Azrael's Moving Castle - 2k for "placements" tournament

[Berzul]

Hey everyone. 

 

So, I was making a 1k list for a small scale tournament in my local store that is coming up soon, here, when a second date got announced on the same store. Now for a 2k tournament, which will have a placement round of games, and then the actual tournament.

 

I want to try my hand at this event, so I took to writting up a list for it. I'd love to get some constructive feedback on my ideas, here, if any of you have the time.

 

The main idea behind the list is to start a big squad of bikes as a forward strike unit to quickly make its way up to the center of the board through a pre-game move or a first turn move. Use it to hold the center for a couple of rounds while an Infantry Castle made up of Azrael and some infantry makes its way there, to claim the center for the second half of the game; freeing the bikes to stretch around the board. This would be supported with a moving castle of black knights and attack bikes, led by a team of one captain and one lieutenant, who can maneuver around the board. While this is happening, two full-man squads of Tactical Marines claim objectives and camp out. Finally, it adds a small unit of Deathwing Terminators to make use of Deathwing Assault for some backfield disruption.

 

The list itself is as follows:

 

Deathwing Detachment

Patrol Detachment

2000 points

12 CP (12 + 2 for Azrael - 2 for the Patrol Detachment)

 

 

+ HQs+ 

Azrael

+ Warlord (Brilliant Strategist)

 

Company Master in Jump Pack

+ Thunder Hammer and Master Crafted Bolter

 

Lieutenant in Jump Pack

+ Teeth of Terra and Plasma Pistol

 

+ TROOPS +

10-man Tactical Squad

+ Combi Plasma

+ Plasma Gun

+ Plasma Cannon

 

10-man Tactical Squad

+ Combi Plasma

+ Plasma Gun

+ Plasma Cannon

 

+ ELITES +

5-man Deathwing Terminator Squad

+ Storm Bolters

 

5-man Ravenwing Black Knights Squad

+ Plasma Talons

 

Dreadnought

+ Multi Melta

+ Power Fist with Storm Bolter

+ Rites of Initiation

 

Apothecary

 

+ FAST ATTACK +

5-man Ravenwing Bike Squad

+ Storm Bolter Sergeant

+ Twin Boltguns

 

3-man Ravenwing Attack Bike Squad

+ Multi Melta

+ Multi Melta

+ Multi Melta

 

+ HEAVY SUPPORT +

10-man Devastator Squad

+ Heavy Bolter

+ Missile Launcher

+ Missile Launcher

+ Missile Launcher

+ Armorium Cherub

 

 

This should add up to 2000 points exactly. With Azrael, the Deathwing Terminators, the Ravenwing Black Knights, and the Dreadnought with Rites of Initiation, going together in one Deathwing Detachement (since they are all Inner Circle), and then the Company Master, the Lieutenant, the 2 Tactical Squads, the Apothecary, the Ravenwing Bikers, the Attack Bikes, and the Devastator Squad, all going into the Patrol Detachment.

 

I am still to play around a bit with the finer points of the list, as well as with second or third relics, second warlord traits, etc. 

 

Overall, though, I am trying to picture this list on the board per its designed purpose. 

 

1) Five bikers using The Hunt, Skilled Raiders, and Jink, to speed forward to the center of the board, and hold it, while the castle catches up to them.

 

2) Devastators under a 4++/6+++ bubble, with full rerrolls to hit and rerrolls of 1 to wound due to Wisdom of the Ancients, marching up the board for the first half of the game to claim the center. 

 

3) Full-man Tactical Squads combat squadding into firing-teams and action-teams. Splitting 2 combat squads a group, over the objectives of the board. 

