingly after GW contacted him with a job offer for a future project and he even says that it's possible that his original animation might find its way onto WarCom eventually.

 

AbsolutelyNothing was offered a job with GW, he turned it down. His videos are all still up on his channel. What changed is that Youtube demonetized his videos and Patreon pulled his account because both were profiting off of his 40k content. He has even stated that he will continue to make content independently because he wants to and he's a college student with free time.

 

Alfabusa is currently collecting 18k a month via his Patreon. That's not fan work at that point, it's a job. He has also outright refused to even try contacting GW about an agreement. The "purity of the content" seemingly has much less to do with this than the money involved.

See this on dakka at: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/210/800020.page#11187524

[Joe]

 

2+Tough chucked this up earlier today. Most creators are generally being level-headed about this entire affair.

Edited July 31, 2021 by Joe

[BluegrassGamer]

 

No, it's GW going "Join us or die". Shall we point to the fan animators who declined, demonetized their videos and Patreon AND WERE STILL FORCED TO DELETE THEIR CONTENT?

 

Alienating the fanbase is a way to lose money. Look at what happened with Star Wars. Thanks to snide, rude and downright cruel comments made by some of the higher-ups in LucasFilm after the Disney acquisition, the sequel trilogy proceeded to tank.

 

Games Workshop has a much smaller base than Star Wars, so doing something like that would ruin their company.

 

GW, as a company and legal entity, needs to realize: Their company can cease to exist, TOMORROW, and the setting will continue. The fans will continue it, because we don't need them. They need us.

 

This is my last comment on the matter. Don't @ me

 

Just two quick things: 

 

1.) As I've said previously, and as this post shows, the fan base is only reacting this way due to the emotional attachment - or emotional investment? -  they have to some of the established fan content creators. Even as folk rush to defend the fan content creators, they never once deny that the fan contact creators were infringing on GW's IP.  They just keep saying that while GW has a right to defend its IP, that it shouldn't.

 

2.) I'm endlessly amused by the amount of people who keep saying that GW will lose fans over this.  And sure, they might lose some fans.  Lemme just paraphrase 40K lore for a moment: "But the [customer base] is large. And [the dissatisfied fans] will not be missed." There are fans out there who don't care about the IP issue, fans that don't think GW did anything wrong with protecting their IP, and there are fans who don't have accounts on B&C, Dakka, and other forums.  And those fans are probably going to continue spending money at GW stores and subscribing to GW services.  The moment a fan becomes dissatisfied with GW and swears off - for however long - buying products and subscriptions that GW offers? Is the moment that GW stops caring about that fan.  Because that fan stopped being a customer. And there are other fans out there that are still buying GW's products and services. 

 

 

I’ll @ you to quote Star Wars and say “everything you just said was wrong”. Especially saying the sequel series tanked when they’re the highest earners of the franchise. I don’t even like those movies and I’m not wailing.

 

If you can name content creators who refused and were attacked then maybe I’ll believe you. But bear in mind, having already received a fortune from the stolen IP *is still a legal issue*.

 

I think they're referring to AbsolutelyNothing. If I am remembering right, AbsolutelyNothing had a contact person inside of GW and they were in communication.  AbsolutelyNothing had been approached about working for Warhammer+.  AbsolutelyNothing declined the offer of working with GW and then asked if he could continue making 40K fan animations if AbsolutelyNothing demonetized his YouTube channel and his Patreon.  Apparently, their contact at GW gave them the thumbs up.

 

...At which point either 1) the supervisor of AbsolutelyNothing's GW contact or 2) the GW legal department became aware of the issue and said "No, they can't.  It's copyright infringement."

[Raktra]

That relies on AN being honest about the situation, because it does contradict what’s happened with a few others who’ve detailed dealings. But I will admit that until now I didn’t know about them, so I can pass real comment and could be waaay off base.

