Intellectual property guidelines updated

[Arkhanist]

The mere threat of going to court has a huge chilling effect on all sorts of areas, because the cost to hire a solicitor etc is prohibitive. You might have a clear cut case of fair use/fair dealing, but it's meaningless unless you have the substantial resources to actually fight it. The chilling effects of a C&D can and has shut down many things that are entirely legal because it's nowhere near worth the cost in time off work, legal advice fees etc to fight over something that is ultimately non-commercial, or barely so (e.g. youtube ads).

 

So an IP policy indicating GW plans to take a significantly stricter view of what they see as permissable will have a chilling effect on what people are prepared to create. That in itself is harm. And social media has been browbeaten into premptively taking stuff down just on notification, and then it's on you to stand up and fight it, with the threat of setting yourself up[ for court action if you don't roll over immediately. That they can claim pretty much anything, but can't back it up in court doesn't matter if you can't afford to defend yourself in the first place.

 

I'd also point out the reputation clause applies to more than just derivative works, e.g. some fan animation of space marines doing something unsavoury. It also applies to fan forums - i.e. here.

 

fan-sites... must

- not be prejudicial to the goodwill, reputation or integrity of GW or it's intellectual property.

 

 

Clearly I'm no legal expert, but that seems a pretty big chilling effect on what we're allowed to say about GW, their practises and their products - including this very thread - with the implied threat of legal action to the forum or us as individuals these new terms make if you write anything that could harm their 'reputation'. And that puts even more pressure on B&C staff to just delete anything that even smells of criticism of GW - again, a harm that comes about whether they have any actual grounds for action or not. And this is already the most silent-delete-for-unexplained-reasons forum I'm part of by a long way.

Edited July 21, 2021 by Arkhanist

[Bryan Blaire]

Arkhanist, I’d let the Admin team deal with that particular aspect of the forum - if something needed to be forthcoming on it, it would be from them.

[MegaVolt87]

I just wanted to apologize to everyone because a while back I made a joke saying GW would break the seals and runes on the dark cells containing the old GW legal department. Clearly someone at GW liked the idea and did just that.... 

[sarabando]

The mere threat of going to court has a huge chilling effect on all sorts of areas, because the cost to hire a solicitor etc is prohibitive. You might have a clear cut case of fair use/fair dealing, but it's meaningless unless you have the substantial resources to actually fight it. The chilling effects of a C&D can and has shut down many things that are entirely legal because it's nowhere near worth the cost in time off work, legal advice fees etc to fight over something that is ultimately non-commercial, or barely so (e.g. youtube ads).

 

So an IP policy indicating GW plans to take a significantly stricter view of what they see as permissable will have a chilling effect on what people are prepared to create. That in itself is harm. And social media has been browbeaten into premptively taking stuff down just on notification, and then it's on you to stand up and fight it, with the threat of setting yourself up[ for court action if you don't roll over immediately. That they can claim pretty much anything, but can't back it up in court doesn't matter if you can't afford to defend yourself in the first place.

 

I'd also point out the reputation clause applies to more than just derivative works, e.g. some fan animation of space marines doing something unsavoury. It also applies to fan forums - i.e. here.

 

fan-sites... must

- not be prejudicial to the goodwill, reputation or integrity of GW or it's intellectual property.

 

 

Clearly I'm no legal expert, but that seems a pretty big chilling effect on what we're allowed to say about GW, their practises and their products - including this very thread - with the implied threat of legal action to the forum or us as individuals these new terms make if you write anything that could harm their 'reputation'. And that puts even more pressure on B&C staff to just delete anything that even smells of criticism of GW - again, a harm that comes about whether they have any actual grounds for action or not. And this is already the most silent-delete-for-unexplained-reasons forum I'm part of by a long way.

there is zero chance that they could ever enforce that, can you imagine a shop taking a customer to court because they said their product was bad? nah that would be thrown out in seconds. secondly the idea of court costs being prohibitive to people standing up for there content is funny as we are in a hobby where i see people spending the cost of a small second hand car on new armies regularly i think theyh would have to be very very careful in who they tried to "silence" especially popular content creators.

