A Passing Space wizard give you control of GW...

[Claws and Effect]

I'm actually going to work on some house rules for 30k to do more dynamic scoring like 9th edition while keeping most everything else intact.

 

The scoring system is the only part of 9th I actually like.

[Azekai]

I'm actually going to work on some house rules for 30k to do more dynamic scoring like 9th edition while keeping most everything else intact.

 

The scoring system is the only part of 9th I actually like.

Really...? Huh.

 

I am with Ishagu, the scoring in 9th is just... lame. I already found ITC to be ridiculous and game-y.

 

I play 40k to engage in fantastical space battles, not play a bean-counter simulator.

[Orange Knight]

I think the most beneficial change that GW could make would be to release all Codex books closer together, even if the actual model releases are still spread out over several years.

 

But I also understand how it might be detrimental. If the codex book is available early it will spoil the surprise and excitement of new models, and erase the sense of fun we get from guessing and hoping about possible future releases...

[Redcomet]

Yeah id probably agree 5th was the best edition of third wave 40k, in general things were getting better every edition there until 6th and 7th kinda sank it. Though yeah some of the later codexes were a bit much, thats when our gaming group pretty much switched to Heresy era so i can admit to being a bit out of touch with those.

 

Fourth wave 40k is better though (8th and 9th) though current Codex design is getting offputting :(

I agree about the codex design. They just seem lacking in fluff and hobby content. They seem thin. I know that is the pages needed for the crusade content, but come on Gw you make millions, putting 10 more pages of fluf and a handful of hobby content won’t kill the company.

 

I used to but all the codexes to, but now I will only buy the few I build models for.

[Claws and Effect]

 

 

I'm actually going to work on some house rules for 30k to do more dynamic scoring like 9th edition while keeping most everything else intact.

 

The scoring system is the only part of 9th I actually like.

Really...? Huh.

 

I am with Ishagu, the scoring in 9th is just... lame. I already found ITC to be ridiculous and game-y.

 

I play 40k to engage in fantastical space battles, not play a bean-counter simulator.

It's not perfect. But the way a lot of objective based missions work in 30k requires you to be holding the objective at the end of the game. Since not everything is a scoring unit all your opponent has to do is kill the units that are to completely prevent you from scoring any points.

 

Scoring points each turn for holding objectives gives you a way to at least hold your own where points are concerned.

 

I do think 9th edition scoring nets too many points at once though. If you fall behind early it's really difficult to come back from.

[Valkyrion]

 

 

I'm actually going to work on some house rules for 30k to do more dynamic scoring like 9th edition while keeping most everything else intact.

 

The scoring system is the only part of 9th I actually like.

Really...? Huh.

 

I am with Ishagu, the scoring in 9th is just... lame. I already found ITC to be ridiculous and game-y.

 

I play 40k to engage in fantastical space battles, not play a bean-counter simulator.

It's not perfect. But the way a lot of objective based missions work in 30k requires you to be holding the objective at the end of the game. Since not everything is a scoring unit all your opponent has to do is kill the units that are to completely prevent you from scoring any points.

 

Scoring points each turn for holding objectives gives you a way to at least hold your own where points are concerned.

 

I do think 9th edition scoring nets too many points at once though. If you fall behind early it's really difficult to come back from.

 

 

But that's the trade off isn't it? You can take lots of scoring units or you can take units to kill scoring units - dealers choice.

 

I also think it's less....realistic....to score points for take and hold if you haven't yet held it, so points at the end of the game make more sense to me. 

 

I quite like VP's for killing things though. It is war, after all, and I'd like to try a system whereby you score 1 point for each wound a model that is no longer on the board at the end of the game had. 

[Schurge]

 

 

 

 

 

Agree. 40K has gone too tournamenty, too complex, and is appealing/accessible only to people that have played it before. Our new players are struggling with the insane amount of rules.

40k is more dumbed down and streamlined then its ever been in the ten years I've been playing. If current 40k is too complex for some people I'm fine with them sticking with other games. I can't say though that I've run into new players that struggle with 9th edition and most of the people I meet up with every week started with 9th.

How many games of 9th have you played?

 

Beyond "I liked it when vehicles have armour facings" can you provide any evidence for this? I guess the core rules are a lot smaller, however the Codexes add a million layers of complexity.

