Random thoughts

[Dominoris]

It's 7:43 and I still haven't been to sleep so I made a pot of coffee and thought I would ask some odd stuff.

 

 

Preachers start with a Zealot's vindicator.  Is this where you use the old Pious Vorne model?

 

 

I don't see any discussion threads about all our new units.  For instance, does anyone use Ephrael Stern?  For 120 points, you get mortal wounds in addition to regular attacks.   She comes with a side-kick/bullet-catcher with a 5 up FNP.  Would you drop her in strategic reserves or use the nice 8" move?  Can she survive long enough to dish out those mortal wounds?

 

 

It seems that with Celestine, Canoness and Imagifier models, getting 4++ is  going to be common.  Especially for Seraphim.  Then again, just how often do you fall back to the shield of faith save?  Maybe those points and CP spent on an Imagifier are better used somewhere else ....  Just my wondering, don't make too much out of that.  I am at heart a casual/narrative player but I still want to give someone a good game.

 

 

Celestians have need to have body guard rules for a long time.  They may actually see table time now.  If you are running a tricked out Imagifer, you need those Celestians around

 

 

Dominions used to be my head hunters and giant killers.  Now I am finding it hard to fit them in.  That is partly because I have stopped using my Repressors.  They are now on a shelf with all the metal sisters and old style vehicles.

 

 

I have played only a single game of 9th Edition with my Sororitas so far due to various reasons.  Nothing beats experience but until I get more I would love to hear how you are using the codex.

 

 

[9x19 Parabellum]

I share some of your remarks/concerns. I wish there was more discussion in the main thread(s).   To answer some questions:

 

1. Yes I belive the Vorne model is meant to be a Zealot's Vindicator.

2. I agree that Ephrael Stern looks pretty awesome.  I love anything that ignores invuln saves.  I have not used her yet as I literally just got the model several days ago (and games are scarce right now).

3. Only issue with all this is clustering affect. You're going to need to spread out. You won't be able to bundle everyone together to get 4++.   And if you sacrifice your scoring potentional in favor of durability, you're going to lose on points (and you're still going to lose models, because a 4++ on a 1w, t3 model is still going to die pretty easily.

4. I personally am still not sold on Celestians.  They still lack the melee weapon availability to make use of their WS and # of attacks, and they can only have 2 special weapons (which...great so can a BSS).  Personally I'd go with Sacresants who will hang around longer and do more damage, all for 1 more point.

5. How come? Dominions can still do work.  Gun saturation (4 models) and specifically the ability to stack Storm Bolters for the blessed bolts stratagem is gold.  Plus put them in an Immolator for the scout move, or a Share a rhino with some repentia to get it close up for a turn 1 charge.  Spicy meatball!

[Bonzi]

I think chasing that 4++ is a trap in the new dex for most builds. The only exception I would make is for a blob of 20 Sisters your pushing up the middle, but at the end of the day getting to 4++ requires a 3+ prayer roll from the Dogmata stacked with the Warlord trait (unless it's Seraphim or Zypherim). I think it's better to set all that aside and run a couple blocks of Sacresants who have the 4++ natively and who provide the bodyguard rule as well. The Dogmata can point at them and make them obsec if needed.

 

I love my dominions but I run them as Argent Shroud. Paired with a transport they can let friends get their free 6" move too. For me that's generally an Immolator. Between the two and rolling solid advance rolls I can have 8 melta shots on my opponents front lines turn 1 if I need. The Dominions are always a sacrifice unit but they generally trade well.

[Dominoris]

I still need to get a Dogmata model.  For this Saturday's game I will be using an Imagifier with Saint in the Making and a Preacher to play that role.  I'll probably put them in a rhino with either a squad of Repentia  or Sacresants.

[NKirkham24]

I absolutely agree on the Dominions, squad of 5 with 4 AC Storm Bolters are a staple of my lists. Admittedly i haven't played that many games due to the current situation, but they slot into all the potential lists I build. I would certainly take Dominions over Celestians at this moment in time. 

 

They are cheap, the blessed bolts strat is really good at taking down something tough (Blightlords being the target when i've been using it), and the scout move is useful too. As mentioned above, either to get an Immolator in flamer range early, or bring some friends along in a Rhino for early charging goodness. 

