Intellectual property guidelines updated

[Azekai]

 

...Most people yelling boycott that I've seen have been people barely invested in the hobby, rabble rousing youtubers looking for the next click, or proud pirates/recasters validating their actions. No big loss there.

 

Seems like a double edged sword, since you seem to be implying that most of the ardent defenders of GW have spent lots of time and money on their hobby, and that screams 'sunk cost fallacy.'

 

I hope GW gets bitten badly by their poor decisions. Actions should have consequences.  

[Irate Khornate]

Also Alfabusa has released two TTS videos today after his big “I can’t do this because my future is in jeopardy” announcement, so people will end up shutting up about that aspect.

They were already made beforehis announcement. He just posted them on YouTube for people's convenience.

[Matcap86]

 

 

...Most people yelling boycott that I've seen have been people barely invested in the hobby, rabble rousing youtubers looking for the next click, or proud pirates/recasters validating their actions. No big loss there.

 

Seems like a double edged sword, since you seem to be implying that most of the ardent defenders of GW have spent lots of time and money on their hobby, and that screams 'sunk cost fallacy.'

 

I hope GW gets bitten badly by their poor decisions. Actions should have consequences.

Where do I imply that? I'm saying a relatively small and noisy part of the community, which likes to pretend it's the entire community, is already failing in keeping the momentum going after 4 days.

[Redcomet]

This would make sense if the argument is that these creators are using an exclusive access model. That means they are functionally selling a GW IP product. That is, if i understand what is happening.

 

 

 

Also, while i don't think boycotts are going to change GW's mind, if the community goes through with it, be conscious of how this effects FLGSs. Many independent retailers depend on GW product as a major lifeline. Find ways to support your stores in the absence of new GW purchases.

“The community” is a tiny percentage of GW’s customers. Whatever little boycot they try to put into effect won’t change anything. Except maybe hurt a small FLGS.

[Redcomet]

There's not yet been a successful boycott of Amazon or Starbucks both of which have far sketchier tax affairs and corporate behaviours and are far easier to present in an unflattering light.

 

The idea that there's a groundswell of nerd rage against GW in any meaningful sense is pretty laughable, this turns up as this vague background murmur every few years from a tiny minority of people who are actually involved in the hobby, and has done for the last 30 years at least.

 

What I've seen in the course of over three decades happening pretty consistently is a handful of the disgruntled players find a different game to play for a 6-24 months then come back to GW stuff because they want to play more often. A few of the other grumblers leave for good or for a long period. The remainder of them hang around but moan about it really only angry at themselves for not having the drive to take a break from the hobby.

 

By far the loudest voices I tend to come across online however are the rage filled "lapsed hobbyists" no longer doing anything in the hobby except complaining about the actions of a company they don't buy from. The screeching, wailing and gnashing of teeth will stop for in a week or two, for about a month, and then the next big whinge-fest will begin.

 

Rik

This. So much this.

 

“I haven’t bought a miniature since 2nd edition, and now I never will.”

 

“I don’t like anything GW is doing, so I only buy second hand and recasts, and I am furious.”

[Raktra]

 

Also Alfabusa has released two TTS videos today after his big “I can’t do this because my future is in jeopardy” announcement, so people will end up shutting up about that aspect.

They were already made beforehis announcement. He just posted them on YouTube for people's convenience.

Doesn’t matter, if you’re genuinely scared uploading would bring the hammer down, you don’t then upload regardless. It’s just drama capitalisation. Edited August 6, 2021 by Raktra

[Noctus Cornix]

I just personally find this whole thing to be confusing and a little sad. 

 

I will admit, I've done some commission work in the past for clients who have asked me to write lore for their armies that they have ideas for or short stories about their own characters they've created in the 40k setting. I've only done it a few times, but it was a fun and rewarding experience. I was able to collaborate with my client and bring their ideas to life for them, and I put a lot of effort into that work.

 

It was never primary source of income, but it was certainly work where I felt I had earned my pay.  

 

So, as someone who HAS done something that GW has identified in their new guidelines as unacceptable, I just find myself sympathetic for the artists and animators who have made some of their living off their efforts. 