 

4) The Ravenwing bikes acting as a strong hitting castle on wheels with which to cause damage to the enemy. Combining plasma and melta under dual rerroll 1s auras. Also, not entirely the one way to get some good D3 plasma out, since if the bikes get focused fired upon, I still have the two tactical plasma teams to serve as secondary plasma dealers to use WotDA on them

 

5) The Deathwing acting as a turn 2/turn 3 disruption unit. Small, easy to fit in deepstrikes, with Objective Secured to claim a forward objective, and capable of combining Fury of the First and Deathwing Assault for a good light infantry killing squad. 

[Vulshra]

I like the idea, but I question the 10 devastators, given the apothecary in the castle. Have you considered reducing the squad size to get more terminators? They given they have obsec and storm bolters always rapid firing, you shouldn't lose much anti infantry, and gain more punch from the power fist

[Berzul]

Thing is, if I cut down the size of the Devastator Squad, that causes three effects. 

 

The first is that you free up 90 points, which is worth only 2 Deathwing Terminators (and I could not bring them as a Command Squad, because I'd still be some points short). Which would in turn brings up the size of my one squad to 7, which is a more difficult number of models to deal with. Both in terms of placing them on the board on a deepstrike, as well as in terms of CP expenditure for some stratagems. 

 

The second is that with a squad of just 5 marines on the Devastator Squad, even with a 3+/4++/6+++ save per model, getting blown away in one turn is a LOT easier. I fear that my Apothecary might not even have a chance to keep the guys coming back after T1 or T2. 

 

The third is that such a small sized squad would have a hard time wrapping around Azrael and the Apothecary. These extra bodies on the squad are meant not only as a way to add area coverage and durability to the squad, but also to add some cover to the characters in the middle, as this castle is meant to go straight for the center of the board. Which, in turn, means that they will be exposed to attacks from every direction.

 

What I have thought about is giving the Apothecary the Rites of Battle Warlord Trait, for 1 CP, so that I can give the Devastators Objective Secured. Alternatively, what I have also thought about is not taking the Devastators and their Missile Launchers, but instead a third full-man Plasma Tactical Squad that I have. That would free 20 points in the list AND would still give me a 20-wound squad of infantry that can dish out some good damage from the center of the board; while being objective secured, all on their own, without the need to spend any extra CP.

[Berzul]

Another thing I've been thinking about is if maybe those 5 Ravenwing Bikers could be swapped out for a Darkshroud for the castle, and Rites of Initiation for the Company Master.

[Vulshra]

I like the notion, but that leaves you either without a spearhead or using the bks for that purpose. Are you sure you want to use such an expensive unit for that purpose?

[Berzul]

Yeah, fair enough... I just got caught up in trying to add more survivability to the Devastators.

[Berzul]

Well, I'll have my first chance to test this list next saturday, and a two or three more times after that. As such, since I'll only get about three or four games in total to test it before I have to play the event, I have been working my brain doing some theorycrafting around the list itself. As a natural consequence of both the competitive nature of the event, and myself having just a bit too much time before I can try the list out at all.

 

As such, I have continued to tinker with it, as I've tried to optimize the points around it as best I can. 

At the same time, I have tried to make the list work WYSIWYG, just in case the TO decides to make the event in such a way.

 

I figured I'd share my thoughts here. in case anyone wants to share their thoughts on the list.

 

First of, this is a WYSIWYG version of the list. Strictly tied to the collection I have and the way the models are made.

 

Hidden Content

BATTALION DETACHMENT

2000 POINTS - 12 CP (+2 for Azrael, -1 for Relics of the Chapter, -1 for Hero of the Chapter)

 

Azrael

+ Warlord (Brilliant Strategist)

 

Company Master in Jump Pack

+ Hero of the Chapter (Champion of Humanity)

+ Relic of the Chapter (Master Crafted Thunder Hammer)

+ Storm Bolter

 

Lieutenant in Jump Pack

+ Heavenfall Blade

+ Plasma Pistol

 

5-man Tactical Marines Squad

5-man Tactical Marines Squad

5-man Tactical Marines Squad

5-man Tactical Marines Squad

 

Apothecary

 