 

Sacresants are a totally different unit (when talking Celestians) and again I think they have a place in the majority of lists, having a combat unit that is actually durable is always nice. 

[Dominoris]

Too many choices :)

 

Unless I change my mind, this is what I will run tomorrow.

 

 

Adepta Sororitas Battalion Detachment ( 3CP - 1992PT )
SUB-FACTION: Order of the Bloody Rose

HQ
Celestine and Geminae Superia (0)
1x Celestine
2x Geminae Superia

Ephrael Stern and Kyganil of the Bloody Tears (0)
1x Ephrael Stern
1x Kyganil

WARLORD: Morvenn Vahl (265)
TRAITS: Righteous Rage

TROOPS
Battle Sisters Squad (140)
1x Sister Superior: Combi-melta
2x Battle Sister: Meltagun
7x Battle Sister

Battle Sisters Squad (140)
1x Sister Superior: Combi-melta
2x Battle Sister: Meltagun
7x Battle Sister

Battle Sisters Squad (125)
1x Battle Sister: Heavy bolter
1x Battle Sister: Ministorum flamer
1x Sister Superior
7x Battle Sister

ELITES
Celestian Sacresants (75)
1x Sacresant Superior: Spear of the faithful
4x Celestian Sacresant

Imagifier (50)
TRAITS: Indomitable Belief (Aura)
RELICS: Litanies of Faith
STRATAGEMS: Saint In The Making

Preacher (30)
HYMN OF BATTLES: Refrain of Blazing Piety

Repentia Superior (40) Bolt pistol

Sisters Repentia (112)
8x Sister Repentia

FAST ATTACK
Dominion Squad (100)
1x Dominion Superior: Ministorum combi-flamer
4x Dominion : Meltagun

Seraphim Squad (170)
1x Seraphim Superior : Plasma pistol, Power sword
2x Seraphim: 2x Ministorum hand flamers
7x Seraphim

HEAVY SUPPORT
Exorcist (180)

Penitent Engines (165)
3x Penitent Engine

DEDICATED TRANSPORT
Sororitas Rhino (80)

STRATAGEMS
Saint In The Making (1CP)

Total Command Points: 4/15
Reinforcement Points: 8
Total Points: 1992/2000

 

I am a bit abashed about the cheese (Three Named HQ characters?!)  but I am curious how they play.  Celestine is just a Seraphim buff anyway.

[9x19 Parabellum]

6 Characters is a lot.  You've got over 700 points in characters. I'd like to suggest trimming that down a bit.

 

Also (and this isn't on you), I'm already sick of the Bloody Rose / Morvenn Vhal thing and the codex only been out for a month.

[Blurf]

Too many choices

 

Unless I change my mind, this is what I will run tomorrow.

 

 

Adepta Sororitas Battalion Detachment ( 3CP - 1992PT )

SUB-FACTION: Order of the Bloody Rose

 

HQ

Celestine and Geminae Superia (0)

1x Celestine

2x Geminae Superia

 

Ephrael Stern and Kyganil of the Bloody Tears (0)

1x Ephrael Stern

1x Kyganil

 

WARLORD: Morvenn Vahl (265)

TRAITS: Righteous Rage

 

TROOPS

Battle Sisters Squad (140)

1x Sister Superior: Combi-melta

2x Battle Sister: Meltagun

7x Battle Sister

 

Battle Sisters Squad (140)

1x Sister Superior: Combi-melta

2x Battle Sister: Meltagun

7x Battle Sister

 

Battle Sisters Squad (125)

1x Battle Sister: Heavy bolter

1x Battle Sister: Ministorum flamer

1x Sister Superior

7x Battle Sister

 

ELITES

Celestian Sacresants (75)

1x Sacresant Superior: Spear of the faithful

4x Celestian Sacresant

 

Imagifier (50)

TRAITS: Indomitable Belief (Aura)

RELICS: Litanies of Faith

STRATAGEMS: Saint In The Making

 

Preacher (30)

HYMN OF BATTLES: Refrain of Blazing Piety

 

Repentia Superior (40) Bolt pistol

 

Sisters Repentia (112)

8x Sister Repentia

 

FAST ATTACK

Dominion Squad (100)

