"Locked in Combat"

[MichaelCarmine]

Hello there!

 

I had a game last week and ran my wolves with the pale hunters RoW - inevitabely mah boys reached close combat...

Usually i detach my IC from the units during the movement-phase. Then, in the assault phase, they (ICs) charge into combat first - locking the enemy in combat, then the unit(s) follows.

Now the Question, when the first unit reaches the enemy unit (locking them in combat) does that count for the "Fury of the Pack" rule to trigger, in giving every following unit that reaches the same combat to get 1 aditional charging attack... or am i wrong here?

 

'Cause my bud was claiming, that they would have already needed to be locked in combat for 1 round, for the RoW to trigger...

 

Rules as written, i think that it works my way...

Also would make sense looking at the name of the Rule (Fury of the Pack) - how did you guys play that? 

 

best regards,

Michael

[Lucien Eilam]

In the absence of a clearly written rule, I’d probably follow the pattern of Difficult Terrain and Ongoing Combats in Multiple Combats:
 

If a unit charges into a multiple combat which all the enemy units are locked in combat from a previous turn, the Initiative penalty for charging through difficult terrain does not apply. In this case, the enemy warriors are not set to receive the charge, and the unit charging through difficult terrain fights at its normal Initiative.

 
The intention seems to be that multiple charges in the same phase are really happening simultaneously and don’t count as locking for each other.

[MichaelCarmine]

In the absence of a clearly written rule, I’d probably follow the pattern of Difficult Terrain and Ongoing Combats in Multiple Combats:

 

If a unit charges into a multiple combat which all the enemy units are locked in combat from a previous turn, the Initiative penalty for charging through difficult terrain does not apply. In this case, the enemy warriors are not set to receive the charge, and the unit charging through difficult terrain fights at its normal Initiative.

 

The intention seems to be that multiple charges in the same phase are really happening simultaneously and don’t count as locking for each other.

 

So the rule is written as follow: "If a unit has one or more models in base contact with an enemy model (for any reason), then it is locked in combat..."

 

And furthermore: "...and cannot fire Overwatch if charged."

 

So taking overwatch as an example, if a unit is charged by multiple enemys, it can choose to fire overwatch once at one of the enemy units.

 

If, for example, the unit wants to fire at the second unit charging it, (the squad, not the IC) then it would have to wait for it, after the charge of the IC.

If the IC charge is however succesfull, it could not fire overwatch at the second unit, because it is locked in combat.

Therefore if that counts as being locked in combat, it would also have to count for the "Fury of the Pack" Rule from the RoW...

Am i right? xD

 

Atleast thats how i see it!

[Lucien Eilam]

 

 

So taking overwatch as an example, if a unit is charged by multiple enemys, it can choose to fire overwatch once at one of the enemy units.

 

If, for example, the unit wants to fire at the second unit charging it, (the squad, not the IC) then it would have to wait for it, after the charge of the IC.

 

If the IC charge is however succesfull, it could not fire overwatch at the second unit, because it is locked in combat.

 

No, that’s explicitly not how it works: you resolve overwatch after all charges have been declared but before you even roll to move anything. Overwatch fire can be resolved at the unit that will move in second, and it can’t be blocked by locking the unit with the first unit.

 

Again, suggesting that this is happening simultaneously, and you aren’t locked until after both charges are resolved.

 

I don’t agree with your interpretation.

[MichaelCarmine]

 

So taking overwatch as an example, if a unit is charged by multiple enemys, it can choose to fire overwatch once at one of the enemy units.

 

If, for example, the unit wants to fire at the second unit charging it, (the squad, not the IC) then it would have to wait for it, after the charge of the IC.

 

If the IC charge is however succesfull, it could not fire overwatch at the second unit, because it is locked in combat.

 

No, that’s explicitly not how it works: you resolve overwatch after all charges have been declared but before you even roll to move anything. Overwatch fire can be resolved at the unit that will move in second, and it can’t be blocked by locking the unit with the first unit.

 

Again, suggesting that this is happening simultaneously, and you aren’t locked until after both charges are resolved.

 

I don’t agree with your interpretation.