[Vinny]

cant wait to make a fan film about how super advanced humans built men of iron and they rebelled against them nearly destroying them leading to a fudal culture that doesnt use computers and uses mutated humans called navigators to travel through space. im sure they will easily be able to prove that they came up with that .....

 

 

So I heard Brian Herbert and Warner Bros will send cease and desist demands to Games Workshop to takedown all  use of the word "Imperium" as infringing on the IP of Dune. 

 

I guess we call it the Empire of Man? Taken? Terran Empire? Taken? Well, gee...

 

20 years out from the hobby, come back and find GW is still the same. 

[caladancid]

I just wanted to apologize to everyone because a while back I made a joke saying GW would break the seals and runes on the dark cells containing the old GW legal department. Clearly someone at GW liked the idea and did just that....

I feel like I have to defend the profession some here——

 

The executives of GW are not huddled in a corner somewhere, browbeaten by their eeeeevil legal team who is forcing them to do all of this.

 

Whomever is in charge of GW has gone to their legal team and asked for options or advice to accomplish a goal. We all likely have different opinions of what that goal is- but it’s not one set by the legal team.

Edited July 21, 2021 by caladancid

[deathspectersgt7]

Ha ha ha!!! Can see all the new Chinese 3d start ups coming soon.

[Matcap86]

 

 

cant wait to make a fan film about how super advanced humans built men of iron and they rebelled against them nearly destroying them leading to a fudal culture that doesnt use computers and uses mutated humans called navigators to travel through space. im sure they will easily be able to prove that they came up with that .....

 

So I heard Brian Herbert and Warner Bros will send cease and desist demands to Games Workshop to takedown all use of the word "Imperium" as infringing on the IP of Dune.

 

I guess we call it the Empire of Man? Taken? Terran Empire? Taken? Well, gee...

 

20 years out from the hobby, come back and find GW is still the same.

It's really not. Wake me up when they start sueing for the term Space Marine again. Other than that it seems to me to just be generalistic groundwork for whenever they actually see the need to do something.

[Marshal Loss]

I'll be a little more concerned when any of this comes to real-world action, rather than just words on a website. Might well happen, but I've been around for a couple of these GW IP guideline changes, and they've rarely signaled an actual change in behavior.

 

Absolutely this. Policy means little until it is (or is not) enforced, so we'll have to see how this plays out. They're probably just covering their backs

[sarabando]

i just think that this is a massive vote of no confidence in warhammer + and they realise that they wont be able to compete with the YT sphere.

[Azekai]

 

 

 

...Are they scumbags?

Yes.

 

A corporation doesn't create anything, individuals do. The fact that a private money-driven collective can perform legal slight of hand to act as an individual responsible for the creative process allows them to weaponize what was once individual ownership. It's braincancer.

 

 

So why do you support them then? Why purchase their product? Why help these scumbags make more money?

 

Mmmm a string of questions asked in bad faith... fun.

 

Suffice to say that I would be delighted if GW got taken down a peg or several, and were forced to 'recalibrate' their corporate strategy.

I actively seek out other manufacturers and second hand sellers and have no love for the modern model line.

Edited July 21, 2021 by Azekai

[twopounder]

 

GW has no more right to their ideas than a feudal lord does to serfs. The current paradigm is downright poisonous to free expression. 

 

The sooner we recognize this, the better. 

 

Why don't they have a right to their own ideas? Does Disney not have a right to Mickey Mouse, or DC to Superman or Marvel to the X-Men? What about you? Do you have the right to your own ideas? I don't understand this.

 

 

Technically no, you don't have a right to ideas. You have a right to produced content. You cannot patent, trademark or copyright an idea.

 

They do have rights to their own property and it is completely within their rights to cut us off entirely from that content. How much business sense that makes is up for debate.