1x Dominion Superior: Ministorum combi-flamer

4x Dominion : Meltagun

 

Seraphim Squad (170)

1x Seraphim Superior : Plasma pistol, Power sword

2x Seraphim: 2x Ministorum hand flamers

7x Seraphim

 

HEAVY SUPPORT

Exorcist (180)

 

Penitent Engines (165)

3x Penitent Engine

 

DEDICATED TRANSPORT

Sororitas Rhino (80)

 

STRATAGEMS

Saint In The Making (1CP)

 

Total Command Points: 4/15

Reinforcement Points: 8

Total Points: 1992/2000

 

I am a bit abashed about the cheese (Three Named HQ characters?!)  but I am curious how they play.  Celestine is just a Seraphim buff anyway.

Stormbolter dominions are MUCH better than melta or flamer or holy Trinity. Exorcists are...bad but 1 for crusade is fine. MM Retributors are generally superior to the Exorcist at  actually killing stuff. Imagifiers aren't great, honestly. The strength or reroll aura is fine but generally not necessary and can similar boosts can be done better by a preacher or a zephyrim squad with banner. Your battle sister squads don't really seem to fit to me. Bloody Rose wants to be bringing Sacresants and Repentia, not so much regular battle sisters. Personally I'd drop all of them to min numbers and no specials and put those points into more sacresants.

 

Also, preachers get warhymn ONLY unless given a relic.

Edited August 15, 2021 by Blurf

[Beams]

Man, don't sleep on all flamer dominions. With the strat, they do 30 str 5 hits.

 

Stormbolter dominions do max 16 str 4 hits, less on average. Even with the mortal wound strat, flamer dominions will be better against clearing chaff units

[9x19 Parabellum]

I think there are other units that make better use of that strat though.  Retributors with heavy flamers for example.  No other unit can make as efficient use of the blessed bolts strat, though.

 

You don't use the blessed bolts strat for clearing chaff.  You use it against things like Terminators and Custodes.

Edited August 15, 2021 by 9x19 Parabellum

[Beams]

I think there are other units that make better use of that strat though.  Retributors with heavy flamers for example.  No other unit can make as efficient use of the blessed bolts strat, though.

 

You don't use the blessed bolts strat for clearing chaff.  You use it against things like Terminators and Custodes.

 

While Retributors are better damage wise, they aren't as likely to get into position turn 1. 

 

Dominions have a 6" scout move, and can disembark from a transport for an additional 3", so they can almost always hit turn 1 and deal tons of damage. Even if they don't use the strategem, turn 1 that's a lot of firepower, 3.5 (average hits) * 5 flamers (4+Combi Flamer) is still 17.5 str 5 hits, which is better than a Stormbolter. While storm bolters have better range, and better damage per wound, I still think Flamer Dominions are 100% worth it. Also, you can def take a squad of each.

[Bonzi]

 

 

I think there are other units that make better use of that strat though. Retributors with heavy flamers for example. No other unit can make as efficient use of the blessed bolts strat, though.

 

You don't use the blessed bolts strat for clearing chaff. You use it against things like Terminators and Custodes.

While Retributors are better damage wise, they aren't as likely to get into position turn 1.

 

Dominions have a 6" scout move, and can disembark from a transport for an additional 3", so they can almost always hit turn 1 and deal tons of damage. Even if they don't use the strategem, turn 1 that's a lot of firepower, 3.5 (average hits) * 5 flamers (4+Combi Flamer) is still 17.5 str 5 hits, which is better than a Stormbolter. While storm bolters have better range, and better damage per wound, I still think Flamer Dominions are 100% worth it. Also, you can def take a squad of each.

While I really like the idea of heavy flamer Retributors using the strat, they are much harder to get into position to use the strat than Dominions or Seraphim.

[Dominoris]

I'm thinking about putting a squad of HF Rets in a Rhino with SB Doms and see how that works out.

[9x19 Parabellum]

 

 

I think there are other units that make better use of that strat though. Retributors with heavy flamers for example. No other unit can make as efficient use of the blessed bolts strat, though.

 

You don't use the blessed bolts strat for clearing chaff. You use it against things like Terminators and Custodes.

While Retributors are better damage wise, they aren't as likely to get into position turn 1.

