Massed S6 to deal with Drukhari and AdMech (?)

[L30n1d4s]

Just based on what I have seen recently, S6 attacks are becoming more and more important in the meta game, as they give ways for Astartes to deal with Drukhari (wounding infantry on 2+s and Raiders on 4+s) and Admech (wounding Skitarii on 2+s, Kataphrons on 3+s, and Ironstrider Engines on 4+s).

 

 

Most Astartes weapons are either high volume, lower Strength (like Bolter weapons, flame weapons, etc.) or higher Strength, but much few shots (like plasma, melta, Lascannons, missile launchers, etc.).

 

 

Outside of the S7 auto-cannons (which only a few Space Marine units like Suppressors, Firestrike Turrets, and Invictor Warsuits have access to), perhaps the answer to AdMech, Drukari, and other similar style armies is massed S6, so where do we have access to that?

 

 

Well, Space Marines have the good old Assault Cannons, Heavy Onslaught Gatling Cannons, Krak grenades (which are difficult to spam), and Whirlwind Castellan Launchers (for indirect fire).

 

 

The only other option I can think of is Assault Plasma Incinerators, which have 3 shots at piece at S6 AP-4 Dmg1 (when not overcharged). This makes me think that mass Hellblasters might be the way to go in the near future.

 

 

Any other Frater out there have any alternative ways to deal with these two armies dominating the meta right now?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Snake Bites will require S8.

[Karhedron]

Plasma Inceptors have massed S7 firepower and AP-3 to boot which will make a mess of anything without and Invulnerable save. Against squads with 6 or more members they get 6 shots each. Against 1 wound targets, there is no need to risk overcharging either. If you want to go up against vehicles, try to keep a Captain nearby to minimise overheats.

[Brother Ramael]

I think the Icarus is priced ok for 6 S7 attacks, otherwise you still have the good old Helblasters.

If you think you can pull it off maybe try a gladiator, otherwise a double Kheres dreadnought could do ok for 12 S7 and a comparatively robust chassis.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Plasma generally seems to be the way to go. S7+ multiple shots.

 

My current list (not remotely intended to be competitive) includes a tact squad with plas cannon and plas gun. Raven with either plas or assault cannon turret, venerable dread with assault cannon, dread with MM, LS with ass cannon and HB, intercesssors w/ autos and AGL, HIs with autos and HB, plasceptors, assault squad, DC, SG inferno pistol and plas pistol, SP, HI captain, Libby.

 

So up to 24 assault cannon shots, 7 HB shots, and a good bit of plasma

[CCE1981]

I have a 2,000 pt list with 3x 10-man Hellblaster Squads and 3x dual twin Volkite Culveran Squads. Does that bring enough str 6 shots?

[Chaplain Augustus]

I play vs quite a few different armies and nothing strikes the fear into my opponents as much as massed assault cannon. Stalkers might be an option as they are cheap and have a bunch of autocannon profile shots.

[L30n1d4s]

Sicaran Punisher is also not a bad option... 18 S6 AP-1 shots at 36" can do some work. Edited August 1, 2021 by L30n1d4s

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Land Raider Redeemer puts out 12+2d6 S6 shots.

[Medjugorje]

What Marines need in this cruel meta times are rerolls to wound. Ultramarines have it just against one unit. Hopefully my BT get them as in Vigilus. 

[Djangomatic82]

1. 125 Pts 5 X Sternguard-T4, 10 Wounds, Sv3+ - Combi-Plasma 5-10 Bolt Shots and/or 5-10 Plasma shots,  24" S7/8 Ap-3 Damage 1/2, Transport options: Drop pod, Rhino, Razerback, Land Raider, Storm Raven

2. 165 Pts 5 x Hellblasters - T4, 10 Wounds, Sv3+ - Assault Plasma Incinerator, 15 shots, 24" S6/7 Ap-4 Damage 1/2, Strat options: Transhuman, Genewrought Might - Tranport options: Impulsors, Repulsors