 

To be completely frank, I don't know the legal grounds for any of this and I won't even try to act like I have even a clue. I know that GW has to protect their property, but is this really necessary? If you are trying to sell merchandise with GW IP, then I would understand. However, commission work is hiring the skills of the artist, not the IP. If that's what the client is interested in, so be it. At least, from my perspective, it's no different from hiring someone to paint your army for you. The client already has an idea of what they want to be drawn or written, they just don't have the skills to do it on their own. For that, they seek the skills of someone who does have those skills. 

 

I'm also sympathetic towards the animators who put a lot of effort and love into their work, but that's something of a mixed bag for me. 

[Arkhanist]

 

There's not yet been a successful boycott of Amazon or Starbucks both of which have far sketchier tax affairs and corporate behaviours and are far easier to present in an unflattering light.

The idea that there's a groundswell of nerd rage against GW in any meaningful sense is pretty laughable, this turns up as this vague background murmur every few years from a tiny minority of people who are actually involved in the hobby, and has done for the last 30 years at least.

What I've seen in the course of over three decades happening pretty consistently is a handful of the disgruntled players find a different game to play for a 6-24 months then come back to GW stuff because they want to play more often. A few of the other grumblers leave for good or for a long period. The remainder of them hang around but moan about it really only angry at themselves for not having the drive to take a break from the hobby.

By far the loudest voices I tend to come across online however are the rage filled "lapsed hobbyists" no longer doing anything in the hobby except complaining about the actions of a company they don't buy from. The screeching, wailing and gnashing of teeth will stop for in a week or two, for about a month, and then the next big whinge-fest will begin.

Rik

 

This. So much this.

“I haven’t bought a miniature since 2nd edition, and now I never will.”

“I don’t like anything GW is doing, so I only buy second hand and recasts, and I am furious.”

 

 

 

Ah yes, the 'no true Scotsman' argument - i.e. people stopping buying GW were never hobbyists anyway!

 

Well, I've been collecting, painting and playing since the mid 90s, and I have a loft full of plastic crack. And I am definitely thinking much longer about purchases from GW now. It's not any one thing, but between the price rises, the relentless FOMO marketing, and now the over-reach on copyright policy, I am definitely cooling on buying stuff from GW.

 

For example, though I am absolutely tempted by the new Kill Team, £125 for 22 minis and a book (I have no need of the terrain) is feeling pricy, and I'm not feeling like throwing money their way right now. "Good!" you cry. "more chance for me to get it!". Which is fine, go ahead.

 

GW profit is roaring right now. But I will remind you of the past. GW made plenty of money of the LOTR licence, but by the late 2000s that train was running out steam, and a string of consumer hostile actions, like year-on-year price hikes and going after fans with C&D did significant harm to their reputation, and lead to some really narrow profit margins in the early to mid 2010s. Their current profits are almost 10 times what they were, not least due to Rountree's substantial reforms, and likely due to a pandemic bonus (people stuck at home with no way to spend their entertainment budget on going out). But things can go down, as well as up.

 

So no, I don't expect me reducing what I buy to have any impact at all. But just go and have a look in the pricing thread so see other true fans starting to think harder about or stopping purchases. If they're an example of a larger trend, as has happened in the past, GW may be at more risk in the future than you think.

 

FWIW, the 3d printing model forums I'm part of have seem to seen a lot more new people in the last couple of months, and there have been a lot of 'I'm angry at GW, what's this 3d printing about then?' threads this last week.

Edited August 6, 2021 by Arkhanist

[Domhnall]

The thing that I really don't understand, is that if people are really that annoyed by GW that they will willling to go down the route of recasting/3D printing GW stuff, why bother actually playing Warhammer?

1. Going down this route is exactly why GW are having to do these IP updates, as the market for illegal copies increases*, the chances are that GW are going to up their game as well.

 

2. There are many many many many other games systems out there that could be made bigger and better by having a larger gaming community? 40k is only as big as it is because it was one of the first (not THE first, but one of them) that has lasted the test of time, maybe it's time for people to move over to another gaming system? 

 

3. 40k may have the biggest amount of story and lore out there which helps to keep people interested but again, I've read many people commenting about not liking where the story is going and how it's not the 40k that they know and love... If it's getting stale for you, find something fresh and more interesting. 

