Belisarius Cawl : The Primaris Project

[mel_danes]

Artwork by the talented Dmitry Brushray

In the new Lore we know that at the behest of Roboute Guilliman, Cawl began the Primaris development process. He labored at this task for thousands of years.

I am trying to find as much information as I can on the history and methods of training of this new breed of marines.

Not so much them in action, but how they came to be. What the experience like being tested and trained on Mars, being awakened every few thousand years for more training, then put back in to cryo.

Here's where I'm hoping you can help me Brothers.

So far I have read the following books, that feature Primaris marines, and contain small tidbits of lore.

Dark Imperium

Dark Imperium: Plague War

I know a great number of books have come out since then, and I am looking for recommendations on which books will help me in my search.

Thank you.

Edited July 28, 2021 by mel_danes

[cretacianborn]

It's been a while since I read it but I'm pretty certain The Great Work by Guy Hayley has some flashbacks of Felix remembering his time spent with Cawl when he wakes him up from stasis for various tests. It also has a lot of information on Cawl's background too.

 

Great book to be honest, I should go back and reread. 

[Ishagu]

"The Great Work" by Guy Haley

 

It details in great length both the history of Cawl and the creation of the Primaris. And not only that, but it completely justifies what he was able to achieve.

 

It's actually one of the best 40k novels. The audio book is also excellent.

Edited July 28, 2021 by Ishagu

[lansalt]

There is also "Wolfsbane", which features the early days of Cawl and Qvo as tech adepts and how the Heresy initially affected them.

 

"Sons of the Selenar" shows the origin of a key part of the Primaris genetic material.

[Ishagu]

Wolfsbane, unfortunately, is not the best 40k related novel. The Cawl bits are probably the most interesting bits in the novel.

[Ahrimanjjb]

Dawn of Fire: Avenging Son shows the grand reveal of the primaris to Guilliman first hand from the PoV of a firstborn Captain.

 

And then later on has a Primaris Lieutenat as a PoV character detailing his experiences being inducted into cawl's project, training, all the way up to him being reawakened and going on his first mission. Its ace

[mel_danes]

Off to Amazon I go. Thanks gents.

[DarkChaplain]

Between Dawn of Fire, Dark Imperium and The Great Work, and short stories like To Speak as One, you got most of the bases covered.

 

There's also In the Grim Darkness, which was a limited edition inclusion with one of the Dark Imperium books when they originally released, but I don't think it's gotten re-released officially yet; might not happen til an omnibus of the trilogy releases, if even then.

 

Wolfsbane is, as mentioned, featuring a prequel narrative to The Great Work; TGW basically picks up from where Wolfsbane ended on the Cawl plotline, by way of flashbacks. For character exploration reasons, I'd argue it's essential reading, because it not only shows him in his relative youth, but also his motivations, his experience with being in front of Horus, and also his weird sort of friendship with Qvo. If you don't care about the Heresy as such, it might still be worth picking up the mass market paperback and just reading the Cawl chapters anyway, skipping the Space Wolves ones - at the end of the day, Cawl's plotline remains rather isolated from that of Russ, with the touching points being more indirect.

 

 

I'd recommend going with Avenging Son, then Dark Imperium, To Speak as One, followed by Wolfsbane for sort of an extended flashback, and then The Great Work, which is currently the latest chapter in Cawl's story, as far as I remember.

[DukeLeto69]

Not trying to rain on anyone’s parade but personally I was not a fan of the whole “10,000 year old Magos secretly building the Primaris army”. Just struck me as “convenient”. From a lore POV I hated it.

 

However, I really liked the whole Rubicon concept and felt that had logic and provided real drama potential (so that is my head cannon now).

 

Got to say though that Avenging Son (I think) softened me to the Primaris concept, so maybe it was more the 100 year time jump and Primaris being omnipresent that I disliked most?

[lansalt]

Not trying to rain on anyone’s parade but personally I was not a fan of the whole “10,000 year old Magos secretly building the Primaris army”. Just struck me as “convenient”. From a lore POV I hated it.

 

However, I really liked the whole Rubicon concept and felt that had logic and provided real drama potential (so that is my head cannon now).

 

Got to say though that Avenging Son (I think) softened me to the Primaris concept, so maybe it was more the 100 year time jump and Primaris being omnipresent that I disliked most?

Certaintly it could have been done better, but that's the point of the books mentioned above: They flesh out Cawl's origins and the Primaris interweaving them with the Heresy and beyond.

 

In a few years more the whole thing will look like it has always been part of the setting.

[Ishagu]

Not trying to rain on anyone’s parade but personally I was not a fan of the whole “10,000 year old Magos secretly building the Primaris army”. Just struck me as “convenient”. From a lore POV I hated it.

 

However, I really liked the whole Rubicon concept and felt that had logic and provided real drama potential (so that is my head cannon now).

