Anyone fought the new Thousand Sons?

[Bulwyf]

I had a game against a friend's TS army this past weekend. We both agreed to bring casual lists so this isn't top tier tournament lists.

 

I had Ragnar, 6 BGV in an Impulsor, one Redemptor, one Leviathan with dual grav bombard, one invictor warsuit with flamer, one techmarine, primaris chaplain on bike, 20 intercessors, 5 assault WG termies (power fist/SS) and one squad of outriders.

 

Yes, I know this isn't a great list but it created a fun game and that's frankly all that matters.

 

He had Ahriman, one exalted sorc, one chaos land raider, 15 scarab terminators and 3 squads of Rubricons that were I think all 10 man squads. 

 

In short, I won the game although it was close. He conceded but it could also have ended in a draw potentially. He had to leave so we just called it where it was at. I do think I would have won regardless.

 

The TS are nasty. He advised me not to bring a psyker because their new codex has a secondary that is guaranteed 15 VP for them if you bring even one psyker against them. Each round if TS kills more models in psychic phase than the opponent you get 3 VP. 5 turns x 3 = 15 VP easily maxed out. The only way to keep the TS opponent from taking that is to not run a pysker.

Which meant in this game he got free casts. And brother do they hurt. They have their version of death hex which removes invuln saves. They have something like a pyschic mortar round that does mortal wounds on one  unit and splash mortal wounds on units near it. He buffed his 10 man terminators with two buffs one that gave them +1 to hit and +1 str to shooting weapons. And they have the old power that gives +1 to invuln saves so his army wide 5++ becomes 4++ to his 10 man termie squad.

 

Oh did I mention their terminators are objective secured? Yeah. Imagine what a buffed 10 man squad sitting on an objective with 3 wounds and 4++ and a 2+ that still gets +1 to armor if the damage of the weapon shooting at them is just 1 damage. It is nasty. I could easily see someone taking three 10 man squads of scarab terminators and being incredibly hard to move off an objective. Toss in something for anti tank like a FW dread and you are going to be hell to play.

 

He has 35 terminators but since this was a friendly game he only brought 15. That's the only reason my list won that game. There was no way I could deal with 30 or 35 terminators with that list. My guys won because I got incredibly lucky with save rolls on my Leviathan that kept pounding his units until I cleared enough that a Ragnar charge with the BGV would have cleared an entire side of the table.

 

So how have my brothers in the Rout done against our most nefarious foes? 

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I haven't played against them with my wolves yet... but I have played a bit with them.

 

1) wrath of magnus - the secondary where they get 3 vp if they kill more models with psychic powers is really good, its not 15 points automatic though. In my game I scored 9 with it, I was playing against DG who have good psychic characters in all fairness. I went first and wasn't able to kill any models on turn 1 (took some wounds off a drone), and then later in the game I wasn't able to kill a vehicle so he was able to match my total (I did bring some models back instead of using a smite but I needed to take a primary and I'll trade 3 points for 5). I do think its really powerful but every fraction has one at that level.

 

That said if you don't have a psycher you get abhor the witch, which is going to be a strong choice against sons and doesn't prevent you from taking Oath. So if TS become popular its not a bad counter.

 

2) Termies are good but I don't know if I could justify spending that many points on them. They're also slow, so I'd need to deep strike them, and I think I'd be relying on 9" charges without a good way to boost the odds of making it. With good screening you'd probably get too much of a lead on the primary for me too catch up. I do plan on running 20 of them if I decide to play sons competitively 1 group of 10 that's buffed, and 2 squads of five. As far as strategy is concerned I really think they're going to struggle against dreads and strikes last effects. I'd consider playing around the big squad if you can, its not that huge of threat shooting.

 

My main concern with TS is that there going to be one of those armies that is really good when you set up a game with one of your buddies, and struggle when your at a tournament. I did ok against infantry heavy DG I couldn't beat a demon engine list. I also had a one bad phase that lost me a close game, and I doubt people are going to be able to go 5 matches without dropping the ball a few times.

 

Edit: Hounds of Morkai are a pretty good answer to TS our characters are really important and can't get a permanent 3++ anymore.

Edited August 24, 2021 by Jorin Helm-splitter

[TiguriusX]

got a game against them on Sunday

 

magnus is in the list

 

I have no idea what their new tricks are and expect a rough introduction

 

I usually have to play an army a few times before I know how to approach them properly

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

I picked up Thousand sons as my new project for when i need a break from painting Grey. (Might as well have our ancient enemy in my collection to stage battles at home) Looking through the dex and chatting on their forum watch out for the following:

 

Flamer rubric squads. These are a point and click delete unit for pretty much every Infantry unit in the game. And the can move alot faster than you think or they can deep strike.