[Redcomet]

 

 

 

 

I think GW made a mistake with the timing. If they'd done this after Warhammer+ had launched and say gone well then it would've softened the blow considerably. Doing it preemptively feels a bit cold

This something that, as a multinational and multi-million pound corporation, GW would never do. Look at things from a business perspective: With the launch of Warhammer+ and the content it will host, fan content creators stopped being fans. And became competitors. Competitors who, on the individual level and using TTS as an example, rake in 180K per year by blatantly infringing on GW's IP. There is no reason GW would allow any of that to continue. And despite what some folk think, GW's approach wasn't that ham-fisted. They went to fan content creators and said "Hey, we like what your doing with our IP. We'd love to have you come in house and make it an official product. Unfortunately, if you refuse, we are aware of what you're doing and we'll have to enforce our IP rights." Ham-fisted, in my opinion, would've been to announce Warhammer+ and then immediately send out the C&D notices to everyone.

No, it's GW going "Join us or die". Shall we point to the fan animators who declined, demonetized their videos and Patreon AND WERE STILL FORCED TO DELETE THEIR CONTENT?

 

Alienating the fanbase is a way to lose money. Look at what happened with Star Wars. Thanks to snide, rude and downright cruel comments made by some of the higher-ups in LucasFilm after the Disney acquisition, the sequel trilogy proceeded to tank.

 

Games Workshop has a much smaller base than Star Wars, so doing something like that would ruin their company.

 

GW, as a company and legal entity, needs to realize: Their company can cease to exist, TOMORROW, and the setting will continue. The fans will continue it, because we don't need them. They need us.

 

This is my last comment on the matter. Don't @ me

Tank? You have a strange benchmark for tank. And to think that whatever social media comments made, had much of an impact. Twitter is a rather small echo chamber for a few very active people.

[excelite]

 

2+Tough chucked this up earlier today. Most creators are generally being level-headed about this entire affair.

Thanks for posting this!

 

finally a creator that asked instead of making stuff up in their head…

[Matcap86]

 

2+Tough chucked this up earlier today. Most creators are generally being level-headed about this entire affair.

Yeah it does feel a lot of the momentum is from the usual "GW bad" reflex that prevails in parts of the internet based parts of the community. It's starting to become an almost seasonal thing nowadays. GW does something every few months some people take umbrage with and it gets immediately whipped up into "worst company ever" territory.

 

The amount of eye-rolling I've done due to the hyperbole of people talking about being 'slapped in the face' by GW (due to not being able to buy the toys they wanted) or that GW hates it's customers (because they didn't immediately create that person's wishlist in the next week) is giving me headaches.

 

Is GW perfect? Not by a long shot. Is this the next overblown flare up of people who are baffelingly apparently hating on the hobby and the company that creates it, but are also investing an inordinate amount of time negatively engaging with it? I think it is.

Edited July 31, 2021 by matcap86

[Doghouse]

To be fair though 2+ Tough was never going to be affected anyway because it's not a fan animation channel. That guy having a go at him for not standing up for the perceived threat of GW Legal on other types of creators is extremely uncalled for though because he's not involved and is mostly a lore channel if I remember right. You can't expect people to use their self established platforms to soap box on your behalf so that is unfair for that guy to do that to him and sounds more like an existing grudge being voiced.

 

The issue to me for those that are upset seems to lay with the only making fan animations/films under license which is what has lead to TTS rethinking their direction. Like I said before any channel with a patreon was on thin ice as it was because regardless of intent they were profiting off GW IP which regardless if actually legally/morally right or wrong GW is known historically to take legal action over.

 

This situation has further been blown up by the fact that GW was never seen to try to take down creators until Warhammer+ appeared so naturally people are putting two and two together.

 

I did try looking on wayback machine to see if I could find the old IP guidelines to compare the two but it doesn't seem to be saved on there which is a shame because it might have been interesting.

 

In all fairness GW has done some extremely shady stuff in the past and fully earnt their reputation with trigger happy cease and desist orders which when combined with the shock announcement that TTS has decided to stand down has thrown more fuel on the fire.

 

I personally think that it's not a clear cut case where either side are the stand out villain in the story and think truthfully that somewhere in the middle where both sides meet the waters have become muddied.

[NovemberIX]

Just two quick things: 

 

1.) As I've said previously, and as this post shows, the fan base is only reacting this way due to the emotional attachment - or emotional investment? -  they have to some of the established fan content creators. Even as folk rush to defend the fan content creators, they never once deny that the fan contact creators were infringing on GW's IP.  They just keep saying that while GW has a right to defend its IP, that it shouldn't.