[MegaVolt87]

 

I just wanted to apologize to everyone because a while back I made a joke saying GW would break the seals and runes on the dark cells containing the old GW legal department. Clearly someone at GW liked the idea and did just that....

I feel like I have to defend the profession some here——

 

The executives of GW are not huddled in a corner somewhere, browbeaten by their eeeeevil legal team who is forcing them to do all of this.

 

Whomever is in charge of GW has gone to their legal team and asked for options or advice to accomplish a goal. We all likely have different opinions of what that goal is- but it’s not one set by the legal team.

 

 

I was joking, I know a lot of lawyers myself even though its not my profession. Just a little light trolling we do with each other.   Anyway, as far as fan animation, its a thing where content creators mark their channels off for monetization, but youtube STILL runs ads on their channel content. What's GW going to do here? Copy right strike these people and legally threaten them when its not their fault? GW sues youtube because that's where the money goes from ads when they are put on channels that are not marked for monetization I believe. Man I fell sorry for Brits, looks like GW wants people to have a licence for everything even complaining lol. Good luck enforcing this in China or Eastern Europe GW where all this will consolidate to spite you, the Streisand effect. 

[twopounder]

 

 

 

 

...Are they scumbags?

Yes.

 

A corporation doesn't create anything, individuals do. The fact that a private money-driven collective can perform legal slight of hand to act as an individual responsible for the creative process allows them to weaponize what was once individual ownership. It's braincancer.

 

 

So why do you support them then? Why purchase their product? Why help these scumbags make more money?

 

Mmmm a string of questions asked in bad faith... fun.

 

Suffice to say that I would be delighted if GW got taken down a peg or several, and were forced to 'recalibrate' their corporate strategy.

I actively seek out other manufacturers and second hand sellers and have no love for the modern model line.

 

 

By that line of thinking - corporations don't do anything wrong, individuals do. If you can't reward them, you can't punish them either. GW does right and wrong as both employees of an organization and a company as a whole. You cannot embargo the company without taking money from the employees. You cannot buy models without paying the lawyers.

[BrandX]

 

 

 

 

 

 

...Are they scumbags?

Yes.

 

A corporation doesn't create anything, individuals do. The fact that a private money-driven collective can perform legal slight of hand to act as an individual responsible for the creative process allows them to weaponize what was once individual ownership. It's braincancer.

So why do you support them then? Why purchase their product? Why help these scumbags make more money?

Mmmm a string of questions asked in bad faith... fun.

 

Suffice to say that I would be delighted if GW got taken down a peg or several, and were forced to 'recalibrate' their corporate strategy.

I actively seek out other manufacturers and second hand sellers and have no love for the modern model line.

A little curious now. But why are you here? Do you just browse the forms looking for bad news about the game you dislike?

[Cpt_Reaper]

The issue I have with this move and the zero communication GW have provided is it has once against turned the community against itself.

 

Did you defend the move? You're a corporate shill!

Did you attack the move? You are a supporter of piracy and criminal activity!

 

Personally when the argument "GW is evil and I hate everything they do" is made, I stop listening because that person has nothing valuable to state. But if they say "I don't like action X because of these reasons" I will engage in a discussion.

[Zeratil]

My only concern is choking off the very outlet that they themselves have mined for content.

Warhammer+ animation content is largely coming from fan projects from YouTube. These talented creators uploaded 40k videos, to celebrate their love of the lore and game.

GW recognized the quality of some of these productions and made offers to those creators. Some like the Astartes project went for it, others have bowed out.

 

Creating a complete ban negates the exploration of these artists, the very same people GW might want to contract later if their work is good. The community pool of creators is diverse, and some of it very talented.

 

Does this also apply to game mods?

Back in the day the modding community added immense value to game longevity by expanding content for games. I recall my time on the Daemonhunters and Steel Legion mod teams for DoW1. Hell we even played our mod with the Relic guys, it was boss! Adding new content to Spacemarine years later, another great time. If I'm reading this right all of that is now Verboten.