 

Dominions have a 6" scout move, and can disembark from a transport for an additional 3", so they can almost always hit turn 1 and deal tons of damage. Even if they don't use the strategem, turn 1 that's a lot of firepower, 3.5 (average hits) * 5 flamers (4+Combi Flamer) is still 17.5 str 5 hits, which is better than a Stormbolter. While storm bolters have better range, and better damage per wound, I still think Flamer Dominions are 100% worth it. Also, you can def take a squad of each.

While I really like the idea of heavy flamer Retributors using the strat, they are much harder to get into position to use the strat than Dominions or Seraphim.

 

 

You could play Ebon Chalice, like me, and get 16" on those heavy flamers.   Disembarking out of a Rhino gets you 9" move, +16" heavy flamer = 25" threat range.  That's turn 1.   If you're opponent deploys further back than that to avoid that, congratulations, you are pushing him out of objective claiming space and dominating the table.   Even without Ebon Chalice, though, that's 21" threat range.  Better yet, play Argent Shroud and advance with those heavy flamers AND still shoot them.  Or do like someone else said, and put 5 Doms and 5 Rets into a single Rhino and scout move that bad boy. (but prepare to get it shot to pieces if you lose the turn 1 roll-off).

[Dominoris]

 

Preacher (30)

HYMN OF BATTLES: Refrain of Blazing Piety

Also, preachers get warhymn ONLY unless given a relic.

 

That list was created with GW's app.  I started a different thread on it but that's kind of what I was saying.  I have to give the Preacher a hymn of battle or it throws an error.

/shrug

[Montford]

I have been using Ephrael Stern. That -1 to be hit and to be wounded is pretty good, along with the 5+ FNP as long as Kyganil is alive. She has a tendancy to survive longer than I expect.

 

Her sword ignoring invulnerable saves is quite handy, and quite annoyed a Custodes player

[9x19 Parabellum]

I have been using Ephrael Stern. That -1 to be hit and to be wounded is pretty good, along with the 5+ FNP as long as Kyganil is alive. She has a tendancy to survive longer than I expect.

 

Her sword ignoring invulnerable saves is quite handy, and quite annoyed a Custodes player

 

I'd love to have her in a list against Custodes.  Those golden fancy boys are soooo incredibly frustrating and annoying to play against.

[Joukernaut]

 

 

I think there are other units that make better use of that strat though. Retributors with heavy flamers for example. No other unit can make as efficient use of the blessed bolts strat, though.

 

You don't use the blessed bolts strat for clearing chaff. You use it against things like Terminators and Custodes.

While Retributors are better damage wise, they aren't as likely to get into position turn 1.

 

Dominions have a 6" scout move, and can disembark from a transport for an additional 3", so they can almost always hit turn 1 and deal tons of damage. Even if they don't use the strategem, turn 1 that's a lot of firepower, 3.5 (average hits) * 5 flamers (4+Combi Flamer) is still 17.5 str 5 hits, which is better than a Stormbolter. While storm bolters have better range, and better damage per wound, I still think Flamer Dominions are 100% worth it. Also, you can def take a squad of each.

While I really like the idea of heavy flamer Retributors using the strat, they are much harder to get into position to use the strat than Dominions or Seraphim.

 

The only real difference between the flamer dominions and the heavy flamer getting into position is an advance roll. The rets can ride with the dominions and If the argent shroud disembark happens to be faq'd there's no difference at all (provided you are willing to play an argent shroud detachment) Even without argent shroud, a 6 inch scout, 9 inch disembark move and 12 inch flamer range for a total threat range of 27 is enough to get into range of most screening chaff units, if deployed right.

[Blurf]

 

 

 

I think there are other units that make better use of that strat though. Retributors with heavy flamers for example. No other unit can make as efficient use of the blessed bolts strat, though.

 

You don't use the blessed bolts strat for clearing chaff. You use it against things like Terminators and Custodes.

While Retributors are better damage wise, they aren't as likely to get into position turn 1.