 

2.) I'm endlessly amused by the amount of people who keep saying that GW will lose fans over this.  And sure, they might lose some fans.  Lemme just paraphrase 40K lore for a moment: "But the [customer base] is large. And [the dissatisfied fans] will not be missed." There are fans out there who don't care about the IP issue, fans that don't think GW did anything wrong with protecting their IP, and there are fans who don't have accounts on B&C, Dakka, and other forums.  And those fans are probably going to continue spending money at GW stores and subscribing to GW services.  The moment a fan becomes dissatisfied with GW and swears off - for however long - buying products and subscriptions that GW offers? Is the moment that GW stops caring about that fan.  Because that fan stopped being a customer. And there are other fans out there that are still buying GW's products and services.

RE: point 1) I suppose you missed the part in the earlier in the thread when it was stated fanworks/follow-on content are covered under fair use (17 U.S.C. § 107) and that Parody is protected speech. Fans have the right to create follow-on content, and pursuant to being transformative work, can be commercialized. It was earlier stated GW is making an excessive land grab with these new guidelines, and that it's having a chilling effect on content creators since not everyone wants to fight a DMCA takedown even if it is in violation of Lenz v. Universal Music Corp., 801 F.3d 1126 (9th Cir. 2015). GW has rights to it's IP, just not to the totality they claim to.

 

Point 2) I said this in the price increase thread, go look at Harley-Davidson, look at how a company that was once on top, squandered their market lead with thinking like that. The most successful business owners I know treat everyone like a potential client, especially the clients that no longer use your services for one reason or another. Word of mouth can bring you success or utterly damn you, and GW is a niche inside a niche, so bad client retention is like urinating in their own well.

 

GW has a choice in how they handle and license their IP (to an extent), but like Wizards of the Coast, and Star Trek, their best bet would have been to a create a safe harbour that recognizes fanworks and their contributions.

[BluegrassGamer]

 

RE: point 1) I suppose you missed the part in the earlier in the thread when it was stated fanworks/follow-on content are covered under fair use (17 U.S.C. § 107) and that Parody is protected speech. Fans have the right to create follow-on content, and pursuant to being transformative work, can be commercialized. It was earlier stated GW is making an excessive land grab with these new guidelines, and that it's having a chilling effect on content creators since not everyone wants to fight a DMCA takedown even if it is in violation of Lenz v. Universal Music Corp., 801 F.3d 1126 (9th Cir. 2015). GW has rights to it's IP, just not to the totality they claim to.

 

Point 2) I said this in the price increase thread, go look at Harley-Davidson, look at how a company that was once on top, squandered their market lead with thinking like that. The most successful business owners I know treat everyone like a potential client, especially the clients that no longer use your services for one reason or another. Word of mouth can bring you success or utterly damn you, and GW is a niche inside a niche, so bad client retention is like urinating in their own well.

 

GW has a choice in how they handle and license their IP (to an extent), but like Wizards of the Coast, and Star Trek, their best bet would have been to a create a safe harbour that recognizes fanworks and their contributions.

 

To the first part: And it looks like you missed the part where it was said that GW is a multinational, multi-million pound company.  And, as such, has to consider the various IP and trademark protection laws across all the countries/jurisdiction they do work in.  In this thread, people have already noted that the US concept of "fair use" and the UK concept of "fair dealings" are similar yet different.  It's also been stated in this thread that Germany's IP law is somewhat more strict than the laws in either the US or the UK.  And if you think a multinational, multi-million pound corporation won't shop around for a court or jurisdiction that's favorable to them... You're mistaken.  

 

But, hey! There's something the fan community can do: put its money where its mouth is.  And no, I'm not talking about boycotting GW.   I'm talking about something, like, starting a legal defense fund specifically for the fan content creators that GW goes after.  Or the people who keep insisting things like parody, fair dealings, and transformative work apply hear can go pro bono and represent these people in court.  

 

I don't expect either of those things to happen.  Legal battles are expensive and can last for decades.  I really doubt this fan community - or any fan community, really - has the fortitude to contribute hundreds of thousands of dollars over decades on to back such a legal fight.  And everyone one who argues a legal point probably isn't an IP lawyer. Or, considering you cited a US case, isn't trained in internal IP or trademark law. 

 

The second part: When I, personally, think "American motorcycle manufacturer" I think Harley-Davidson. Or Indian. And no matter how poorly you think Harley-Davidson is doing, they're still making money.  And still have a core of devoted fans/customers willing to buy not only their motorcycles by their merch as well.  