 

 

There are more points, but what I'm getting at, is if you are unhappy with the way GW are handling things: pricing, models, story, IP etc, then if may be the best thing for the wargaming community as a whole if more people branched out and played other game systems. It reduces GW's monopoly on the market by giving them some realistic competition, as well as giving a boost to other systems. 

I'm not writing this to bash individuals here, I'm writing this genuinely as something to honestly think about. I have done it myself in the past with other things, such as when D&D went from 3rd to 4th. I didn't like it, so moved over to pathfinder (I really liked 3rd...)

There's really no point complaining that McDonald's hambugers are garbage and you don't want to eat there, but still go there every Saturday. Go have a break, try new things, maybe in the future GW will have changed and you'll be happy to come back again.

But for now, maybe a change is as good as a rest. 

 

* - Personally, I'm fine with people who create their own unique versions from scratch, as I've purchases these myself on occasion, but not direct copies of existing models.

[Arkhanist]

The thing that I really don't understand, is that if people are really that annoyed by GW that they will willling to go down the route of recasting/3D printing GW stuff, why bother actually playing Warhammer?

...

 

* - Personally, I'm fine with people who create their own unique versions from scratch, as I've purchases these myself on occasion, but not direct copies of existing models.

 

Obviously I can't speak for other 3d printing people, but for me it was about the warhammer adjacent stuff I could do. Pre-designed bases, and 3rd party bits ala anvil industries or shapeways.

 

I used to be, but I'm not much of an actual 40k/AoS gamer these days; young children and I live in the depths of rural nowhere now. But I do collect (yes, I'm one of *those*) and paint when I have the time. I do enjoy planning paint schemes and units, even though I'm unlikely to put them on a table much for a few years more. I do play the board games though, and the girls are getting quite curious about my painting - I may induct them yet

 

But I like my models to be unique, I hate having more than one of the same guy, so I'm always buying bits to customise those new semi monopose models I've just bought. After looking at what the price would be for not many bits on shapeways once again, I decided to spend it on a printer instead. The upfront costs are significant, but the costs per model are far lower. I can print 10 or more bases for the same cost as just one resin one - and I can make them much more varied. For customising models, gubbins, backpacks, shoulderpads, different swords... the list goes on and on. I have a very substantial bits box, but there's a lot of things GW don't make; or if they do, you get 1 in a £30 box, and you need 10. Not clones of GW stuff (except really generic bits, like bullet shells) but variants.

 

I'm trying to update my Blood Angels with plastic Primaris; do death guard, because of Dark Imperium and I have like 7 boxes of plague marines; I couldn't resist genecult, I did buy Indomitus, Cursed City, etc etc.

 

So I don't print knockoff models - it would defeat the point of wanting to customise. I have printed some models that aren't warhammer related, because they're unique models and I wanted to paint them. If I were to start with say, expanding my death guard, I don't need more marines, but there are some great, original body-horror or diseased guys that would make great cultists - far more interesting than the monopose standard kit, and more appropriate for Nurgle. If I was to start a new army, it would probably be feudal guard or traitor guard - some really interesting designs out there, that GW don't do, and 20 year old cadians don't do it for me. Same goes for AoS with armies that haven't seen much love for a long time.

 

Thing is, I do have a huge backlog of stuff to paint. I've been trying to cut back a bit on buying the new shiny for years and years, and not succeeded - I'm such a sucker for imagining what I could do with the models. But with the prices going ever upwards above inflation, and the GW legal landgrab, I may finally have reached the point where I'm not going to keep throwing money at GW in big chunks. I probably will carry on buying rules so I can make legal and decent units, on the basis I may get a game again. I will definitely be buying more paint (until someone comes up with an alternative to Contrast!). I probably will buy more models, just a lot less. I may end up just satisfying my need for new stuff to paint by starting to print full models; not recasts, but proxies. I don't know yet.

 

I've no interest in other tabletop games; I started with WFRP and spacehulk around 1990 ish, and warhammer proper a couple of years later - you don't leave 30+ years of hobby behind easily, and I still enjoy the hobby side of warhammer immensely.

Edited August 6, 2021 by Arkhanist

[firestorm40k]

This whole episode is now reaching mainstream news satire sites :rolleyes: :huh: :lol:

 

https://newsthump.com/2021/08/06/fifth-chaos-god-is-the-god-of-copyright-enforcement-confirms-games-workshop/

[Irate Khornate]

The thing that I really don't understand, is that if people are really that annoyed by GW that they will willling to go down the route of recasting/3D printing GW stuff, why bother actually playing Warhammer?