5-man Deathwing Terminator Squad

+ Power Sword and Storm Bolter

+ Power Fist and Storm Bolter

+ Power Fist and Storm Bolter

+ Power Fist and Assault Cannon

+ Chain Fist and Storm Bolter

+ Watcher in the Dark

 

Dreadnought

+ Twin Lascannon

+ Missile Launcher

 

5-man Ravenwing Black Knights Squad

+ Corvus Hammers

+ Plasma Talons

 

5-man Ravenwing Bikes Squad

+ Combi Melta

+ Meltagun

+ Meltagun

+ Bolt Pistol

+ Bolt Pistol

 

3-man Ravenwing Attack Bike Squad

+ Multi Melta

+ Multi Melta

+ Multi Melta

 

10-man Devastators Squad

+ Missile Launcher

+ Missile Launcher

+ Missile Launcher

+ Heavy Bolter

+ Armorium Cherub

 

This is 2k on the nose, and entirely WYSIWYG, per my collection of models. Same spirit of the list, with just some options that are just not that reasonable or competitive in terms of wargear.

 

Second, here is the list as I currently have it. It is NOT a WISIWYG list, as some wargear options are not represented in the models; but the proxies I carry here are reduced to the bare minimum, and are only in terms of wargear. No model is represented by one of a different kind. I have highlighted the proxy elements of the list, in any case.

 

Also, the list is actually 1920 points so far, not 2000, since I have stripped down many small wargear options. The main question here is what to do with said 80 points. I do have a couple of ideas, which I will share after the breakdown of the list itself.

 

Hidden Content

BATTALION DETACHMENT

1920 Points - 12 CP (+2 for Azrael, -1 for Relics of the Chapter, -1 for Hero of the Chapter)

 

Azrael

+ Warlord (Brilliant Strategist)

 

Company Master in Jump Pack

+ Hero of the Chapter (Champion of Humanity)

+ Relic of the Chapter (Master Crafted Thunder Hammer)

+ Storm Bolter

 

Lieutenant in Jump Pack

+ Heavenfall Blade Teeth of Terra

+ Plasma Pistol

 

5-man Tactical Marines Squad

5-man Tactical Marines Squad

5-man Tactical Marines Squad

5-man Tactical Marines Squad

 

Apothecary

 

5-man Deathwing Terminator Squad

+ Power Sword and Storm Bolter

+ Power Fist and Storm Bolter

+ Power Fist and Storm Bolter

+ Power Fist and Assault Cannon Storm Bolter

+ Chain Fist and Storm Bolter

 

Dreadnought

+ Twin Lascannon

+ Missile Launcher

 

5-man Ravenwing Black Knights Squad

+ Corvus Hammers

+ Plasma Talons

 

5-man Ravenwing Bikes Squad

+ Combi Melta Astartes Chainsword

+ Meltagun Astartes Chainsword

+ Meltagun Astartes Chainsword

+ Bolt Pistol Astartes Chainsword

+ Bolt Pistol Astartes Chainsword

 

3-man Ravenwing Attack Bike Squad

+ Multi Melta

+ Multi Melta

+ Multi Melta

 

10-man Devastators Squad

+ Missile Launcher

+ Missile Launcher

+ Missile Launcher

+ Heavy Bolter

+ Armorium Cherub

 

As to what to do with the 80 points, what I think is that I can maybe add a chaplain, although that COULD end up being just an over expenditure of points in support characters. Or, if I can find a few more points, I could add a squad of Company Veterans I have. They are equipped with shields and chainswords, and could both work as cheap bodies to guard for Azrael in the early game, as well as act as a relay team for the center-holding of the board.

 

My logic here being that I can use the regular bikers turn one to rush the center of the board. At the same time, I can run the veterans forward, as they do not waste shots in doing so, nor do they need to remain under the effects of the Lion's Helm for their 4++ saves. Turn two, then, I can run the veterans into the center of the board, to hold it, freeing the bikes one turn earlier to go harrass light infantry units of my opponent. Then, by turn three, Azrael's castle will have made 18" in movement total, and will have reached the center of the board. This allows whatever veterans may have survived to move forward to serve as a roadblock for any T3 charging units that might show up, or to remain near Azrael as a defensive unit for him.