[NovemberIX]

You're under the misconception that GW can pick and choose which courts have jurisdiction, it doesn't work like that. If it did, do you think GW would have chosen to present their case against Chapterhouse in the US? Ignoring the many many requirements to bring legal action against someone, how do you think a UK court is gonna enforce UK law to a US citizen?  I'll readily admit, I'm not speaking for anyone creating fanworks in the UK or internationally, but as GW does business in the US, and want to access the US market, they have to abide by US law as well.

 

Legal battles are expensive, it's why most end in settlement, but you know there are lawyers always looking for a way to bring some shine to their name by taking a David and Goliath case on contingency or pro-bono. Like you said, if it raises enough stink, the community could very well throw the money out there to defend someone, it's happened before, it could happen again.

 

HD is probably very glad you also think of them when you think American Motorcycle Manufacture, especially as Buell, Victory are quite dead. My only real opinion on Harley is that they make less than they did before, their market share is decreasing, and outside of this "post-lockdown" bubble, their growth has either been flat or negative for the better part of a decade. Their merchandising arm is a thing to envy, but ultimately brings in a small percentage amount of revenue. I've been told my people smarter than me that it's likely due to lack of innovation, not knowing what to do with Buell, and having trouble bringing in new blood without offending the old guard. I don't think they are wrong, name recognition is great, you still gotta have people buy from you though.

 

 

Edit: grammar, spelling, ya know, typos.

Edited July 31, 2021 by NovemberIX

[BluegrassGamer]

You're under the misconception that GW can pick and choose which courts have jurisdiction, it doesn't work like that. If it did, do you think GW would have chosen to present their case against Chapterhouse in the US? Ignoring the many many requirements to bring legal action against someone, how do you think a UK court is gonna enforce UK law to a US citizen?  I'll readily admit, I'm not speaking for anyone creating fanworks in the UK or internationally, but as GW does business in the US, and want to access the US market, they have to abide by US law as well.

 

Legal battles are expensive, it's why most end in settlement, but you know there are lawyers always looking for a way to bring some shine to their name by taking a David and Goliath case on contingency or pro-bono. Like you said, if it raises enough stink, the community could very well throw the money out there to defend someone, it's happened before, it could happen again.

 

HD is probably very glad you also think of them when you think American Motorcycle Manufacture, especially as Buell, Victory are quite dead. My only real opinion on Harley is that they make less than they did before, their market share is decreasing, and outside of this "post-lockdown" bubble, their growth has either been flat or negative for the better part of a decade. Their merchandising arm is a thing to envy, but ultimately brings in a small percentage amount of revenue. I've been told my people smarter than me that it's likely due to lack of innovation, not knowing what to do with Buell, and having trouble bringing in new blood without offending the old guard. I don't think they are wrong, name recognition is great, you still gotta have people buy from you though.

 

 

Edit: grammar, spelling, ya know, typos.

... I think I need that Star Wars quote from earlier.  The "Amazing! Every word you just said is wrong" one. 

 

 As a multinational and multi-million pound company? Games Workshop certainly can choose where to file a suit.  They can choose to file a suit in the jurisdiction that you live in or the jurisdiction that you do business. They might also have some way to argue that since GW is based in the UK that the case should be heard in UK courts.  How? I dunno.  Not a lawyer. 

 

A UK court shouldn't have any issue with enforcing civil judgement on a US citizen. Why? Legal reciprocity.  All it takes is for the plaintiff to walk in to a US court - I'm assuming at the federal level, but I'm not a lawyer - and show them the punitive judgement rendered by the UK court.  The US court is probably going to look at the punitive judgement issued against the US citizen and go "Yeap, we recognize that this is a valid judgement from a UK court. And it's enforceable."  And then that US citizen is boned.

 

I suppose the US citizen could try another round of litigation to show why the punitive judgment issued by a court in the UK shouldn't be recognized by the US courts.  But that's to require even more money and time to be on a lawsuit they've already lost once. 

 

And sure, the community could start a legal defense fun for fan content creators.  A top notch IP lawyer could decide to go pro bono and defend the fan content creators.  But I dunno.  Maybe I'm a cynic.  It's probably not going to happen again.  