 

5-7th ed: whoever holds this objective at the end wins

8/9th ed: progressive scoring over all turns (but not turn 1) conducted in a new 'command phase' at the start of your turn (apart from in turn 5, unless you go first), secondary choosing and calculation (including in turn 1), keeping tallies of models or units killed (first strike, thin their ranks). Compare and contrast how you win in 9th vs how you won in 5th or 6th edition, which was simply bring the most guns (c.f. 'Leafblower').

 

3rd ed - maybe 1-2 units per army had special unique rules (Death co, raptors, obliterators)

5 - 7th ed: one limited set of universal rules from which most units draw

8/9th ed: each unit has bespoke rules meaning lots more to learn.

 

7th ed: no command points or stratagems

8th ed: track command points, stratagems, unit or faction specific stuff like contagion, cabal points.

 

3 - 7th ed: hit or miss on a fixed dice roll, rerolls in specific, limited instances (master crafted, twin linked)

8/9th: multiple stacking or non stacking modifiers to hit and wound, including both modifiers to specific dice rolls (smokescreen) and modifiers to target roll (transhuman), unless you have a stratagem to counter the opposing stratagem (new thousand sons one)...unless your opponent has a stratagem to counter the stratagem you used to counter their stratagem (agents of vect, callidus).

 

Every. Single. Army. is getting bespoke mechanics, from combat doctrines, the death guard one, tyranid adaptive physiologies and now synaptic links, my Thousand Sons now have to track and spend Cabal Points in addition to unit points cost and command points. Blood Angels get their Death Visions, which some death company can get, others cant, but you can only ever use one, unless you use the special stratagem to use two, but only if no one else has used them yet.

 

Chaplains. They go from being a better commander in 3rd ed with zero special rules, to giving the unit they're with rerolls in combat from 4-7th ed, to rolling for prayers like psykers do for powers. They get 2 prayers, cast on a 3+, unless you upgrade them to cast on a 2+.

 

I...literally cant.

I literally can't. I am open to the idea that I've been playing too long but I haven't even brought a rulebook to my last few games and have never needed it as anything other then a reference for matched play missions. I play on average four games a month since December.

 

But yes, vehicle facings were awesome, yes they added to the strategic game at least at the time when armor value meant something (transplant it into 9th and it would just make vehicles even less useful).

 

40k has had bespoke rules for factions for as long as I've been playing and that was in addition to much more complex core rules, flyers, and templates. I wouldn't say 7th is overall better then 9th but if the number of rules you have access to is all that contributes to complexity it was a helluva lot more complex then 9th in that regards.

 

But this is all beside the point. The game should not be made simpler them it is currently, regardless of what may have come before. Hell, the core rules are bordering on boring at this point.

[Valkyrion]

The game had more general rules in previous editions, but Deep Strike was just Deep Strike, not the same thing worded differently in every unit datasheet that it applies to, for example.

 

The rules for flyers and the introduction of super heavy vehicles was overly complex and are much better now, and I don't like the warp charge system for psychic powers, but I think USR's were a good idea and everyone knew where they stood.

Something simple like army wide furious charge, or tank hunters, or stealth, did change the way the 'same' armies played and was simple to remember.

 

The game now simply involves too many dice. It's an odd complaint for a dice based wargame, granted, but as I've mentioned before, a ~ 250 point unit of termagants needs an average of 180 dice to be rolled to carry out its shooting action, more if it is near a tervigon. With that level of numbers you might as well just work on the balance of probability instead of rolling dice - their 90 shots hit on 3's, the 60 hits wound on 4's, the 30 wounds are saved on 3's, please remove your 5 of your tactical marines thank you. 

 

I haven't picked an unusual unit there either - an intercessor squad can put out 30 shots a turn, scourges can, 20 man skitarii put out 60 shots, necron warriors can put out 40....it's nuts, really and is only worsened by the overabundance of reroll auras. 

 

Once you add in stratagems, and clunky rules that mean your army does something different on a turn by turn basis and you might have rolled a thousand dice by the end of the game. You might as well put your minis away and just roll dice with your opponent 500 times each and the winner is the one with the highest score.

If you are rolling less dice then the result of each dice roll is more important.

[MARK0SIAN]

The game had more general rules in previous editions, but Deep Strike was just Deep Strike, not the same thing worded differently in every unit datasheet that it applies to, for example.

 

The rules for flyers and the introduction of super heavy vehicles was overly complex and are much better now, and I don't like the warp charge system for psychic powers, but I think USR's were a good idea and everyone knew where they stood.

Something simple like army wide furious charge, or tank hunters, or stealth, did change the way the 'same' armies played and was simple to remember.