1. Going down this route is exactly why GW are having to do these IP updates, as the market for illegal copies increases*, the chances are that GW are going to up their game as well.

With the quality of Forgeworld being questionable a decent bit of the time (knights having layer lines from the mold cast, bubbles on faces absolutely destroying the face, and bends that can be fixed temporarily by water bath but go back to the old shape after painting) I've got no issue with recasting or 3D printing. If I'm paying premium I expect premium. Yeah their customer service is great and replaces it with no issues, but being on the other side of the pond waiting that long for the original and even longer for the replacement is a bit much.

[Domhnall]

 

The thing that I really don't understand, is that if people are really that annoyed by GW that they will willling to go down the route of recasting/3D printing GW stuff, why bother actually playing Warhammer?

...

 

* - Personally, I'm fine with people who create their own unique versions from scratch, as I've purchases these myself on occasion, but not direct copies of existing models.

 

Obviously I can't speak for other 3d printing people, but for me it was about the warhammer adjacent stuff I could do. Pre-designed bases, and 3rd party bits ala anvil industries or shapeways.

 

I used to be, but I'm not much of an actual 40k/AoS gamer these days; young children and I live in the depths of rural nowhere now. But I do collect (yes, I'm one of *those*) and paint when I have the time. I do enjoy planning paint schemes and units, even though I'm unlikely to put them on a table much for a few years more. I do play the board games though, and the girls are getting quite curious about my painting - I may induct them yet

 

But I like my models to be unique, I hate having more than one of the same guy, so I'm always buying bits to customise those new semi monopose models I've just bought. After looking at what the price would be for not many bits on shapeways once again, I decided to spend it on a printer instead. The upfront costs are significant, but the costs per model are far lower. I can print 10 or more bases for the same cost as just one resin one - and I can make them much more varied. For customising models, gubbins, backpacks, shoulderpads, different swords... the list goes on and on. I have a very substantial bits box, but there's a lot of things GW don't make; or if they do, you get 1 in a £30 box, and you need 10. Not clones of GW stuff (except really generic bits, like bullet shells) but variants.

 

I'm trying to update my Blood Angels with plastic Primaris; do death guard, because of Dark Imperium and I have like 7 boxes of plague marines; I couldn't resist genecult, I did buy Indomitus, Cursed City, etc etc.

 

So I don't print knockoff models - it would defeat the point of wanting to customise. I have printed some models that aren't warhammer related, because they're unique models and I wanted to paint them. If I were to start with say, expanding my death guard, I don't need more marines, but there are some great, original body-horror or diseased guys that would make great cultists - far more interesting than the monopose standard kit, and more appropriate for Nurgle. If I was to start a new army, it would probably be feudal guard or traitor guard - some really interesting designs out there, that GW don't do, and 20 year old cadians don't do it for me. Same goes for AoS with armies that haven't seen much love for a long time.

 

Thing is, I do have a huge backlog of stuff to paint. I've been trying to cut back a bit on buying the new shiny for years and years, and not succeeded - I'm such a sucker for imagining what I could do with the models. But with the prices going ever upwards above inflation, and the GW legal landgrab, I may finally have reached the point where I'm not going to keep throwing money at GW in big chunks. I probably will carry on buying rules so I can make legal and decent units, on the basis I may get a game again. I will definitely be buying more paint (until someone comes up with an alternative to Contrast!). I probably will buy more models, just a lot less. I may end up just satisfying my need for new stuff to paint by starting to print full models; not recasts, but proxies. I don't know yet.

 

I've no interest in other tabletop games; I started with WFRP and spacehulk around 1990 ish, and warhammer proper a couple of years later - you don't leave 30+ years of hobby behind easily, and I still enjoy the hobby side of warhammer immensely.

 

 

Good answer, and thank you for your time to write that out 

Like yourself, I'm also just a collector (not played a proper game since 2nd edition!) and paint when I can. For me, I buy GW because I like the models (of which I buy far too many), and as you say quite rightly at the end, it is hard to step away after all those years. I left for a while, sold all models I had back in the days of yore, and I think I missed all of 4th edition. But I did come back for 5th and then never played but read and collected since then. 

