Massed S6 to deal with Drukhari and AdMech (?)

[Karhedron]

I am coming around to the idea that Suppressors might be the answer, at least vs Drukhari. 100 points puts out 9 S7 Ap-1 2D shots with good range on a mobile platform. The downside is that moving and shooting involves a -1 to-Hit penalty.

 

If the squad manages to get LOS when stationary, they only need slightly above average rolls to down a Venom and 2 can probably take out a Raider. A Captain or Lt aura should be enough to tip the scales in favour of a kill.

[Ragnar69]

It's only 6 shots on the suppressors, or not?

[Valdr Fell-fist]

It's only 6 shots on the suppressors, or not?

They received 3 shots each in the last codex

[Captain Idaho]

Suppressors put out decent shots for sure. A little frustrating they can't move and fire as effectively for most Chapters, though Ultramarines generally will get the most out of them as can count as being in the Tactical Doctrine all game if needed.

 

Melta ceases to be dominant against such fast moving platforms as Raiders, but perhaps Attack Bikes are something we're overlooking. Attack Bikes are fast and can move out and spike Raiders ahead of them reaching our lines. They're not fitting the requirement of massed S6/7 though.

[Karhedron]

True an MM Attack Bike is not massed S6/7 but 3 of them should reliably 1-shot a Raider at close range. 165 points to reliable kill a 95 point is not too bad.

[Ragnar69]

 

It's only 6 shots on the suppressors, or not?

They received 3 shots each in the last codex

Wow, I never noticed. Makes them really interesting for 100 points.

[brother_b]

I’m concerned with T5 on basic troops like boys and DG plague marines. Also the ramshackle really throws a wrench (lolz) into my list building for my new White Scars army. I’ve got a lot of contemplating to do regarding anti tank and anti tough infantry.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I don’t think it will be a big deal versus Orks since the Green Tide strat is gone and the change to how morale works for them now… not nearly as much of an incentive any longer to run 20-30 man squads anymore.

Edited August 23, 2021 by Black Blow Fly

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Suppressors put out decent shots for sure. A little frustrating they can't move and fire as effectively for most Chapters, though Ultramarines generally will get the most out of them as can count as being in the Tactical Doctrine all game if needed.

 

Melta ceases to be dominant against such fast moving platforms as Raiders, but perhaps Attack Bikes are something we're overlooking. Attack Bikes are fast and can move out and spike Raiders ahead of them reaching our lines. They're not fitting the requirement of massed S6/7 though.

 

I think we get in the habit of min-maxing too much. I know for the topic we're looking for massed options, but I really think we should be looking to have a mix of high volume d1, a fair amount of d2 but not too much, and some Melta. I'm pretty excited that they're making the list building more interesting with these abilities I just wish the DE and Admech didn't feel so pushed.

 

I don’t think it will be a big deal versus Orks since the Green Tide strat is gone and the change to how morale works for them now… not nearly as much of an incentive any longer to run 2–30 man squads anymore.

 

I think you'll still see big squads, stratagems and powers like da Jump are so powerful when used on big squads. Its just going to be really hard to predict what sorta of build your going to see. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Big squads of boyz are gonna get nuked by morale tests… I really doubt you’ll see squads much bigger than 15.

[Djangomatic82]

I’m concerned with T5 on basic troops like boys and DG plague marines. Also the ramshackle really throws a wrench (lolz) into my list building for my new White Scars army. I’ve got a lot of contemplating to do regarding anti tank and anti tough infantry.

I'm beginning to think 3-4 Plasma Inceptors or a unit of rapid fire Hellblasters is the way to go.

[Karhedron]

Plasmaceptors get Blast so can really mow down large squads without overcharging.

[Captain Idaho]

Although expensive, Predator Destructors are potentially useful since they can generate a fair amount of dice that are all D2 or 3. They can also assist in killing infantry, which could be good utility.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Big squads of boyz are gonna get nuked by morale tests… I really doubt you’ll see squads much bigger than 15.

 

I don't think morale will be too bad for them. I mean if they are above half strength or near a unit that is your only looking at 1 + 1 in every 6 dying after a failed test. I think T5 more than makes up for any additional losses to morale. Granted you might not see them because Ork vehicles are really crazy, but I wouldn't discount it as possibility.

 

As far as predator destructors I think they're too expensive but I'm actually really curious to see how well they work in Thousand Son lists. Having a 5++ for free I think was one of the suggestions for fixing marine vehicles and we'll get to see if its enough in codex lacking fire power (it'll be pretty damning if Sons players still avoid them).

[Captain Idaho]

Another idea I've had is Devastator Grav Cannons which can put 16 shots on a target, accompanied by a Chaplain with Catechism of Fire. If you maneuver correctly you can potentially get all those lovely +1 to wound shots on a unit and still have utility with killing infantry.

 

In fact, the -3AP will do a number on targets. The biggest weakness to this is the Ramshackle, Disgustingly Resilient and Duty Eternal Rules, but the sheer number of shots should help somewhat.

[XeonDragon]

Suppressors put out decent shots for sure. A little frustrating they can't move and fire as effectively for most Chapters, though Ultramarines generally will get the most out of them as can count as being in the Tactical Doctrine all game if needed.

 

Melta ceases to be dominant against such fast moving platforms as Raiders, but perhaps Attack Bikes are something we're overlooking. Attack Bikes are fast and can move out and spike Raiders ahead of them reaching our lines. They're not fitting the requirement of massed S6/7 though.