3. 170 Pts 5 x Company Veterans + Storm Shields- T4, 10 Wounds, Sv2+ Inv4+ - Combi-Plasma 5-10 Bolt Shots and/or 5-10 Plasma shots, 24" S7/8 Ap-3 Damage 1/2, Transport options: Drop pod, Rhino, Razerback, Land Raider, Storm Raven, (Legends-Jump Pack)

4. 180 Pts  3 x Inceptors - T5, 9 Wounds, Sv3+, M10" Fly, Plasma Exterminators, Assault 6-18 Shots 18" S7/8 Ap-3 Damage 1/2, Strat options: Transhuman, Genewrought Might, Unyielding in the Face of the Foe, transport options: Deepstrike

 

Honourable Mention

5. 130 Pts 5 x Devstators - T4, 10 Wounds, Sv3+ - 4x Grav Cannons, 16-20 Shots, Heavy 30" S5 Ap-3 Damage 1 (2 if vs Sv3+), Transport options: Drop pod, Rhino, Razerback, Land Raider, Storm Raven

Edited August 2, 2021 by Djangomatic82

[Mandragola]

I’m not sure I agree with the analysis that masses S6 is the way to go. There are other options.

 

S6 D1 is not a great way to deal with vehicles. It just needs far too many shots to take them down. It’s also highly specialised to T6 and runs into problems when T7 stuff appears, as it regularly will.

 

Meanwhile for T3 infantry you don’t have to look a lot further than bolters. There’s more of a case for S6 now that orks are appearing, to be fair. A Gladiator Reaper looks a fair bit more interesting in this context. It's arguably good against ramshackle vehicles to just have D1 and hundreds of shots, I suppose.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Snake Bites will require S8.

 

I don't think that they will require strength 8. Units like plasma inceptors are going to have a enough volume to be decent. That said it looks like Drukhari signaled a power spike because the most recent codex all feel like they were balanced against the 8th edition marine book lol.

 

I’m not sure I agree with the analysis that masses S6 is the way to go. There are other options.

 

S6 D1 is not a great way to deal with vehicles. It just needs far too many shots to take them down. It’s also highly specialised to T6 and runs into problems when T7 stuff appears, as it regularly will.

 

Meanwhile for T3 infantry you don’t have to look a lot further than bolters. There’s more of a case for S6 now that orks are appearing, to be fair. A Gladiator Reaper looks a fair bit more interesting in this context. It's arguably good against ramshackle vehicles to just have D1 and hundreds of shots, I suppose.

 

Yeah I don't see massed str 6 -7 as the answer. That said its not like only running melta is a good ideal either I think we need strong mix between volume and the high strength stuff.

 

Personally I'm looking at Redemptors with Heavy onslaught cannons. I think plasma had a strong case earlier in the edition, but I'm sick of how random d6 shots can be, and feel that the onslaught will be better against SoB, Admech, and Orks.  

[Mandragola]

Those redemptors are a solid option, definitely. They’re pretty good against any target. Personally I think I’d tend to still run plasma on mine, but I play Crimson Fists and it’s one of the few times my super doctrine will actually come into play. I’d probably take three with each gun if I could. As it is, I think I’ll run stuff like invictors and a whirlwind for some S7 D2 (or sometimes 3) and quite a lot of ABRs to handle infantry. My crimson fist strat to reroll wounds against orks might even get used a bit.

[Rik Lightstar]

I played against the new Ork book in our local Crusade League so not usually hyper competitive lists.

 

My opponent took some of the SquigHog Boyz, two Squig Buggy Things and two Megatrakk Buggies* which is a fair amount of T6 targets and wounds to come up against in a 50 Power (1000 points approx) game. Certainly the toughest game my White Scars have had so far.

 

The Ork vehicles reducing damage by 1 really sucks the power out of a lot of your hits, especially when there's quite a few of them. SquigHog boys are T6 W3 4+/6++ with a boatload of S6 AP2 D2 attacks, they really can chew through Marines. Strength 8+ hits I believe negate both the damage reduction and the 6++ though.