 

The game now simply involves too many dice. It's an odd complaint for a dice based wargame, granted, but as I've mentioned before, a ~ 250 point unit of termagants needs an average of 180 dice to be rolled to carry out its shooting action, more if it is near a tervigon. With that level of numbers you might as well just work on the balance of probability instead of rolling dice - their 90 shots hit on 3's, the 60 hits wound on 4's, the 30 wounds are saved on 3's, please remove your 5 of your tactical marines thank you.

 

I haven't picked an unusual unit there either - an intercessor squad can put out 30 shots a turn, scourges can, 20 man skitarii put out 60 shots, necron warriors can put out 40....it's nuts, really and is only worsened by the overabundance of reroll auras.

 

Once you add in stratagems, and clunky rules that mean your army does something different on a turn by turn basis and you might have rolled a thousand dice by the end of the game. You might as well put your minis away and just roll dice with your opponent 500 times each and the winner is the one with the highest score.

If you are rolling less dice then the result of each dice roll is more important.

There’s definitely too many shots/attacks going on and there’s often too many stages in the sequences too. It’s got slightly better in 9th but you can still be faced with a situation where you have to:

 

Roll for the number of shots/attacks

Roll to hit

Reroll to hit

Roll to wound

Reroll to wound

Roll to save

Roll for damage

Roll for FNP

 

Granted you’re not going to have to do each of those steps every time but I also haven’t chosen a set of circumstances that I would say is particularly rare either.

 

I’m not saying I’d want it slimmed down to apocalypse levels but eliminating variable shots and damage would be a big help.

[MegaVolt87]

You know, it hit me like a thunderbolt today as I was eating some Macca's at lunch. What if GW only retained its big WH bunker type stores in capital cities of states/regions and moved to a franchise model for its other stores? It would allow entrepreneurs to move WH stores back into places like shopping centres, bigger shops in main streets, hire more staff etc. Also they would have their own sales targets etc so would be free to do something like say, include FW orders delivered to the store as apart of their revenues. Since GW isn't being smart by not owning its retail spaces and burning money piles to rents they could be funnelling back to themselves via a subsidiary/ holding entity,  independent franchising GW stores would be an interesting direction for the company. 

[AenarIT]

They like control.

The app(s), the warehousing software debacle, the animations, … It all points to one thing: GW likes to do in-house as many things as possible, to have control on those processes.

While it would certainly make sense to move to a franchise model, I don’t see them going for it.

You can’t have the same amount of control on a franchisee compared to an employee.

 

Another reason is that store managers are seen as entry level positions in the company, the first step to then move up the corporate ladder and potentially move to the Nottingham HQ. Without owning stores they’d have to rethink that model as well.

[Halandaar]

What would be the incentive for someone to run a Warhamer store as a franchise rather than just setting up their own FLGS and stocking Warhammer products though? 

[Redcomet]

What would be the incentive for someone to run a Warhamer store as a franchise rather than just setting up their own FLGS and stocking Warhammer products though?

The same reason opening any franchise store. An already established brand name. And usually some support setting up and running the store in the beginning.

[Special Officer Doofy]

 

What would be the incentive for someone to run a Warhamer store as a franchise rather than just setting up their own FLGS and stocking Warhammer products though?

The same reason opening any franchise store. An already established brand name. And usually some support setting up and running the store in the beginning.

Yeah but then the person would have to pay a franchise fee and have to answer to GW for certain things. I doubt people would want that.

[MegaVolt87]

 

 

What would be the incentive for someone to run a Warhamer store as a franchise rather than just setting up their own FLGS and stocking Warhammer products though?

The same reason opening any franchise store. An already established brand name. And usually some support setting up and running the store in the beginning.

Yeah but then the person would have to pay a franchise fee and have to answer to GW for certain things. I doubt people would want that.

 

 

You have other advantages with a franchise model though. A solid supply chain, marketing and promotions assistance, access to product metrics/ sales data, events management/ assistance, business advice, sometimes financial assistance even. A defined structure to follow running a business isn't necessarily a bad thing. GW is also building up its brand recognition with Joe Public + Goodwill as an intangible asset, thus increasing desirability to want to be a franchisee. Opening a franchised Warhammer store could mean more than an independent LGS in the scheme of a sale point/ store hobby space of GW products. It also is an exchange of ideas and practices with the main company, you would be surprised about how larger changes made by companies come from consulting/ feedback from their franchisees.  Its not an entirely a one way exchange as a franchisee. 

[Special Officer Doofy]

 

 

 

 

What would be the incentive for someone to run a Warhamer store as a franchise rather than just setting up their own FLGS and stocking Warhammer products though?