 

Got to say though that Avenging Son (I think) softened me to the Primaris concept, so maybe it was more the 100 year time jump and Primaris being omnipresent that I disliked most?

You should read the novels mentioned above. The whole thing isn't just explained, but also justified.

 

It's actually well within the parameters of the lore either way. Entire secret wars are waged on planets like Terra without any records existing.

Edited July 29, 2021 by Ishagu

[DukeLeto69]

I have read Wolfsbane, The Avenging Son, Dark Imperium, The Great Work (but not Plague War).

 

I understand the lore etc but am not a massive fan of the whole 000s of Primaris on ice idea. I far prefer the drama inherent in existing SMs having to cross the Rubicon. There is so much dramatic potential in this AND it would better fit with TT gamers gradually adding Primaris into their old marine armies.

 

Also not a fan of Cawl being around during the Heresy, it feels reductive to me.

 

Just personal taste and easy to head cannon away (but then I am the guy who conflates some of Dune with into the pre HH history of W40k)

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

Not trying to rain on anyone’s parade but personally I was not a fan of the whole “10,000 year old Magos secretly building the Primaris army”. Just struck me as “convenient”. From a lore POV I hated it.

 

However, I really liked the whole Rubicon concept and felt that had logic and provided real drama potential (so that is my head cannon now).

 

Got to say though that Avenging Son (I think) softened me to the Primaris concept, so maybe it was more the 100 year time jump and Primaris being omnipresent that I disliked most?

You should read the novels mentioned above. The whole thing isn't just explained, but also justified.

 

It's actually well within the parameters of the lore either way. Entire secret wars are waged on planets like Terra without any records existing.

The novels explain and justify cawls existence and skillset. But nothing really ever justifies the addition of the primaris.

[Ishagu]

They are completely justified: Their existence is explained (history behind their inception and creation) and their purpose is clear and obvious (a superior warrior to battle against an increasingly hostile universe and a way to gain an advantage over the heretics and traitors of the old Legions)

 

Some people don't think they are justified, but at this point it simply comes down to one question: Do you like them or not?

 

It's not what this topic is about, but it comes back to it a lot. Some people dislike them because they replace the old Marines, and by extension the old armies they build up. These same people have to get over it, because if they don't they can never enjoy the lore and collection aspect of the hobby again. Primaris are here, and it has now been 4 years. A person can think they aren't necessary, but the truth is that NOTHING in the hobby is necessary from a lore or model standpoint. They are a massive success, and they are here to stay.

[DukeLeto69]

I don’t play TT anymore (not since 3rd edition - I am old) but did the introduction of Primaris minis sort out the old “nothing is to scale” issue?

 

I don’t dislike the concept of the Primaris, I simply don’t like the “000s held on ice for millennia” concept. As above, for me, the rubicon is a far better dramatic and logical concept (if, for nothing else, enabling the combination of superior strength/speed etc with extensive/veteran battle experience).

Edited July 29, 2021 by DukeLeto69

[SkimaskMohawk]

Well at best you can claim they're a reasonable addition, but when you look at the novels in general there's nothing there that says "only Primaris could have solved this". It's simply weight of numbers and advanced tech, similar to the crusade it's mirroring.

 

There's no explanation why the tech isn't used by the firstborn; they could have done a Halo where mark X armour is too much for firstborn to handle so they need the metal sinews to control it.

 

Really the only narrative reason they exist is cawl got carried away and exceeded his mandate which iirc is noted on in dawn of fire. But theres nothing that justifies the over the other, intended options.

 

I like the models, I like the (well written) characters like Calder and Felix and the differences in mentality they can present in a story. But nothing justifies the need for their existence narratively.

Edited July 29, 2021 by SkimaskMohawk

[Ishagu]

Well at best you can claim they're a reasonable addition, but when you look at the novels in general there's nothing there that says "only Primaris could have solved this". It's simply weight of numbers and advanced tech, similar to the crusade it's mirroring.

 

There's no explanation why the tech isn't used by the firstborn; they could have done a Halo where mark X armour is too much for firstborn to handle so they need the metal sinews to control it.

 

Really the only narrative reason they exist is cawl got carried away and exceeded his mandate which iirc is noted on in dawn of fire. But theres nothing that justifies the over the other, intended options.

 

I like the models, I like the (well written) characters like Calder and Felix and the differences in mentality they can present in a story. But nothing justifies the need for their existence narratively.

In fairness there are very few things that millions of guardsmen, or sisters of battle, or an orbital bombardment couldn't solve.

 

As for the tech, this is the best thing about Primaris. It makes them distinct. And not just from other Imperium factions, it makes them more separate from Chaos Marines. The idea here isn't one that bows to the in-universe lore, but to the benefit of the range.