 

For myself I've mulled over doing some more 40k animation, it's been 10 years since my last bits went up. Now I'm worried it would just earn me a C&D.

 

  Mods have always been in a tricky spot legally speaking - GW has always been quite hard on them historically and even recently they tend to have extensive agreements in place with studios about modding tools for their games and what content can be in them. Total War Warhammer is the best example of this - GW allow mods through CA, but they have agreements with CA that certain things aren't allowed on the steam workshop (IIRC all mods must use ingame art assets for example). 3rd party mods are slightly different in that they are probably infringing under the new and old policy but are not likely worth the trouble to go after legally - unlike youtube and social media modding has mostly flown under the radar for most companies. Much of it is technically infringing but the cost/benefit to going after it has never seemed to come up in favour of the investigation and enforcement (and the associated costs) for most companies.

 

The mere threat of going to court has a huge chilling effect on all sorts of areas, because the cost to hire a solicitor etc is prohibitive. You might have a clear cut case of fair use/fair dealing, but it's meaningless unless you have the substantial resources to actually fight it. The chilling effects of a C&D can and has shut down many things that are entirely legal because it's nowhere near worth the cost in time off work, legal advice fees etc to fight over something that is ultimately non-commercial, or barely so (e.g. youtube ads).

 

So an IP policy indicating GW plans to take a significantly stricter view of what they see as permissable will have a chilling effect on what people are prepared to create. That in itself is harm. And social media has been browbeaten into premptively taking stuff down just on notification, and then it's on you to stand up and fight it, with the threat of setting yourself up[ for court action if you don't roll over immediately. That they can claim pretty much anything, but can't back it up in court doesn't matter if you can't afford to defend yourself in the first place.

 

I'd also point out the reputation clause applies to more than just derivative works, e.g. some fan animation of space marines doing something unsavoury. It also applies to fan forums - i.e. here.

 

fan-sites... must

- not be prejudicial to the goodwill, reputation or integrity of GW or it's intellectual property.

 

 

Clearly I'm no legal expert, but that seems a pretty big chilling effect on what we're allowed to say about GW, their practises and their products - including this very thread - with the implied threat of legal action to the forum or us as individuals these new terms make if you write anything that could harm their 'reputation'. And that puts even more pressure on B&C staff to just delete anything that even smells of criticism of GW - again, a harm that comes about whether they have any actual grounds for action or not. And this is already the most silent-delete-for-unexplained-reasons forum I'm part of by a long way.

  B&C is fine, this sort of language is fairly standard and people are taking it in isolation, rather than as part of the legal framework of IP protection and fair use that exists. There can be a chilling effect from such policies when they're wielded as a hammer - mostly as someone else said from the financial barrier to fight it. But review, comment and criticism are all well protected in E&W law (and most other western legal systems GW has bases in). If GW went back after someone for legitimate criticism of their product - by which I mean a criticism a reasonable person could make - they'd face an impossible barrier to enforce this policy in that way, the damages awarded to the defendant would likely be very high too - courts look very ill upon companies that try to bully people in this way in the very few attempts that ever reach court. GW is covering their bases against illegitimate criticism ("Games Workshop is a cult that is trying to indoctrinate children to turn themselves in cyborg killing machines") and people using their IP protected material in ways they don't approve of (that might otherwise be game for fair use) - so pornography, extreme political views etc.

[Marshal Rohr]

The ‘chilling effect’ clause isn’t about criticism. It’s about a certain subsect of LoreTube that does one Warhammer video and then nine political videos

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

After the Chapterhouse debacle and Matt Ward I fully support geedub.

 

Sodaz can rip Starcraft now… tears are flowing.

Edited July 22, 2021 by Black Blow Fly

[Marshal Rohr]

Sodaz stopped working on that project because people were harassing them

[Marshal Reinhard]

20 years out from the hobby, come back and find GW is still the same. 

They're still a business, yes.

[Skywrath]

 

20 years out from the hobby, come back and find GW is still the same. 

They're still a greedy/petty business, yes.

