SW successor nerf...no counter charge (6" HI)

[Kallas]

The counter argument is look at the wording for all stratagems and rules that grant a HI to non characters

They all say "as if a character"

 

The TO ruled "character" or rule that grants HI as if a character is a requirement for HI

 

Literally adding a new requirement, because the Stratagem tells you that the selected unit can perform a Heroic Intervention. This isn't RAW, this is adding rules that don't exist.

 

Do other Stratagems have the "as if a Character" wording? Yes. Does that mean Counter Charge doesn't work? No.

 

"Use this Stratagem in your opponent's Charge phase. Select one Space Wolves unit from your army. Until the end of the phase, that unit is eligible to perform a Heroic Intervention if it is within 6" of an enemy unit, and when performing a Heroic Intervention with that unit, you can move each model in that unit up to 6". All other rules for Heroic Intervention still apply. This Stratagem costs 0CP if the Space Wolves unit you select is a Character."

 

Eligible:

Satisfying the appropriate conditions.

Edited August 5, 2021 by Kallas

[TiguriusX]

 

 

The counter argument is look at the wording for all stratagems and rules that grant a HI to non characters

They all say "as if a character"

 

The TO ruled "character" or rule that grants HI as if a character is a requirement for HI

Literally adding a new requirement, because the Stratagem tells you that the selected unit can perform a Heroic Intervention. This isn't RAW, this is adding rules that don't exist.

 

Do other Stratagems have the "as if a Character" wording? Yes. Does that mean Counter Charge doesn't work? No.

All other rules for Heroic Intervention still apply

 

 

That is why they read HI and decided character was also a requirement

 

There is no 100% quoting of rules that solves this problem.

 

Write to GW so we get it fixed

[Kallas]

There is no 100% quoting of rules that solves this problem.

Write to GW so we get it fixed

 

Repeating a wrong assertion also doesn't make it so.

[TiguriusX]

 

 

There is no 100% quoting of rules that solves this problem.

Write to GW so we get it fixed

Repeating a wrong assertion also doesn't make it so.

The only thing that matters is some TO have started adopting this ruling.

 

This isn't some "that guy" story about a bad league night.

 

In my league where I play SW successor it the law as far as I am concerned

[Karhedron]

My take is that the TO is incorrect in his interpretation, the Core rules state:

 

Your opponent can now select an eligible Character unit from their army to perform a Heroic Intervention (see below).

Being a character is not a requirement of being able to perform an HI and not being a Character does not prevent you from eligible.

 

The Core rules ALLOW a Character to perform an HI. They do not state or imply that only Characters can HI. Other things like stratagems can allow non-Character units to HI.

 

I agree that a ruling from GW would clarify this and the inconsistency with other Stratagems muddies the issue. But I still think the TO is fundamentally wrong in interpreting permission as a requirement.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I know that I said I wouldn't post in this topic again but for what it's worth I think to win this argument with a TO your going need to address 3 things.

 

1) Why does the deathguard stratagem, the blood angel stratagem, and our chapter tactic require the "eligible to perform Heroic Intervention as if it were a character" clause. Why won't they just say the unit is eligible if it meets the conditions? They're are all 9th edition rules and were released very close to each other, so explaining what makes counter charge special is key.

 

2) If selecting the unit with counter charge makes it eligible, does it check the conditions again? Say for example during my turn I charge a Judiciar, and intercessor squad. The Judiciar kills a couple marines so I remove the two closet to him. I fight with my unit and get the squad within engagement of range of the judiciar but not base to base, I wipe the intercessors with my attacks, and choose not to pile in. During their charge phase I pop counter charge making the unit eligible to HI because they're within 6" horizontally of the judiciar. Does my unit then become ineligible because its in engagement range? This is pretty important as long as no one in the unit is touching base to base, you'd be able to move closer and gain shock assault with counter charge. In prolonged fights this could be pretty useful if your opponent activates first with a squad with big bases. Personally I don't think it works this way but I think its all or nothing with the eligibility argument. This goes back to the first point, this is where your saying counter charge is different than our chapter tactic and the other stratagems. I suspect he'll point out that counter charge says "all other rules for heroic intervention still apply" but maybe you can convince them it just means the unit needs to end its HI closer to the closet enemy unit, and that it can only perform one.

 

3) You need to find the part of the heroic intervention rule that allows you to select eligible units without the CHARACTER keyword. The closest I can find "after they have finished performing a heroic intervention with a CHARACTER unit they can then select another eligible CHARACTER to do so, and so on, until they have done so with as many units as they wish". I think so on limits you to eligible CHARACTER units but maybe not. I'd also make a list of examples where the bullet points under the rules are wrong because those bullet points underneath HI drop eligible and just say select a CHARACTER and then list the eligibility requirements. Which heavily implies to me that you need to be CHARACTER that is eligible.