 

The days of good guys and bad guys who look the same but with spikes are over. Now we have the technologically advanced heroes and their hover tanks, and bigger mechs, vs the baroque traitors using the same machines and weapons from the great Crusade, but now corrupted by the Warp.

 

I NEVER want to see Primaris using the old vehicles, and I NEVER want to see Chaos Primaris. For the 1st time ever the two aren't clones of each other. Why would you want to make the factions less distinctive again? GW's technology and sculpting have evolved, and the models aren't held back by cost saving methods like they used to be.

Edited July 29, 2021 by Ishagu

[lansalt]

I strongly disagree, I can't wait for rubicon primaris tactical/devs/jumpack/terminator squads mixing armour marks and using classic vehicles

 

To me the actual drawback of Primaris is precisely their little visual connection with the previous 10k years of drama. Easy to fix with small conversions, but still it requires work instead of being a given.

 

And stubbers. Man I hate seeing stubbers in the new marine vehicles. They ruin singlehandly the Executioner and the Invitor for me.

 

(Oh, and soon or later CSM will get access to MkX armour and the new organs)

[Brother Lunkhead]

=][=

 

Before this turns into a full blown "I Love Primaris Lore" vs "I Hate Primaris Lore" and all the other bitterness that comes with it, let's focus on helping mel_danes with the task at hand. That is finding the bits and bundles of lore pertaining to the history of the development and training of the Primaris breed.

 

This is a fairly focused topic, but I'll allow some leeway in discussing this history. If you hate it....fine. If you like it....that's dandy too. However, phrases such as "I like", "I don't like", "justified", "not justified", etc., etc., make for poor discussion and generally just leads to straw arguments, needing to have the last word, going wildly off topic, which leads to cautions (like this one), hiding posts, more cautions.... need I say more.

 

So, let's reign it in, keep it focused, and keep it friendly

 

=][=

 

PM me if you have any questions or concerns. I am here to serve

[mel_danes]

Thank you Brother Lunkhead.

 

I'm interested in Primaris creation, training, and initial deployment.

The years on Mars, the methods used to indoctrinate them so far from the unique cultures they came from.

 

Other things I'm enjoying while on the hunt for their creation is the narrative angle.

The Un-numbered Sons are interesting to me as a tool of offsetting the original chapters specialties and concentrations, creating a skill pool among a squad.

The feelings of abandonment when they realize millennia have passed, and still they wait, why?

Meeting the home chapter with the joy and bitter disappointment that brings.

The return to darkness and ignorance the Imperium have embraced.

There is a lot these elements can bring narratively.

 

Again thank you for the book recommendations, and the content description for why a book is a good fit. There are so many books now.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I have read Wolfsbane, The Avenging Son, Dark Imperium, The Great Work (but not Plague War).

 

I understand the lore etc but am not a massive fan of the whole 000s of Primaris on ice idea. I far prefer the drama inherent in existing SMs having to cross the Rubicon. There is so much dramatic potential in this AND it would better fit with TT gamers gradually adding Primaris into their old marine armies.

 

Also not a fan of Cawl being around during the Heresy, it feels reductive to me.

 

Just personal taste and easy to head cannon away (but then I am the guy who conflates some of Dune with into the pre HH history of W40k)

 

I actually like that the primaris were on ice. Think of all of the times in the Imperium's history where they could've tipped the balance. That and the possibility of them never being activated if Guilliman hadn't gotten freed from stasis. 

 

Well at best you can claim they're a reasonable addition, but when you look at the novels in general there's nothing there that says "only Primaris could have solved this". It's simply weight of numbers and advanced tech, similar to the crusade it's mirroring.

 

There's no explanation why the tech isn't used by the firstborn; they could have done a Halo where mark X armour is too much for firstborn to handle so they need the metal sinews to control it.

 

Really the only narrative reason they exist is cawl got carried away and exceeded his mandate which iirc is noted on in dawn of fire. But theres nothing that justifies the over the other, intended options.

 

I like the models, I like the (well written) characters like Calder and Felix and the differences in mentality they can present in a story. But nothing justifies the need for their existence narratively.

 

I think they're going to avoid suggesting only primaris can do it. While I think at some point they'll start pulling non-primaris kits. I don't think it will be anytime soon, as long as they can sell firstborn they will. Once they can't sell enough of them that may change but we're getting more HH kits at some point so its going to be a while.

 

I actually think its more likely that 3d printing forces GW out of the miniature market in general before they squat firstborn.

Edited July 29, 2021 by Jorin Helm-splitter

[Ishagu]

3D printing won't destroy GW, just as regular printing doesn't destroy Magic the Gathering.

 

They'll have to adapt and evolve, but they'll be fine.

[Kelborn]

Just three posts above did Brother Lunkhead told you that this thread is not about "me like Primaris good" vs "me don't like Primaris"

 

Its about helping a fellow frater in diving into lore. That's it.

 

Keep it that way, eh? :)