[Inquisitor lorr]

You're under the misconception that GW can pick and choose which courts have jurisdiction, it doesn't work like that. If it did, do you think GW would have chosen to present their case against Chapterhouse in the US? Ignoring the many many requirements to bring legal action against someone, how do you think a UK court is gonna enforce UK law to a US citizen? I'll readily admit, I'm not speaking for anyone creating fanworks in the UK or internationally, but as GW does business in the US, and want to access the US market, they have to abide by US law as well.

 

Legal battles are expensive, it's why most end in settlement, but you know there are lawyers always looking for a way to bring some shine to their name by taking a David and Goliath case on contingency or pro-bono. Like you said, if it raises enough stink, the community could very well throw the money out there to defend someone, it's happened before, it could happen again.

They can pick and choose jurisdictions in certain circumstances - by no means clear cut, but it’s literally a thing - called ‘forum shopping’. Further, most jurisdictions have agreements/treaties etc which deal with enforcement of judgments out of jurisdiction. So it’s not as simple as saying they can choose whatever works best for them, but equally it’s not as clear cut as they are bound by circumstance, or prevented from enforcing out of jurisdiction.

 

Pro Bono doesn’t really work like that, generally speaking. In most jurisdictions the major risk to a defendant here is that of adverse costs I.e. paying GW’s costs if you lose, not the funding it yourself part (which is also hard). There are insurances available, but the insurers will undertake an assessment of merits, and I’d imagine most would be pretty nervous about taking something like this.

[Azekai]

...I'm talking about something, like, starting a legal defense fund specifically for the fan content creators that GW goes after.

 

 

This is so gross. Such an idea is completely unnecessary and is solely due to Games Workshop’s predatory actions. Why that should their tone-deaf shakedown include additional costs on the community? They could just... not act like corporate goons going after their own fan base.

[Marshal Rohr]

how do you think a UK court is gonna enforce UK law to a US citizen?

 

A series of international agreements and treaties that the US has with the UK? The same way there isn’t a British iPhone knock off? Chapterhouse was a gray area because it was after market parts. Chapterhouse wasn’t selling Adrian Smith artwork with a sepia filter. TTS is selling GW art with a funny voice over. Also, it’s worth pointing out 2+Tough uses official GW art in his videos, reached out to GW legal, and they said ‘yeah man you’re fine’. Alfabusa didn’t even try to do that.

Edited July 31, 2021 by Marshal Rohr

[BluegrassGamer]

 

This is so gross. Such an idea is completely unnecessary and is solely due to Games Workshop’s predatory actions. Why that should their tone-deaf shakedown include additional costs on the community? They could just... not act like corporate goons going after their own fan base.

 

 As I, and others, have said before: GW isn't being predatory, malicious, or any other scary sounding synonym that comes to mind.  They're being a corporation that is defending their IP.  And they're defending it from fan content creators who've blatantly infringing on their IP and profiting from that infringement  for years.  

 

Why should it be the fan community that finances a legal defense fund? Because it's percentage of the fan community that keeps saying  stuff to the affect of: "Oh no, the fan content creator I love had to take down their monetized YouTube channel because they were infringing on GW's IP! What the fan content creator was doing was clearly legally protected parody! GW's actions wouldn't stand up in court! It's just a shame that beloved fan content creator can't cover the legal fees!"  That same percentage says their going to boycott GW to teach them a lesson.  When, instead, they could be contributing to that fan content creator's legal defense so they can go on making the fan content that percentage claims to love. 

 

As an aside: I'm kind of glad I'm not the hypothetical lawyer trying to defend, say, TTS in court.  Mostly because I imagine that discovery alone would be hundreds upon thousands of stills taken from TTS episodes with pages of annotation documenting the providence each piece of GW artwork in each scene.  What army book or codex it came from, what year the army book or codex was published in, the page number its on, the relevant IP and/or trademark paperwork showing that GW owns that piece of artwork, and the contracts between GW and that artist who created that artwork.  "But the artwork in TTS moves!" Yeah, sure.  But I'm not certain it moves enough. 

[chapter master 454]

Getting messy in here, though discourse seems civil still...though wouldn't be surprised if the mods have meltas at the ready and maybe a crozius in there somewhere (I know you have it...).