 

I don't think I'll ever be getting into the 3D printer side of things though. For no other reason than I have far too many other hobbies and adulting that I just won't have the time to do anything with it 

 

 

A slightly rambling rhetorical question for the floor:

 

Can all agree that GW are probably the biggest wargaming/miniature company in the world just now? Do you think it's possible that they are struggling with how to go forward, in that they are the first of their size?

 

What I mean is, I've worked for a small business, and a largish business. The small company had that 'family' feel, whereas you just don't get that once a business becomes a certain size, employee-wise. It becomes more impersonal and by the book.

Is it too much of a stretch to say that GW are in this position now? Wargaming as hobby is quite 'close knit', in that you have a gaming group, either a few people up to 10's of people. Larger than that, and things start to become cumbersome, rules need to be implemented so that 'everybody gets a shot', and it becomes less 'fun'. 

Back in the day the local GW felt that close knit hobby place, whereas now, the guys in the shop are nice, but it's defintely a shop. Scaling up, is this where GW is. As it grows they need to increasingly protect their interests and appease the shareholders, rather than being the friendly hobby shop they used to be (mail order troll for example!). 

 

Two extremes this can go*: 

Can't make an omlette without breaking eggs: They will make mistakes on the way, upset some people, but hopefully down the line they can find their feet and get back on the right track. 

A big fish in a small pond: They will they do what a lot of these large companies do, overreach, oversize, try to please everybody but end up pleasing none.

 

* or any number of other ways, this is just examples. 

[tychobi]

Cutting off ones nose to spite ones face? Am I crazy to have the thought that not protecting the IP and instead being the industry leader of a game ecosystem might be even more profitable than the present confused old man model? Reminding the community over and over that they dont really know what they are doing is helping no one. Actions and words are not lining up and creators on the grey edge of outdated intellectual property laws have every reason to be as nervous as a squig at a stompa dance party. Is there a better way?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Look man they can do what they want and peop will just keep buying.

 

Lol

[Grotsmasha]

I'm NOT going to give up buying stuff, what I am giving up is Warhammer+. I was super excited for it, and the 25th couldn't come fast enough. Now, I'm out, I've sent GW a complaint explaining my position, and it's cause.

I understand GW is protecting their IP, as is their right, BUT treating the people who built their audience, and created the demand so callously and disrespectfully down right :cuss me right off.

For what my 2c is worth, they should have created a General use License specific for fan animators to apply for, hell GW could even stipulate that they can use the fan animations for free on Warhammer+ in the License.

[Doghouse]

The way I see it is hard for me to get my head around.

 

First off there were lots of creators using patreon and those people had to know this day would come, they had to know GW had a rep for throwing cease and desist letters about like confetti so this was a known risk on their part. Regardless of whether they were in the right or wrong GW legal will try and legal costs you into oblivion. They know it, we know it.

 

Secondly GW let it slide for years letting the Youtube community flourish and only stepped in when they decided to dive into the world of entertainment beyond tabletop themselves and then came across as Atilla the Hun salting the earth as they went. To further drive the message home they have effectively threatened to take down ALL future fan films regardless of whether they can or if that film is making money. They could have said make what you want just don't make money off it rather than zero tolerance policy. 

 

I'm just hoping they don't come for lore and battle reps next but if I were a content creator relying on patreon for income I'd be thinking it might be a good time to get a second job. 

 

I'm not buying GW stuff anymore (not out of boycott because they never work with GW) because they have for me left a very sour and unsavoury taste in my mouth and I no longer want to support them. 

[BrandX]

It’s interesting how some of you have decided that these rules are draconian, yet if I tried to rent out your lawn for parking spaces you would call the cops on me, when all I’m trying to do i is use your property to make a living.

[Azekai]

It’s interesting how some of you have decided that these rules are draconian, yet if I tried to rent out your lawn for parking spaces you would call the cops on me, when all I’m trying to do i is use your property to make a living.

Logic fail.

 

If you are taking someone else’s parking place, they lose it. If you are making Warhammer characters talk in silly voices and make a YouTube video about it, GW loses nothing.

[Raktra]

 

It’s interesting how some of you have decided that these rules are draconian, yet if I tried to rent out your lawn for parking spaces you would call the cops on me, when all I’m trying to do i is use your property to make a living.

