Multiple swings per attack.

[Dominoris]

This is an ongoing argument in my local scene.  Their are several units and weapons with a rule similar to: "Make 2 hit rolls for each attack with this weapon instead of 1."

 

Is there anywhere that this has been clarified I can use to show to my group?

 

If you aer not familiar with this debate, take for example a squad of 3 Arco-Flagellent with 2 Attacks each and armed with a flail that has the rule quoted above.  Can they cause 6 hits at most or do they basically get 12 attacks?

 

To me, I would roll 6 dice as the first swing and then pick up the misses and roll those as the second swing getting at most 6 hits ever.

 

Like I said, this is beyond debating at my local club.  I wish there was some where I could point to a clarification one way or the other.

Edited August 15, 2021 by Dominoris

[Marshal Loss]

There is a Rare Rule which covers this:

 

ATTACKS THAT MAKE MULTIPLE HIT ROLLS
Some rules, typically weapon abilities, tell you to roll more than one hit roll for each attack made , e.g. ‘each time an attack is made with this weapon, make 2 hit rolls instead of 1’. In these cases, each hit roll is treated as a separate attack that is made against the same target. As such, all normal rules that are triggered by attacks, or that apply to attacks (such as re-rolls or modifiers conferred by other rules) apply to each ‘hit roll’. Note that these additional attacks do not themselves result in more hit rolls being made.

 

You can find it in the official FAQ on page 5.

[Dominoris]

So ... each hit roll is a seperate attack and no double dipping.  That would mean 12 attacks total in my example above.

[Lord Raven 19]

Correct

[Valkyrion]

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/369438-attacks-vs-hits/

 

I asked a similar (the same?) question earlier this year, and consensus was that 'make 2 hit rolls' is the same effect as 'make 2 attacks with'. 

[Xenith]

This was an issue in my local club also - they thought that you still get 6 attacks, you just get to make 2 hit rolls for each to get 2 chanced to hit.

 

It's poorly worded, for sure. 

 

It's covered in the rule book, as above, that each hit roll becomes a separate attack, essentially like an assault 2 ranged weapon lets you make 2 hit rolls per attack. I might just suggest they clean this whole mess up by adding in a Melee, melee 2, melee 3 category like assault, assault 2 etc. 

[Valkyrion]

if they added Melee, Melee 2, Melee 3 etc then the Attack stat would become redundant. 

 

I'm not against the idea, just pointing out that as we don't have a Ranged Attack stat, the only purpose of the Attack stat is to identify how many Melee Attacks a model makes. 

[Slasher956]

That just opens a bigger can of worms...
 

lets take a terminator sgt with power sword & power fist - currently you can make his 3 attacks with 1 weapon or other or split them 2 & 1 how you choose... IF you go melee X then you are removing the ability of the player to choose.

The current wording works for people who skim read the rulebook because they've been playing for years AND those who havent played at all yet (because they read all the words of the rulebook before playing)

[Xenith]

if they added Melee, Melee 2, Melee 3 etc then the Attack stat would become redundant. 

 

I'm not against the idea, just pointing out that as we don't have a Ranged Attack stat, the only purpose of the Attack stat is to identify how many Melee Attacks a model makes. 

 

Yes, while there isn't a ranged attack stat baked into their profile, there is a rulebook rule placing a limit on the number and type of weapons a model may shoot. 

 

Attack stat in no way becomes redundant - as I said, in shooting a model can make an attack with each ranged weapon it is allowed to, the number of dice rolled is then modified by the stats of the weapon.

 

In melee, a model can make a number of attacks according to it's profile, with the number of dice rolled then being modified by the weapon. 

 

 

lets take a terminator sgt with power sword & power fist - currently you can make his 3 attacks with 1 weapon or other or split them 2 & 1 how you choose... IF you go melee X then you are removing the ability of the player to choose.

 

Except that's not what I said at all. Sword would be S+1, type melee 1, fist would be also melee 1. It's equipped with both weapons. so can choose as normal, and makes a single to hit roll for each attack allocated to that weapon.

 

A knight titan with titanic feet and reaper chainsword. Reaper chainsword would be melee 1, while titanic feet would be Melee 3, and you can delete the text "Make 3 hit rolls for each attack made with this weapon, instead of 1."

 

Knight has 4 A. You allocate 3A to the reaper and 2A to the feet. As the reaper is melee 1, you make one hit roll per attack. As the feet are Melee 3, you make 3 hit rolls per attack.

 

It's functionally identical to the system now, it just cuts down on redundant wording. 

 

 

 

 

The current wording works for people who skim read the rulebook because they've been playing for years AND those who havent played at all yet (because they read all the words of the rulebook before playing)

 

Agree.

[Valkyrion]

 

if they added Melee, Melee 2, Melee 3 etc then the Attack stat would become redundant. 

 

I'm not against the idea, just pointing out that as we don't have a Ranged Attack stat, the only purpose of the Attack stat is to identify how many Melee Attacks a model makes. 

 

Yes, while there isn't a ranged attack stat baked into their profile, there is a rulebook rule placing a limit on the number and type of weapons a model may shoot. 

 

Attack stat in no way becomes redundant - as I said, in shooting a model can make an attack with each ranged weapon it is allowed to, the number of dice rolled is then modified by the stats of the weapon.

 

In melee, a model can make a number of attacks according to it's profile, with the number of dice rolled then being modified by the weapon. 

 

 

 

Apologies, I didn't elaborate on my point (mainly because I thought I'd be taking the thread off topic), but I meant that if you made it Melee 1, Melee 2 etc and made it so that you attacked with each melee weapon in the same way as shooting then the Attack stat would become redundant.