 

No, that's explicitly how it works - as written in the Rulebook on page 47 under "Charge Subphase":

 

"To resolve a charge, use the following procedure:

- First, pick one of your units and declare which enemy unit it wishes to charge.

-Then the target enemy unit gets to make a special kind of shooting attack calles Overwatch (as follows).

-Once Overwatch is resolved, roll the charge distance for the unit and, if it is in range, move it into contact with the enemy unit - this is sometimes called "launching an assault"

 

Once this has been done, you can either choose to declare a charge with another unit, or proceed to the Fight sub-phase."

 

Atleast if there is an Errata i don't know of, that is... =]

[Brofist]

I think that I'm with MichaelCarmine. Lucien Eilam is right about overwatch and the order of operations of course, but since charges are resolved one at a time on a unit by unit basis, once models are in base contact with each other, they're locked in.

[MichaelCarmine]

I think that I'm with MichaelCarmine. Lucien Eilam is right about overwatch and the order of operations of course, but since charges are resolved one at a time on a unit by unit basis, once models are in base contact with each other, they're locked in.

How can he be right about Overwatch and the order of operations? ^^'

He's clearly wrong. You don't wait for all the Charge declarations before you fire Overwatch and you can block Overwatch on a later Unit by locking the enemy Unit with the first succesfull charge.

The only thing that he got right (which i didn't even say otherwise) is, that you roll for Charge distance after Overwatch has been resolved. =]

 

Michael

Edited August 4, 2021 by MichaelCarmine

[Brofist]

He is right. About the order of the charge sub-phase that is: declare charge, resolve overwatch, charge move, etc. The catch is that its done per unit. So no, all charges are not declared and then resolved at the same time (I vaguely remember this in an older edition?). Anyway this is what let's you use the tactic you're asking about itt.

[MichaelCarmine]

Aaah, that's what you ment! Sorry, i misunderstood ^^

 

However i never doubted that, as i literally quoted that exact statement out of the Rulebook =]

 

Anyway, so the RoW seems to work the way that i thought it was... thanks!

 

Maybe anyone else could give me clearence for that? =]

 

With a few more, i could maybe sway even the most stubborn - should i ever meet them on the field. xD

 

Michael

[SkimaskMohawk]

It definitely feels like he was doing the same conflation Lucian Elam was, which is honestly pretty easy if you don't realize how often the rules have unique interactions. In cases like this you have to comb through the full phase/sub phase instead of relying on similar sounding rules. It's also a lot easier on a digital version where you can just search out the required term or phrase.

 

The clearest supporting rules to your maneuver are the Locked in Combat rules on page 49 (50 on the digital version) where it says the following;

 

If a unit has one or more models in base contact with an enemy model (for any reason), then it is locked in combat. Units that are locked in close combat must fight in the Assault phase. Units are no longer locked in combat if, at the end of any phase, they no longer have any models in base contact with an enemy model.

Now it appearing after Ending the Charge Subphase might make people inclined to think that being locked only comes after all charges, but the first sentence of the rule itself is pretty unequivocal; if you're in base contact you're instantly locked.

Edited August 5, 2021 by SkimaskMohawk

[MichaelCarmine]

 

If a unit has one or more models in base contact with an enemy model (for any reason), then it is locked in combat. Units that are locked in close combat must fight in the Assault phase. Units are no longer locked in combat if, at the end of any phase, they no longer have any models in base contact with an enemy model.

Now it appearing after Ending the Charge Subphase might make people inclined to think that being locked only comes after all charges, but the first sentence of the rule itself is pretty unequivocal; if you're in base contact you're instantly locked.

 

 

 

 

Thats exactly how i explained it to my friend! Thank you!

[Indefragable]

For what it’s worth, I think other Legion abilities out there like SoH or NL or UM have similar applicable conditions about “being locked in combat” and AFAIK it can happen in the same Turn.

[SkimaskMohawk]

For what it’s worth, I think other Legion abilities out there like SoH or NL or UM have similar applicable conditions about “being locked in combat” and AFAIK it can happen in the same Turn.

You're thinking of the Ultramarines interlocking tactics, the other two are only contingent on outnumbering.