Logic fail.

 

If you are taking someone else’s parking place, they lose it. If you are making Warhammer characters talk in silly voices and make a YouTube video about it, GW loses nothing.

Response fail, it’s about the use of property without consent. And also need we be reminded that *nobody did anything to Alfabusa other than Alfabusa*.

[BrandX]

 

It’s interesting how some of you have decided that these rules are draconian, yet if I tried to rent out your lawn for parking spaces you would call the cops on me, when all I’m trying to do i is use your property to make a living.

Logic fail.

If you are taking someone else’s parking place, they lose it. If you are making Warhammer characters talk in silly voices and make a YouTube video about it, GW loses nothing.

GW didn’t tell the funny voices to stop being funny, he wasn’t profiting from anything. The Kickstarter making deathguard minis on the otherhand. Hell I’ve only been here a month or two and I can tell you that was a deathguard marine.

[Joe]

I just recalled that past a certain point, donations via Patreon can be considered an income - this was a major stickling point in the last year or so with certain TikTok / OnlyFans stars, who were caught out by the entire affair and back-taxed appropriately. I'd be genuinely curious to hear if many of the animators who'd been accepting donations via Patreon (particularly Alfa, given the colossal jump from £7,500 to £15,000 p/m in the last week or so) are actually paying tax on them.

[SvenIronhand]

 

 

It’s interesting how some of you have decided that these rules are draconian, yet if I tried to rent out your lawn for parking spaces you would call the cops on me, when all I’m trying to do i is use your property to make a living.

Logic fail.

 

If you are taking someone else’s parking place, they lose it. If you are making Warhammer characters talk in silly voices and make a YouTube video about it, GW loses nothing.

Response fail, it’s about the use of property without consent. And also need we be reminded that *nobody did anything to Alfabusa other than Alfabusa*.

 

There is a difference between private and personal property. 

[Vazzy]

 

 

 

It’s interesting how some of you have decided that these rules are draconian, yet if I tried to rent out your lawn for parking spaces you would call the cops on me, when all I’m trying to do i is use your property to make a living.

Logic fail.

 

If you are taking someone else’s parking place, they lose it. If you are making Warhammer characters talk in silly voices and make a YouTube video about it, GW loses nothing.

Response fail, it’s about the use of property without consent. And also need we be reminded that *nobody did anything to Alfabusa other than Alfabusa*.

 

There is a difference between private and personal property. 

 

Which wasn't addressed in the opening post so isn't really relevant in this instance.

 

Unrelated to the above posts,

 

I understand being upset about TTS ending. As I've stated, I didn't care for it, but it's clear a very outspoken fanbase did, and I know having something you care about cancelled sucks big time (RIP Hannibal), but GW didn't actually do anything. This is entirely on Alfabusa, and the cynic in me can't help but feel he ended it now because he was sick of it and this gave him an easy scapegoat.

 

GW never contacted, never actually indicated they were going after him. His videos are all still up, and right now it doesn't really seem like he was actually at risk. The new IP rules haven't seemed to do much other than legitimize creators who a year ago the community was saying they wished GW would hire said creators. GW has plenty of issues, but this doesn't really feel like one of them and the outrage feels very misplaced. 

Edited August 7, 2021 by Vazzy

[Doghouse]

It’s interesting how some of you have decided that these rules are draconian, yet if I tried to rent out your lawn for parking spaces you would call the cops on me, when all I’m trying to do i is use your property to make a living.

 

To be fair the draconian aspect is that GW using their legal team and vastly superior cash resources to shut people down is what got them their reputation. They don't need to call the cops, they try to be the cops and shut people down using fear of bankruptcy.

There are plenty of examples of where they are well within their rights to do so but if you have been in the hobby long enough you also know there are plenty of times they have pulled some seriously shady stuff.

 

I don't think either party are one hundred per cent squeaky clean in this case. And given GWs long and established history of directly "taking inspiration from such and such" they are not looking great right now to a lot of us.

 

I don't know if GW is legally/morally in the right or not right now but they most certainly have earnt their reputation.

 

Whatever the outcome, give it six months and a couple of big releases such as the Heresy boxed set and the majority will have pushed the whole episode to the back of their minds.