 

Lots of movement/ redeploy shenanigans. If they go cult of Duplicity they have a psychic power that will let then pick up a unit and put it somewhere else on the board. They also have a redeploy the warlord and d3 units warlord trait. Plus a warptime type psychic power and a deep strike strat. They can really get around.

 

As I'm sure you expect they have buckets of mortal wounds to sling about too.

 

All that said they lack access to alot of anti tank weapons. Mortal wounds and Daemon engines are their main acces to that so if you bring some extra armor and focus down daemon engines early you might get an edge over them.

[Tokugawa]

Bring culexus. Then TSons opponent can't pick wrath of Magnus for secondary, and you can pick Abhor.

 

If that is not enough, then hounds of Morkai, then Galthalamor…

[TiguriusX]

Played a game...was brutal

 

Made me miss my 8th edition psychic buzz saw list using Njal + 2 RP for the living lightning stratagem

 

 

Basically the Tsons can pump out a shooting phase worth of damage in psychic and chew through anything they see

 

When that is done they can shoot with their good AP guns

 

And their terminators are OBSEC...told my opponent I would have 20 of those if I made a list

 

 

Not sure if custom tailoring a list to counter them is required or just more experience playing

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I think TS are going to be a nightmare for other marine armies. The more elite an army is the stronger the mortal wounds feel and the better rubrics are (ap -2 is nasty). The codex actually feels over tuned towards doing well against other marine armies. DG have been a really interesting matchup for TS so far because I handle the plague marines and terminators better than with my space wolves, but Poxwalkers have been really annoying. So I think to a degree right now your opponents are list tailoring against you, not intentionally but because that's the strength of book.

 

I think the real test for TS is going be how do you handle Admech, DE, SoB, and Orks while maintaining that edge against marines. I'm not entirely convinced that they have the tools to do so against DE*, and I think SoB are going to be a tough one because their psychic defense is really strong. How they adjust for those matchups is going to be key to finding where they fit in the meta. 

 

I also plan on trying out Hounds of Morkai. I haven't ran them because Reivers stink compared to our troop choices, but they're cheap have some deployment tricks, and are amazing against psychers. So I think the upside in the games they're relevant will make up for the ones that they're a subpar choice in.

 

*This isn't a bad thing DE need more nerfs, win rates over 60% just aren't healthy and if TS could just handle them they'd be the next army in that club.

[Bulwyf]

I made a list for my friend using 30 TS termies. He loved it but did some tweaking reducing it to 25 termies and putting in more characters. I think GW went too far giving their termies obj secured. There is no way in hell if I played TS I wouldn't run 25 of them. Screw the Rubric marines or the goat people. Just squat down 10 man squads on two objectives and dare someone to come at them. Not only is the pysker phase brutal but their shooting is S tier against marine armies. -2 AP is just obnoxious to deal with. 

 

That army and the new GK are what hounds of morkai only exist for in a list. The TS secondary that gives them free 15/15 points if you bring even one pysker is enough to keep you from bringing a single one in your army. That secondary IMO is also too much since it basically either prohibits the opponent from bringing any pyskers or if they do it gives the TS player free 15/15 secondary.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

There are some answers to Wrath of Magnus depending on your army build that really keep it from just being an automatic 15. I'd say its more of an automatic 9, easy 12, fairly easy 15. 

 

The first answer is just running some vehicles, and not deploying your infantry on the edge of your DZ in LOS. Most psychic powers have a range of 18 so if they go first they will have to move towards you, and even then will probably have to use cabal points to increase range or the Cult of duplicity power to teleport a unit. Regardless your not going to have worry about a ton of smites and a doom bolt on turn 1 unless you decided to run up into it. They have to target the closet unit so use that to your advantage. Against Sons you really want to come in one big wave and try to overwhelm them so being conservative on turn 1 isn't a bad strategy.

 

The second answer was brought up earlier don't take a psycher. Sons go from having a great secondary to a mid level one in mutate landscape, and their opponent gets Abhor the witch.... the best base secondary objective in the game according to the data goonhammer uses in their meta watch articles.  Its a small sample size but wrath of magnus is at 9.3 (it was selected 39 times) abhor the witch averages 8.9. That's rough, more so because Oath of Moment averages 10 (mutate landscape is at 8.3 which is respectable). So if your playing more casual games and feel that its being warped just tell your opponent you'll stop taking a psycher if he picks it every time or offer not to take Oath (which is pretty busted).