The same reason opening any franchise store. An already established brand name. And usually some support setting up and running the store in the beginning.

Yeah but then the person would have to pay a franchise fee and have to answer to GW for certain things. I doubt people would want that.

You have other advantages with a franchise model though. A solid supply chain, marketing and promotions assistance, access to product metrics/ sales data, events management/ assistance, business advice, sometimes financial assistance even. A defined structure to follow running a business isn't necessarily a bad thing. GW is also building up its brand recognition with Joe Public + Goodwill as an intangible asset, thus increasing desirability to want to be a franchisee. Opening a franchised Warhammer store could mean more than an independent LGS in the scheme of a sale point/ store hobby space of GW products. It also is an exchange of ideas and practices with the main company, you would be surprised about how larger changes made by companies come from consulting/ feedback from their franchisees. Its not an entirely a one way exchange as a franchisee.

True, but then you also have someone to answer to and can't make your own decisions for alot of stuff, like you would not be able to sell another arguebly more popular hobby like MTG or those other card games, or non GW miniatures games. Let's not pretend GW is this giant recognizable franchise like McDonald's. Here in the states it's not that popular.

[MegaVolt87]

 

 

 

 

What would be the incentive for someone to run a Warhamer store as a franchise rather than just setting up their own FLGS and stocking Warhammer products though?

The same reason opening any franchise store. An already established brand name. And usually some support setting up and running the store in the beginning.

Yeah but then the person would have to pay a franchise fee and have to answer to GW for certain things. I doubt people would want that.

You have other advantages with a franchise model though. A solid supply chain, marketing and promotions assistance, access to product metrics/ sales data, events management/ assistance, business advice, sometimes financial assistance even. A defined structure to follow running a business isn't necessarily a bad thing. GW is also building up its brand recognition with Joe Public + Goodwill as an intangible asset, thus increasing desirability to want to be a franchisee. Opening a franchised Warhammer store could mean more than an independent LGS in the scheme of a sale point/ store hobby space of GW products. It also is an exchange of ideas and practices with the main company, you would be surprised about how larger changes made by companies come from consulting/ feedback from their franchisees. Its not an entirely a one way exchange as a franchisee.

True, but then you also have someone to answer to and can't make your own decisions for alot of stuff, like you would not be able to sell another arguebly more popular hobby like MTG or those other card games, or non GW miniatures games. Let's not pretend GW is this giant recognizable franchise like McDonald's. Here in the states it's not that popular.

 

 

We don't have to pretend, GW is trying to go Disney and have been making moves- and just might pull it off in the next 5-10 years. I   on GW on the regular but even I can recognize they have the potential to become a household name, so a franchise model is at least a plausible option going forwards. Its where they cold go just by following the path they are on now with their expansion/ diversification. 

[Special Officer Doofy]

We don't have to pretend, GW is trying to go Disney and have been making moves- and just might pull it off in the next 5-10 years. I on GW on the regular but even I can recognize they have the potential to become a household name, so a franchise model is at least a plausible option going forwards. Its where they cold go just by following the path they are on now with their expansion/ diversification.

I don't think they will ever get there. My opinion of course. They are a miniatures company first, and everything they do around that is to get people into the marked up plastic. They can't market to children like Disney can which is a goldmine. There is two huge hurdles getting people into the hobby, time and money. When I try to get people into it, the lore is never an issue, people eat it up. It's the large investment in paints, tools and marked up plastic that turns half of them off, and the other half that has the money to throw around do not want to be bothered with clipping, cleaning, assembling, priming, painting and so on (and I would never recommend to someone to pay someone else to do any of that). I've been in the hobby since the 90's and I have absolutely zero desire to get warhammer+ and none of my friends or brother that play want it either. How do they plan on getting people not even in the hobby interested in it if they can't interest everyone already in the hobby?

 

Edit: grammar

Edited September 16, 2021 by Putrid Choir

[Halandaar]

The same reason opening any franchise store. An already established brand name. And usually some support setting up and running the store in the beginning.

 

The established brand name comes from the product though, not so much the name above the door. To borrow the McDonalds comparison again, GW effectively allows you to order Big Macs from them and sell them for whatever price you like in your own store. You still receive promotional items for new product launches and significant marketing material to let people know you stock Big Macs, and the significant benefit is you can stock Whoppers or Original Recipe Chicken Buckets if you want to and McGW doesn't have a problem with that; they'll still list your location alongside theirs on their website and marketing material.