 

Regardless the best course of action is emailing GW, cause honestly this is their mess. If your going to give an ability to every character in the game there is no reason for it not to have an USR. If there was one we wouldn't be having this debate the stratagem would either give the rule or just modify it. They also wouldn't have had to make a strikes first/last flowchart. 

Edited August 6, 2021 by Jorin Helm-splitter

[NatBrannigan]

Who on earth is the person who combs books looking desperately for ways to stop rules working? This is.... convoluted at best. Be like saying a captain can't give rerolls of 1 to hit because, even though he has that rule, it doesn't say anything about rerolls in the core rule. 

 

I wouldn't be playing in a tournament that uses this as a ruling, its absurd reasoning.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Who on earth is the person who combs books looking desperately for ways to stop rules working? This is.... convoluted at best. Be like saying a captain can't give rerolls of 1 to hit because, even though he has that rule, it doesn't say anything about rerolls in the core rule. 

 

I wouldn't be playing in a tournament that uses this as a ruling, its absurd reasoning.

 

My bet would be someone who lost a game to a successor chapter using countercharge in a gochta moment. Then after the game they researched it because reviewing how you lost is one of the best ways to get better. Noticed that counter charge is different from every other ability that grants heroic intervention. Was angry complained to the TO, and then the TO agreed with them. That's pretty reasonable its not some sick in the head person who wants things not to work, its someone who felt that they were cheated.

 

For what its worth I sent my email to GW about it, the email address is 40kFAQ@gwplc.com if any of you want to send in your thoughts on it. You'll only get an auto-response but if enough of us ask you'll know how it works the next time they update FAQs and you'll take random TOs out of the equation.  

 

Also the rules for re-rolls are on page 57 of chapter approved, I'm willing to be they're in the core book as well look it up in the rules glossary it should give you a page number.  

[Kallas]

1) Why does the deathguard stratagem, the blood angel stratagem, and our chapter tactic require the "eligible to perform Heroic Intervention as if it were a character" clause. Why won't they just say the unit is eligible if it meets the conditions? They're are all 9th edition rules and were released very close to each other, so explaining what makes counter charge special is key.

 

I think why might be related to your point 2), I'll explain down there.

 

3) You need to find the part of the heroic intervention rule that allows you to select eligible units without the CHARACTER keyword. The closest I can find "after they have finished performing a heroic intervention with a CHARACTER unit they can then select another eligible CHARACTER to do so, and so on, until they have done so with as many units as they wish". I think so on limits you to eligible CHARACTER units but maybe not. I'd also make a list of examples where the bullet points under the rules are wrong because those bullet points underneath HI drop eligible and just say select a CHARACTER and then list the eligibility requirements. Which heavily implies to me that you need to be CHARACTER that is eligible.

 

This, especially that first sentence, is irrelevant. You're not selecting a unit through the Stratagem and then selecting them again through the Heroic Intervention rules: the Stratagem is the selection.

 

Again though, Stratagems are rules that alter the core rules (typically), as do many datasheet rules. This is the exact same principle as fight twice Stratagems, or abilities; they don't expressly allow one to bypass the 'can only fight once per fight phase' rule in the Fight phase core rules.

 

2) If selecting the unit with counter charge makes it eligible, does it check the conditions again? Say for example during my turn I charge a Judiciar, and intercessor squad. The Judiciar kills a couple marines so I remove the two closet to him. I fight with my unit and get the squad within engagement of range of the judiciar but not base to base, I wipe the intercessors with my attacks, and choose not to pile in. During their charge phase I pop counter charge making the unit eligible to HI because they're within 6" horizontally of the judiciar. Does my unit then become ineligible because its in engagement range? This is pretty important as long as no one in the unit is touching base to base, you'd be able to move closer and gain shock assault with counter charge. In prolonged fights this could be pretty useful if your opponent activates first with a squad with big bases. Personally I don't think it works this way but I think its all or nothing with the eligibility argument. This goes back to the first point, this is where your saying counter charge is different than our chapter tactic and the other stratagems. I suspect he'll point out that counter charge says "all other rules for heroic intervention still apply" but maybe you can convince them it just means the unit needs to end its HI closer to the closet enemy unit, and that it can only perform one.

 

So reading this I think you have a very good point: I think it might be intended for Counter Charge to be better than the similar Stratagems.

 

I was ready to say that this, "2) If selecting the unit with counter charge makes it eligible, does it check the conditions again?" should clearly be no, because eligible means they can perform it if they're not within engagement range. But you may be on to something that if it makes them fully eligible upon use of the Stratagem, it would allow the unit to HI while within Engagement range of an enemy unit.

 

But then this is getting far away from the actual point, so I'll stop going down this tangent, but felt it was interesting anyway.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

For what its worth units that are eligible to fight don't seem to lose it (select target mentions still being able to consolidate if they are no enemies within engagement range). Not sure if that's new but I definitely have left a fair amount of movement on the table this edition.