 

So the legal end is messier than a Nurgle Slannesh post party mix-up, but there are elements to debate outside the legal end such as method and how well it may sail.

 

The main argument against all this however is a question of how much of the fan-base do we actually represent in terms of feelings. To that end for the tabletop game itself, likely a small fraction. In relation to animations, it may become...muddy. If you were looking for 40k animations on Youtube (because where else do you go?) you would have found those creators and would have followed them. Now you have this pop up and various elements come to light. While we may be a small forum, alone not only has Alvabusa made a video but many other big name 40k channels have made videos about this event.

 

Clearly, Alvabusa is an extremely notable and famous member of the 40k community that is known to a large percentage of 40k fans. And while you can argue people aren't smart and don't care much for small deal things, Alvabusa going dark on 40k is no small event now. This is combined with the other creators and the mixed signals that are going on with warhammer plus. While I applaud and have to wrestle with my own emotions against correct actions relating to the information given in the thread, the argument of the masses not caring for details works both ways and right now the surface narrative is all they care about:

 

GW has made changes that threatened Alvabusa.

 

That's the headline most are seeing. I am not saying there isn't more to the discussion but if the masses don't care about small things and details that as stated works both ways here. GW will see a backlash for this if not already, even despite the behest of even Alva himself asking people not to get up in arms (...hard thing to ask when 40k is all about getting up in arms about anything that isn't your own faction...unless it is your own faction...curse your own faction...ruined your own faction for all of your own faction).

 

And remember there further facets that do need addressing, not just legal matters here. Alvabusa made this decision with a lot of thought, and he also stated that even if GW gave him a greenlight, he wouldn't return right away. It cannot be disputed, you cannot dispute, that GW have been slipping into bad habits again. I am not talking just in this area but I will point to the state of Codices, the rampant "day 1" codices that contain additional rules for factions instead of getting on with the actual main factions. If the pipeline has become so rumbled by Covid, why bloat it with these inane additions? Why when people are asking for codices, not expansions. We are literally asking for our greens to finish because we don't want dessert yet because there hasn't been a proper meal yet! Couple that not just with the power creep of codices but also how unit options are becoming starkly stricter, tighter...less free. GW are clearly looking to put a noose around necks here and we need to call them out on it.

To me, this isn't about what legal side it lands on, this is about the whole of GW and their practices. Bad practices, no matter what, need called out and right now they are doing a whole lot of them.

 

Though if they want to shut me up they just need to announce new tau empire stuff, including new melee based suits, and I'd be sold. (This is a joke, I would call out bad practices even with models I really wanted. It would be hard but I stand by my principles).

[Noserenda]

To interject on the Star Wars point (Because for the love of god the GW side is way beyond circular nonsense at this point) Disney certainly noticed a huge downward turn in movie income over the last trilogy, Force Awakens tops out its sequels by hundreds of millions of dollars and if you dont think Disney is bitter over that you dont know corporations, they dont want some of the money, they want aaaaall of the money. Thus the seemingly very successful shift to TV, rather than heaps of spinoff movies which im sure even small fry like GW have noticed when planning out WH+.

Arguably the sequel trilogy looks even worse when you adjust for inflation but thats a whole nother rabbit hole :D 

[Gederas]

So, I said it was my last comment on it, but since I was called out I feel the need to explain my comment on the Star Wars thing:

I’ll @ you to quote Star Wars and say “everything you just said was wrong”. Especially saying the sequel series tanked when they’re the highest earners of the franchise. I don’t even like those movies and I’m not wailing.

Tank? You have a strange benchmark for tank. And to think that whatever social media comments made, had much of an impact. Twitter is a rather small echo chamber for a few very active people.

@gederas, the sequel trilogy didn't tank. It made over 4.4 BILLION dollars at the box office - on a combined budget of 837 million dollars! It didn't tank at all, but rather succeeded in a way that confirmed Disney's decision to buy Lucasfilm.

By Hollywood movie making standards, they were a flop, and did indeed tank.

 

A film needs to make, at the very least, 300% of what the budget was in order for the film to be considered a success in Hollywood. A combined 4.4 Billion box office on a combined budget of 837 million means that two out of the three did not make that 300%. In fact, The Force Awakens was the only successful one by how Hollywood standards work. The Sequel Trilogy had about 450% profits, which is "okay" by Hollywood standards. And in fact, TFA was half of that total box office profits for the entire trilogy. By Hollywood standards the sequel trilogy just barely broke even. That's by Hollywood standards, which was what my comments were on.