 

Dominions have a 6" scout move, and can disembark from a transport for an additional 3", so they can almost always hit turn 1 and deal tons of damage. Even if they don't use the strategem, turn 1 that's a lot of firepower, 3.5 (average hits) * 5 flamers (4+Combi Flamer) is still 17.5 str 5 hits, which is better than a Stormbolter. While storm bolters have better range, and better damage per wound, I still think Flamer Dominions are 100% worth it. Also, you can def take a squad of each.

While I really like the idea of heavy flamer Retributors using the strat, they are much harder to get into position to use the strat than Dominions or Seraphim.

 

The only real difference between the flamer dominions and the heavy flamer getting into position is an advance roll. The rets can ride with the dominions and If the argent shroud disembark happens to be faq'd there's no difference at all (provided you are willing to play an argent shroud detachment) Even without argent shroud, a 6 inch scout, 9 inch disembark move and 12 inch flamer range for a total threat range of 27 is enough to get into range of most screening chaff units, if deployed right.

 

 

Flamers are and always have been, terrible. Heavy flamer rets see some use now because with HT and S6 they can obliterate a big squad of orks or put a hurting on a medium-heavy target like a dreadnaught or buggy. Regular flamers have a niche of killing T4-5 1 wound models with poor saves, but even then they're only a bit more efficient than stormbolters and stormbolters have the option to Blessed Bolts, which is arguably the best stratagem in the army. There are very 0 situations outside of Ebon Chalice where I would take flamer doms over melta doms, let alone SB doms.

 

In Ebon Chalice, they're fine. The extra MW output+Range is enough to get them up to viable, even if Seraphim do tend to be the better delivery system.

[Beams]

 

 

 

 

I think there are other units that make better use of that strat though. Retributors with heavy flamers for example. No other unit can make as efficient use of the blessed bolts strat, though.

 

You don't use the blessed bolts strat for clearing chaff. You use it against things like Terminators and Custodes.

While Retributors are better damage wise, they aren't as likely to get into position turn 1.

 

Dominions have a 6" scout move, and can disembark from a transport for an additional 3", so they can almost always hit turn 1 and deal tons of damage. Even if they don't use the strategem, turn 1 that's a lot of firepower, 3.5 (average hits) * 5 flamers (4+Combi Flamer) is still 17.5 str 5 hits, which is better than a Stormbolter. While storm bolters have better range, and better damage per wound, I still think Flamer Dominions are 100% worth it. Also, you can def take a squad of each.

While I really like the idea of heavy flamer Retributors using the strat, they are much harder to get into position to use the strat than Dominions or Seraphim.

 

The only real difference between the flamer dominions and the heavy flamer getting into position is an advance roll. The rets can ride with the dominions and If the argent shroud disembark happens to be faq'd there's no difference at all (provided you are willing to play an argent shroud detachment) Even without argent shroud, a 6 inch scout, 9 inch disembark move and 12 inch flamer range for a total threat range of 27 is enough to get into range of most screening chaff units, if deployed right.

 

 

Flamers are and always have been, terrible. Heavy flamer rets see some use now because with HT and S6 they can obliterate a big squad of orks or put a hurting on a medium-heavy target like a dreadnaught or buggy. Regular flamers have a niche of killing T4-5 1 wound models with poor saves, but even then they're only a bit more efficient than stormbolters and stormbolters have the option to Blessed Bolts, which is arguably the best stratagem in the army. There are very 0 situations outside of Ebon Chalice where I would take flamer doms over melta doms, let alone SB doms.

 

In Ebon Chalice, they're fine. The extra MW output+Range is enough to get them up to viable, even if Seraphim do tend to be the better delivery system.

 

 

 

I like Flamers -- you don't have to. Their usefulness really just depends on your local meta and what you are using them for. Obviously, Heavy Flamers are better than regular flamers but are more expensive, and can't advance or use a scout move without more effort. I also prefer to keep my Retributors in Multi-Meltas for anti-tank, and split my dominion squads into one or two Flamers to clear chaff and the rest as stormbolters. 

 

 

Flamers also are a prime candidate vs Overwatch, and it makes it hard for someone with a melee army to try and charge a squad of Bloody Rose dominons on a side objective if they've got 5 flamers and 5 bolters to try and roast them when they rush in, and then can throw hands (ok, can almost throw hands) if they manage to survive.

 

 

The analysis ignores Saves, since neither Flamers nor Stormbolters have an AP modifier, so both are more about putting wounds out and forcing rolls rather than forcing fails from high AP.