 

Fixed it for you.

Edited July 22, 2021 by Skywrath

[Matcap86]

 

 

 

 

 

 

20 years out from the hobby, come back and find GW is still the same.

They're still a greedy/petty business, yes.

Fixed it for you.

Oh come off it, this is just being petulant.

[AenarIT]

The issue I have with this move and the zero communication GW have provided is it has once against turned the community against itself.

 

Did you defend the move? You're a corporate shill!

Did you attack the move? You are a supporter of piracy and criminal activity!

 

Personally when the argument "GW is evil and I hate everything they do" is made, I stop listening because that person has nothing valuable to state. But if they say "I don't like action X because of these reasons" I will engage in a discussion.

There are indeed shades of grey.

 

I have a 3D resin printer, multiple Patreon subscriptions to sculptors that create stuff in a grim dark sci-fi setting, a Battlescribe subscription (best app ever!), a profound love for a Russian website that collects all 40K rules in the best possible way and a lot of hobby material (paints, brushes, tools, ...) made from a whole range of different companies.

Yet I have more than 20k points of official, legit, non-recasted, ... GW models across five different armies, too many GW rulebooks and a ton of Citadel paints, brushes, tools. I have also been a (small, unfortunately) GW shareholder for a few years now. 

 

This idea that you're either a GW customer that lives and breathes only inside the GW environment or you're a pirate that has no say on what happens in this hobby is silly, to keep it mildly. I simply enjoy the hobby and the game and I try to get the best possible product depending on what I want.

 

Do I want a great black for basecoating? Vallejo Model Color Black is my go to. A great yellow? Citadel Yriel Yellow and Flash Gitz Yellow are great colors. A great brush? Winsor&Newton S7 are the best I have ever used. 

Do I want to write a list? Battlescribe on desktop is more convenient than Excel or a piece of paper, as a mobile phone app is not for me. 

Do I want a digital source of rules, updated to the last FAQ and with hyperlinked rules? A certain Russian website comes to rescue. A booklet to quickly reference rules during games? The Chapter Approved booklet is the solution. A physical copy of an old Codex that is still missing from my collection? I'll spend weeks on eBay and other auction sites looking for one, and probably end spending too much on an unnecessary piece of paper.

Do I want a new army of space bugs, but I don't want it to look boring and to work with decades old models? I'll subscribe to yet another STL Patreon and 3D print some space bugs proxies myself, for a fraction of the price. More models for my Red Scorpions army? I'll place an order at my FLGS. Shoulder pads for my Red Scorpions, now that the official transfer sheet has been OOP for years? A Shapeways order is ready to go. 

 

I am a happier hobbyist when I have more choice. Trying to reduce that makes sense for GW, but the reason why people choose alternative products instead of GW ones is because they prefer those. For many reasons. 

Cracking down on recasts, counterfeit models makes perfect sense. But their definition of "imitation models", for example, seems to me like an attempt to overreach and scare creators away from the hobby. I have serious doubts that a court of law would rule that one of many product lines from kickstarters, patreons and proper companies are too similar to GW product lines. 

 

In the end, if they really start cracking down on competitors, they may end up shooting themselves in the foot.

I'd have never started a Guard army if Anvil Industry didn't exist, as their resin heads and legs allowed me to customize the dull looking Cadians (dull looking imho, obviously). 

I'd have never started a Red Scorpions army if I weren't able to get shoulder pads from Shapeways since the official transfer sheet has been OOP for years now. And so on.

That's money I'd have never spent on GW products.

As for fan films and animations, I get that they have a proper product in that space (Warhammer PLOOS) and want no competition. It's reasonable yet a bit silly, since without amateur animators they wouldn't have hired the Astartes guy and many others. Not mentioning the free advertising from them. 

But then again, it's not a product I have ever been interested in so I don't really care. 

Edited July 22, 2021 by AenarIT

[sarabando]

The fact is that the community simple does Warhammer better than GW does XD and they are big mad about it.