 

To interject on the Star Wars point (Because for the love of god the GW side is way beyond circular nonsense at this point) Disney certainly noticed a huge downward turn in movie income over the last trilogy, Force Awakens tops out its sequels by hundreds of millions of dollars and if you dont think Disney is bitter over that you dont know corporations, they dont want some of the money, they want aaaaall of the money. Thus the seemingly very successful shift to TV, rather than heaps of spinoff movies which im sure even small fry like GW have noticed when planning out WH+.

Arguably the sequel trilogy looks even worse when you adjust for inflation but thats a whole nother rabbit hole

Exactly. By Hollywood standards, the Star Wars Sequel Trilogy was just barely squeaking by. Oh and I'll go down that inflation rabbit hole to make my point

 

By Star Wars standards as a movie franchise? It was an utter dumpster fire because The Force Awakens only did as good as Attack of the Clones, which is considered the worst of the original six. Let that sink in. The best that the sequels could offer was only as successful as Hayden Christensen trying to schmooze Natalie Portman with the Force and Jar-Jar Binks convincing people that Senator Palpatine needed to be given emergency powers.The Phantom Menace made 1.03 Billion on a budget of 115 million.... That is almost 1000% budget. That's what's considered wildly successful by Hollywood standards.

 

Adjusted for inflation the Prequel Trilogy had a combined budget of 504 million dollars and a combined box office of 3.717 billion meaning that the prequels were about 750% profitable compared to the about 450% of the sequel trilogy. 

 

Or in layman's terms: Jar-Jar Binks, probably the most-hated character in the franchise, is 300% more liked and successful than the entirety of the sequel trilogy.

Edited August 1, 2021 by Gederas

[Petitioner's City]

@gederas, I more objected to your hyberbole. It didn't "tank" - a better term is "disappointed" (see the excellent analysis in Forbes here - https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2020/04/27/star-wars-box-office-rise-of-skywalker-disappointment-batman-v-superman-mummy-fantastic-beasts-spider-man/).

 

The unfortunate thing is whenever someone brings up Star Wars, the property is entirely mired in a host of subjective feelings which make it hard to discuss it even close to objectively. It is like a certain early 20th century political party, it just doesn't ever seen to help an angry nerd's argument because the situation is far more complicated - or nuanced - than the point they are making.

[NovemberIX]

... I think I need that Star Wars quote from earlier.  The "Amazing! Every word you just said is wrong" one. 

 

 As a multinational and multi-million pound company? Games Workshop certainly can choose where to file a suit.  They can choose to file a suit in the jurisdiction that you live in or the jurisdiction that you do business. They might also have some way to argue that since GW is based in the UK that the case should be heard in UK courts.  How? I dunno.  Not a lawyer. 

 

A UK court shouldn't have any issue with enforcing civil judgement on a US citizen. Why? Legal reciprocity.  All it takes is for the plaintiff to walk in to a US court - I'm assuming at the federal level, but I'm not a lawyer - and show them the punitive judgement rendered by the UK court.  The US court is probably going to look at the punitive judgement issued against the US citizen and go "Yeap, we recognize that this is a valid judgement from a UK court. And it's enforceable."  And then that US citizen is boned.

 

I suppose the US citizen could try another round of litigation to show why the punitive judgment issued by a court in the UK shouldn't be recognized by the US courts.  But that's to require even more money and time to be on a lawsuit they've already lost once. 

 

And sure, the community could start a legal defense fun for fan content creators.  A top notch IP lawyer could decide to go pro bono and defend the fan content creators.  But I dunno.  Maybe I'm a cynic.  It's probably not going to happen again.  

 

 

 

 

They can pick and choose jurisdictions in certain circumstances - by no means clear cut, but it’s literally a thing - called ‘forum shopping’. Further, most jurisdictions have agreements/treaties etc which deal with enforcement of judgments out of jurisdiction. So it’s not as simple as saying they can choose whatever works best for them, but equally it’s not as clear cut as they are bound by circumstance, or prevented from enforcing out of jurisdiction.