 

Stormbolters and Flamers both cost 5 pts, so a sister with either will cost the exact same, so no need to weight output by points, which always just ends up needlessly complex and unintuitive. Both also want to be in range 12". 

 

With Blessed Bolts, 4 Stormbolters will average around 2-3 sixes, meaning an additional 4 to 6 mortal wounds. That said, you probably don't want to ever use this on Ork Boys or Guardsmen Squads unless you are very desperate -- it's better against Marines or Meganobs or Terminators or something big and scary since you can only do it once per round.

 

Vs Orks (Flamer)

 

Stormbolters average .87 wounds  vs an Ork, before Saves. 

--You Can only take 4 in a squad.

 

Flamers average 1.75 wounds vs an Ork, before Saves. This jumps to 3 if you use the "Max Hits" Strategem. 

--You Can take 5 in a squad (Combi-Flamer on Sister Superior)

 

Vs Guardsman, Sisters (Flamer)

Stormbolters average 1.74 wounds vs an Guardsman, before Saves. 

--You Can only take 4 in a squad.

 

Flamers average 2.31 wounds vs an Guardsman, before Saves. This jumps to 3.96 if you use the "Max Hits" Stratagem (Only needed if Conscript Blob or Max Sized BSS is on an Objective) 

--You Can take 5 in a squad (Combi-Flamer on Sister Superior)

 

Vs Necrons (Flamer)

Stormbolters average 1.32 wounds pts vs a Necron, before Saves. 4+ Save means two-thirds of a dead necron per stormbolter

--You Can only take 4 in a squad.

 

Flamers average 2.31 wounds vs a Necron, before Saves. 4+ Save means little over 1 Dead necron per flamer, 

3.96 wounds if you do the Max Hit Strategem, which can help clear large blobs of warriors before they get a chance to come back. 

--You Can take 5 in a squad (Combi-Flamer on Sister Superior)

 

Vs Marines (Stormbolter, but close)

Stormbolters average 1.32 wounds vs a Marine, before Saves. If a marine fails it, he is dead.

--You Can only take 4 in a squad.

 

Flamers average 2.31 wounds vs a Marine, before Saves. . This jumps to 3.96 if you use the "Max Hits" Stratagem 

--You Can take 5 in a squad (Combi-Flamer on Sister Superior)

 

Vs Custodes (Stormbolter)

...Use the Blessed Bolts strategem, and pray.

Stormbolters average .87 wounds pts vs a Custodes, before 2+ Saves... Meaning an average squad gets like .5 wounds in, 2 Damage per wound, so... 0 or 2 wounds. on average.

--You Can only take 4 in a squad.

 

Flamers average 1.75 wounds (3.5 average hits vs .5 chance to wound), but 2+ Saves means even a full squad firing does about 1.4 wounds.

Max hits boosts this up to 3 Wounds per flamer, 5 flamers = 15 wounds, but 2+ Saves means 2.25 wounds, so not even one Custode dead. 

 

Either way, being within 12" with either a Stormbolter or a Flamer Squad is what we call BAD NEWS , and uh, that squad is pretty much dead. Blessed Bolts will add 4-6 MW vs them, and it's the only real way to damage them with a dominon squad.

Edited August 26, 2021 by Beams

[Bonzi]

Both flamer and storm bolter dominions rely on their supporting stratagems to do real damage (max shots & mortal wounds). Outside of that they are still just sisters so they are almost always a sacrifice play because no opponent is going to leave them alive two turns in a row.

 

In a meta sense the mortal wounds are always better as they bypass the majority of defenses and they are always efficient because of the mechanics of mortal wound bleed over between models in a unit.

 

Past that consideration I think the use of Dominions is highly dependant on the Order and the army list composition. Argent Shroud can make big use of melta gun dominions, Ebon Chalice is going to get better milage out of flamers. A mech heavy list is simply going to want the dominions in the list to slingshot rhinos up the board to position other more vital units. In that instance the storm bolter is far and away the most effective weapon of choice for a squad that is playing delivery boy rather than payload.

 

It's a good problem to have a popular unit with good rules and a decent argument for most of their loadout options without being meta crushing must takes.