 

So, in essence, it works as a relay.

 

T1, bikes take the center

T2, veterans take the center, bikes go elsewhere

T3, Azrael takes the center, surviving veterans (if any) go elsewhere

 

Perhaps the way I could do this is by:

 

1) Taking out the Heavy Bolter Marine from the Devastator Squad (9 bodies lasts almost as good as 10, and the Heavy Bolter is not THAT essential to the list)

2) Downgrading the wargear on the Dread from a Twin Lascannon to a Multi Melta (or perhaps a Heavy Plasma Cannon)

 

This would give me the 123 points I'd need in total to add my 5 Company Veterans. With Storm Shields and Astartes Chainswords all around, plus a Power Sword on the Sergeant, since this is how they are equipped with at present.

Edited August 26, 2021 by Berzul

[Berzul]

So, the tournament is nearing. The 23rd of October is the "placements" date in which I have to play.

 

I'll be trying to get some practice matches this weekend and next week.

 

The list I plan to play, in the end, is this one, and it follows the same general idea as the list previously presented.

 

Hidden Content

BATTALION DETACHMENT

1920 Points - 12 CP (+2 for Azrael, -1 for Relics of the Chapter, -1 for Hero of the Chapter)

 

Azrael

+ Warlord (Brilliant Strategist)

 

Company Master in Jump Pack

+ Hero of the Chapter (Champion of Humanity)

+ Relic of the Chapter (Master Crafted Thunder Hammer)

+ Storm Bolter

 

Lieutenant in Jump Pack

+ Teeth of Terra

+ Plasma Pistol

 

5-man Tactical Marines Squad

5-man Tactical Marines Squad

5-man Tactical Marines Squad

5-man Tactical Marines Squad

 

Apothecary

 

5-man Company Veterans Squad

+ Power Sword and Storm Shield

+ Astartes Chainsword and Storm Shield

+ Astartes Chainsword and Storm Shield

+ Astartes Chainsword and Storm Shield

+ Astartes Chainsword and Storm Shield

 

5-man Deathwing Terminator Squad

+ Power Sword and Storm Bolter

+ Power Fist and Storm Bolter

+ Power Fist and Storm Bolter

+ Power Fist and Storm Bolter

+ Chain Fist and Storm Bolter

 

Dreadnought

+ Multi Melta

+ Missile Launcher

 

5-man Ravenwing Black Knights Squad

+ Plasma Talons

 

5-man Ravenwing Bikes Squad

+ Astartes Chainsword

+ Astartes Chainsword

+ Astartes Chainsword

+ Astartes Chainsword

+ Astartes Chainsword

 

3-man Ravenwing Attack Bike Squad

+ Multi Melta

+ Multi Melta

+ Multi Melta

 

9-man Devastators Squad

+ Missile Launcher

+ Missile Launcher

+ Missile Launcher

 

Scenarios for the date will be

 

SURROUND AND DESTROY

BATTLE LINES

SWEEP AND CLEAR

 

My main idea is still to play Stubborn Tenacity and Oath of Moments as my go-to secondaries. Trying to move my castle up to the center of the baord through a three-step move. Bikes first, then veterans, then Azrael and his devastators. With tacticals taking the backfield, and the Terminators, Black Knights, and Attack Bikes acting all as damage dealers. Buffed by the dual characters that go with jump packs along them.

[Lukoi]

So is your stubborn defiance obsec unit the tacticals?

 

What ive learned about DA is that oaths and stubborn defiance can sometimes work against each other, as they pull apart on some maps.