 

I can see Ork lists being pretty popular for the next few weeks/months until the full codex release and subsequent FAQ. So I'd be tempted to look more for S8+ which will still be effective against AdMech and Drukhari but won't get quite so neutered by Orks.

 

Lightning Claws are still fantastic against anything up to T7 though 

 

*I may be way off on the names, two types of buggy, one had loads of blast shots and didn't need LoS for some, the other type had a heap of rockets.

 

Rik

[Djangomatic82]

I've been wondering what units we even could spam for S6 shots at a decent points threshold. All that come to mind are Twin AC Razerbacks at 125Pts, but for anything with Core, the best option looks like Venerable Dreads at 135Pts for BS2+, Duty Eternal, 6+FNP and Wisdom f the Ancients. Only thing I don't like is the 24" range of AC/TwAC.

[CCE1981]

I've been wondering what units we even could spam for S6 shots at a decent points threshold. All that come to mind are Twin AC Razerbacks at 125Pts, but for anything with Core, the best option looks like Venerable Dreads at 135Pts for BS2+, Duty Eternal, 6+FNP and Wisdom f the Ancients. Only thing I don't like is the 24" range of AC/TwAC.

You can get 30x str 6/7 shots from a squad of Hellblasters, for 330 pts. Yes, 3x 10-man Squads that you combat squad into 6x 5-man squads plus a Primaris Captain with The Vox Espiritum will run you just shy of 1100 pts, but you’ll have the board coverage and the shots with re-roll 1s against overheat.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I've been wondering what units we even could spam for S6 shots at a decent points threshold. All that come to mind are Twin AC Razerbacks at 125Pts, but for anything with Core, the best option looks like Venerable Dreads at 135Pts for BS2+, Duty Eternal, 6+FNP and Wisdom f the Ancients. Only thing I don't like is the 24" range of AC/TwAC.

onslaught Gatling cannons, plasma, assault cannons, and auto cannons all hit that S6/7 mark

[crazyterran]

Relic Contemptors with dual Volkite is 16 6/0/2 shots that do MW on 6 to wound. Can throw a CML on top too.

 

Fire Raptor is a large number of shots too.

[XeonDragon]

Whirlwind with the 2D6 S6, AP0, D1 weapon. 125 points, can shoot out of LOS :)  

[Tokugawa]

RAMSHACKLE will totally crush your plan. Try some other.

[Karhedron]

Ramshackle and Duty Eternal both seem designed to counter plasma-spam. GW made it just a little too good in 8th and rather than nerf it, have handed out antidotes to certain units.

[Djangomatic82]

Ramshackle and Duty Eternal both seem designed to counter plasma-spam. GW made it just a little too good in 8th and rather than nerf it, have handed out antidotes to certain units.

hmmm, i'm not too sure on that. iirc, doesnt S8+ negate ramshackle?

Plasma seems to be the only weapon profile we have access to that simultaneously circumvents Sisters negation of ap-1+2, Orks ramshackle and Base T5 infantry and DG's disgusting resilience by being D1 and ap-3. It just seems to be more of a question of what plasma platform fits into your design strategy and taste.

[L30n1d4s]

Also, massed Plasma (i.e. Assault Incinerator Hellblasters, with 3 x S7 AP-4 Dmg2 per model) also do quite well against the new T5 Ork Boyz and T6 3W Squighog Boyz.

[Captain Idaho]

I've been thinking this one over and I'm looking into Typhoons as a counter foil to Orks, Drukhari and Adeptus Mechanicus. 110pts for a unit that can leap frog the cover and put 2D6 S4 shots down table or (crucially) 2 Krak Missiles, plus a Heavy Bolter. It's not killer compared to some Codex books, but it's fairly survivable for it's cost and firepower combined on a fast platform that can hide behind terrain.

 

1 will cause some troubles for a Raider, 2 should make a mess of a couple of Raiders in a turn or so.

 

Unfortunately there are no solid hard counters outside plasma spam in Codex Space Marines, which have issues with range compared to the Raiders coming in but at least you can force an opponent to commit and hurt them for it.