 

I think Landspeeder typoons are worth a look at. For 270 points (so less than a squad of 5 plasma inceptors) you get 6 multi-melta shots on a very fast frame, plus 18 S6, AP-1, D1 assault cannon shots. So mathhammer tells me that on average those 3 land speeders, when outside melta range, will do 10.222 points of damage to a raider. So they'll pop one. Plus the S6 cannon is good for what pops out, and is good against T5 and damage reduction. Faster than attack bikes. 270 points of eradicators gets you more melta shots, less mobility and 18 T5 wounds. 270 points of these gets you a TAC rig, more mobility and 18 T6 wounds. 

 

Another option might be 3 landspeeders with multi-meltas for 210 points, so only 30 points more than 3 plasmainceptors and cheaper than 4. You get 6 multi-melta shots, great mobility and 18 T6 wounds. Against raiders you'd be doing 6.222 wounds outside of melta range, 9.778 inside. Plus it would help a basic bones castellan launcher whirlwind hits on 2s :)

 

No, what is interesting is that if you take the three land speeders (210 points) and the whirlwind (125, so 335) you get 12.055 average damage against a raider when devastator doctrine is active, 10.597 if not from outside melta range but inside Datalink Telemetry range. So basically you can pop one each turn. The great thing about this is that the whirlwind can then pepper what pops out. 

 

Not the most points efficient way of dealing with them, but I think the land speeders and whirlwind combo is not bad, can do other things than deal with raiders and is very versatile. I think the land speeder typhoons are really interesting, and have a nice load-out to deal with both DE and Ad Mech with the sweet-spot of having S6 and S6 shots on a mobile platform :)

 

Plus you can get a -1 to hit on them, and they can fall back and shoot with a stratagem. Nice. 

Another idea I've had is Devastator Grav Cannons which can put 16 shots on a target, accompanied by a Chaplain with Catechism of Fire. If you maneuver correctly you can potentially get all those lovely +1 to wound shots on a unit and still have utility with killing infantry.

 

In fact, the -3AP will do a number on targets. The biggest weakness to this is the Ramshackle, Disgustingly Resilient and Duty Eternal Rules, but the sheer number of shots should help somewhat.

 

I like this idea :) Also, you could put one multi-melta in there, and use the cherub on that. So 12 grav shots, plus 4 MM shots :D

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

 

Big squads of boyz are gonna get nuked by morale tests… I really doubt you’ll see squads much bigger than 15.

 

I don't think morale will be too bad for them. I mean if they are above half strength or near a unit that is your only looking at 1 + 1 in every 6 dying after a failed test. I think T5 more than makes up for any additional losses to morale. Granted you might not see them because Ork vehicles are really crazy, but I wouldn't discount it as possibility.

 

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any time they fail morale they’ll lose at least one third of the squad if it’s large and that’s significant.

Edited August 23, 2021 by Black Blow Fly

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

 

 

Big squads of boyz are gonna get nuked by morale tests… I really doubt you’ll see squads much bigger than 15.

 

I don't think morale will be too bad for them. I mean if they are above half strength or near a unit that is your only looking at 1 + 1 in every 6 dying after a failed test. I think T5 more than makes up for any additional losses to morale. Granted you might not see them because Ork vehicles are really crazy, but I wouldn't discount it as possibility.

 

.

any time they fail morale they’ll lose at least one third of the squad if it’s large and that’s significant.

 

 

If they're below half strength and not close to a unit that is above half strength (new mob rule) that's true, but combat attrition is just a 1 and 6 chance otherwise (not counting the model that flees). If they have a mob of thirty boys it would take a fair amount of fair power to get them below half. 45 abr shots would be ~30 hits, ~10 wounds. Even if they don't make save they'll have 19 boyz left and lose another ~3. That's not that bad I mean they would lost 15 when they were t4 before leadership (which was more brutal in 8th if they were in a situation where the new mob rule wouldn't work).

 

Between the Da Jump and strategic reserves they have a decent a chance a getting that squad stuck in before taking that kind of firepower.  

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Combat attrition is 1/3 chance unless they somehow ignore rolls of 2.

[Rik Lightstar]

Combat attrition is 1/3 chance unless they somehow ignore rolls of 2.

 

Only below Half Strength or with another modifier like Fear Made Manifest applied, otherwise if you're over Half Strength it's a fail on 1s only.

 

Rik

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

That’s what I thought, thanks.

[Charlo]

Ramshackle is really a Meta-defining trait.

 

When 2D weapons are the business to kill marines and dent vehicles, it really puts a stop to that.

 

Personally, I think its a bit too powerful and combined with the recent Ork codex buffs to the many buggies, it's very hard for anyone to take them down reliably. I don't think a lot of lists will have the tools for it.

 

S6/7 D1 seems to be the most efficient, but it's not a good profile overall.

 

Just watch a Knight player utterly stomp everyone now 

[Karhedron]

Landspeeder Typhoons are not a bad shout. Compared to things like Plasmaceptors and MM Attack Bikes they cannot be buffed by HQs or healed by Apothecaries. This may not be an issue if you have other plans for your HQs but it is something to think about.

[Captain Idaho]

A Techmarine can still grant them +1 to hit where necessary of course, though you might be inclined to give the benefit to another vehicle over a Land Speeder.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Yeah techmarines are solid choices, I run the primaris version in alot of my lists. I do think you need to have a decent amount of stuff for him to buff and fix. I don't really consider him unless I have 3 vehicles.

 

I typically give the +1 to hit buff to a Redemptor though. With wisdom of the ancients you can have 8 str 5 shots and 12 str 6 shots hitting on 2s re-rolling ones. I tend to have a second Redemptor nearby who also benefits from the stratagem.