 

I'm gonna try to stay outta the weeds here, Jurisdiction required the court to be able to have control over the defendant, while a plaintiff may have some choices in where to file, it's not like they can pick at leisure. Reciprocity for as described above essentially would boil down to extradition, but we've basically been talking about DMCA notices, and DMCA is US law, which in the initial precludes UK courts from being involved.

[excelite]

Also, it’s worth pointing out 2+Tough uses official GW art in his videos, reached out to GW legal, and they said ‘yeah man you’re fine’. Alfabusa didn’t even try to do that.

This exact lack of action of some creators make me think this is all about drama and nothing more.

 

All those projects are said to be “passion projects”. But let’s be honest: if you’re passionate about something, you at least try to figure out a way to kelp things going…

 

Yes, in that case it means you reach out to GW, find out if you need to adopt, if so you evaluate if the required changes (if any) are within your budget/capability and then either adjust or conclude that it’s not viable anymore.

 

This holds true, especially if you make a living from your project that feeds your family and pays your mortgage.

 

To me it seems that “passion” of some of the creators has gone and some projects simply turned into jobs. Just have a look at the YouTubers… quite a lot had to take a timeout in the last months to not suffer a burnout.

 

And adding some possible legal challenges, I can very much understand that some people just conclude that it’s not worth it.

 

So what factors might play a role in this decision?

To me there are three main factors:

1) the way the YouTube algorithm works

2) an ever more demanding community

3) the ip owner that updates/clarifies the rules

 

1) will not change… yt does not give a crap about the people and their well being… if you don’t keep up, somebody else will, and that somebody else will generate more money…

 

3) seems to be a tipping point, but since people don’t even bother to find a solution the “damage” has been done somewhere else

 

That leaves 2), us as a community:

Nowadays people love to take offense by any tidbit and blow it out of proportion. We are not entitled to anything, but behave like we are.

 

In this context, I’m looking at the people asking for a statement about the changed/updated guidelines. This simply is not going to happen. This is nothing that needs to addressed to the general public. If you are using the ip, you simply need to comply. If you’re unsure if you do or need to adjust: reach out and make sure you’re compliant (like 2+ tough did)

 

Just have a look at the sodaz situation. It was for his best interest to take the offer and be hired. Professionally and probably personal as well. If that means that we will not get any more videos for free (and let that sink in… it’s free videos… nothing more) so be it. It’s a community member making a decision for his well-being. That is nothing of our concern and none of us have a voice to raise or take part in that decision. It’s his and his alone.

 

Over in the pricing thread (I think it was there) somebody compared the pricing strategy with an abusive relationship. While some of GW’s decisions are not consumer friendly, they are rational and probably went through some rational decision making progress.

 

I think the real abusive part here is a small but very vocal part of the community (like the people that harassed sodaz). And we all need to sit down, rethink our engagement and make some adjustments.

 

If you don’t like what a creator or GW is doing feel free to voice it, but accept that there are a lot of people who have no issue with the the same thing like me/you.

 

Sure we can organize an orchestrated boycott and if it actually reaches a critical mass it might succeed, but think about the consequences first. A lot of things like changes to the way an IP is legally defended is not up to the owner but the external factor of legal law. And this will not change due to some ruckus of a niche of a niche community. And be aware that GW is supply constrained (like they stated in their annual financial) and not demand constrained.

So you might want to do yourself a favor and lower your hope for success.

 

So what can/should we do?

 

I think we need to understand the following:

- the ip guidelines are simply a needed update that was necessary from a business standpoint due to the introduction of warhammer+ and not a new idea of somebody to create a “chilling effect” or something else

 

- if we want parts of our community to further work with the ip and enjoy some 3rd party content, we should encourage the creators to get in touch and get strings straightened out to comply - instead of going into full extremist mode, take a step back think about the reasoning (especially for business das implications, since you are dealing with a multinational corporation) and be constructive instead of toxic about changes.

 

- we should stop being offended by everything that’s not even close to be our business and we have to understand that there are things that we are not entitled to participate in (like the ip updates - that directly matter to creators - but for us it’s only indirect)

 

- we need to stop forcing our opinions on other people and create more positive more understanding community in general (this does not mean becoming accepting of all and everything) - not everything you have an issue with matters to me and vice versa. (As with harassing sodaz and such)