 

As far as the stratagem selecting the unit I think that's pretty debatable it definitely makes it eligible and has modifies the action when you do it. The problem is that it just doesn't tell you to do it. I think you can make a RAI debate for and against that but its not RAW IMO.  

 

Regardless I'm not the one to convince. Ask GW how it works, not going to lie I'm tempted to send them a second email asking why heroic intervention isn't a USR. Every character has it, and they want to give it to other units so just make it one. It would make the wording less awkward and would make it clear if something grants and/or modifies it.

[TiguriusX]

For what its worth units that are eligible to fight don't seem to lose it (select target mentions still being able to consolidate if they are no enemies within engagement range).

not sure I agree with this

 

a unit can be pulled out of melee engagement range and therefore change from eligible to ineligible

 

charging units have a special rule saying they always activate but non chargers can be denied.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

That's fair the and/or charged this turn in the eligibility conditions is probably the special rule your referring too. I haven't been giving myself that lol, but I do think this the type of agrument you have to be able to win to use counter charge.

[Karhedron]

I could be wrong but I think the reason Counter Charge is worded differently than SW units normally have access to HI via their Chapter Tactic. I think GW simply overlooked this for sucessors.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I could be wrong but I think the reason Counter Charge is worded differently than SW units normally have access to HI via their Chapter Tactic. I think GW simply overlooked this for sucessors.

Yeah I said as much earlier. It's partially why I keep posting about emailing GW so they fix it. That said I have time off that I had to burn and have been completely no-lifing it. So it's been a fun distraction between applying for other jobs, and playing GG.

Edited August 12, 2021 by Jorin Helm-splitter

[Kallas]

 

For what its worth units that are eligible to fight don't seem to lose it (select target mentions still being able to consolidate if they are no enemies within engagement range).

not sure I agree with this

 

a unit can be pulled out of melee engagement range and therefore change from eligible to ineligible

 

charging units have a special rule saying they always activate but non chargers can be denied.

 

This is also a different selection criteria. Units eligible to fight (and therefore pile in/consolidate) that didn't charge are checked at multiple different points throughout the Fight phase. The similarity would be if you and your opponent could both HI in each Charge phase, as then one unit might HI into a previously eligible unit, thereby making it ineligible.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

@Kallas - Yeah I pretty much conceded that point to TiguriusX earlier. I misread the and/or charged clause and with ineligible units able to become eligible but no mention of the reverse and I jumped to a conclusion.  

 

I'm not arguing that countercharge doesn't work on successors because I don't want it to. I would much rather provide an argument that makes it clear they can. The two main arguments for why it should work for successors in this thread is that it makes them eligible to perform it so it doesn't matter that they aren't characters, and that the stratagem selects the unit to intervene. The stratagem makes a unit eligible, and has a rule triggered when it does so but that is conditional on it doing the action in the first place. So I really think to convince someone that rules against successors using countercharge you have to convince them that eligibility is the most important factor.    

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

So I picked up the Thousand Sons book and it has a Heroic Intervention stratagem that doesn't use the as if a character clause. Its called Selfless Automata and just states a unit of rubrics marines or scarab termies can heroically intervene in certain situations. Its a pretty complex stratagem they can use it if one of those unit is within 12" of a unit that charged a TS character, and isn't engaged with an enemy unit. When they perform the HI they move 2d6 but can only finish the move within engagement range of the unit that charged, and only that unit. I'm really not sure how effective it will be, but for this debate its interesting because it is completely different wording. 

 

I think the argument the TO made in the original post that unit has to be character to HI is countered a bit with the way this one is worded. They call it a heroic intervention instead of a consolidation move or just saying the unit moves 2d6 following the restrictions listed in the rule. So I think it at least opens the door to not needing to be character, and consistency argument also takes a hit. I don't think it answers how you select the unit with countercharge, but that's been my argument not the TOs going by the OP.

 

*Pretty sure the stratagem uses more words than this post LOL.

[TiguriusX]

After continued discussion the TO in the league I play in has reversed this decision

 

I get full powered successor HI stratagems again

 

Woot woot!

 

****

I have amended the ruling regarding SW successors and HI stratagem. It now works for successor chapters as well. I still believe RAW says otherwise, but in the end I prefer for this to be played the way most events play the rule

****

[Lord Blackwood]

Yea but why? 

Is his only reasoning that it falls inline with the way other events play? 

If thats the case then obviously no ones playing it RAW so why enforce that in your events ? 

 

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Yea but why? 

 

Is his only reasoning that it falls inline with the way other events play? 

 

If thats the case then obviously no ones playing it RAW so why enforce that in your events ? 

 

 

 

If enough big events are ruling that successors can do it I could see why he would change his mind. A lot of people are using tabletop simulator like TiguriusX to prep for those events. So it makes more sense to echo their rulings and stay consistent even if you don't agree with it. 

 

That said GW is being pretty lazy with their FAQs again, and they need to tighten them up if they're going to keep focusing on tournaments.