 

Tacticals in your backfield stubborn defiance objective, might not be close enough for the Azrael 4++ vs shooting. And do not benefit from transhuman. Unless you do a great job screening that unit (at a cost to your center oath castle probably), they will likely get shot off, indirected off, or deepstruck and charged by a competent opponent, earning you only 2-5pts in secondary.

 

For those three maps I commonly choose:

S&D - Stubborn, Rod, Oath or TTL

BL - Stubborn, Rod, TTL

S&C - Stranglehold, Oath, Direct Assault

 

Where I have TTL, if the enemy has an obvious giveway option, I will swap to that (attrition, something from warpctaft etc).

[Berzul]

Thank you for your insights.

 

Overall, my plan does NOT consider the Tacticals walking under the 4++ bubble of Azrael. He is meant to be a middle-field general, and the retinue that will be going along with him down the center of the board being composed of the Devastators, the Veterans, and the Apothecary. With the Veterans starting in front of the Devastators, then quickly running ahead to run interception against anyone coming for them down the middle.

 

The Tacticals I plan on playing in two teams of five, or one big blob of four teams of five. I'd use them all together when going for stubborn defiance. Placing them in such a way that between one to three of the squads act as screens for the rest as objective holders. Then falling back onto the objective with the squads if and as screens become less necessary throught the game. I'd split them up to make teams of one squad shooting and one squad performing actions, when going for something other than stubbron defiance. THus spreading the tacticals over more objectives.

 

I do agree that I cannot be entirely dependent on that secondary, though, as the list does NOT account for other ways to keep the Tacticals alive. The rest of the list is pretty much

terminators, bikes, and jump characters, and they all work for a much more offensive playstyle.

 

 

Also, since you suggested this secondary many times, To The Last is one that I have mixed feelings on. I don't know if I could rely on it.

 

My highest costing units in the list include:

 

1) The 9-man Devastator squad. These guys are under a 4++ bubble and have an apothecary with them. I think they might be able to survive throughout the fight, but they will be placed in serious peril as center field forces.

 

2) The 5-man Black Knights Squad. These guys will most likely all die before the battle is over. I am expecting some SERIOUS focus fire against them throughout the match, as they are main damage dealers all around. Their jink saves, the -1 to be hit I can grant through stratagems, and their T5 W3 might be enough to keep them alive though...

 

3) The 5-man Terminator Squad. These guys have transhuman on them all the time and a 2+/5++. I've seen this one squad survive 180 S3 AP0 shots in one round without losing a single model. I know they are tough. But, they are also very exposed to enemy fire.

 

From the looks of it, this secondary might work, though. THe units are solid enough. Also, it could distract from targeting my tacticals, which could synergize well with Stubborn Defiance.

 

 

As for the general list of secondaries suggested, let's see...

 

 

 

SURROUND AND DESTROY

 

RIght off the bat, I think this scenario is the trickiest.

 

STUBBORN DEFIANCE is hard to get here, due to the way the objectives are spread out. Going after the Primary will leave whoever takes the secondary, quite exposed.

 

On the other hand, OATHS is somewhat doable, since the 6" perimeter on the center of the board is just 4" away from the middle objectives, and if I can form a good enough castle up the middle I can support other units to spread onto said objectives.

 

I think this scenario might be a good one for TO THE LAST, as it is a spread out deployment and I can use the secondary to both relieve my tacticals of some direct fire AND spread out my opponent, as he tries to counterplay the objective.

 

RETRIEVE OCTARIUS DATA might play well here as well. I will already be trying to spread myself to get both my deployment objectives and the two middle objectives, so getting this or ENGAGE ON ALL FRONTS should go along nicely.

 

I think I might go with Oath of Moments, To The Last, and Engage on All Fronts or Retrieve Octarius Data, on this one.

 

 

BATTLE LINES

 

STUBBORN DEFIANCE is definetly a solid secondary, but this list perhaps is not best equipped to rely on it effectively. Its best used, I think, on a scenario such as this one. The deployment gives for a good overlap in deployment between Azrael's castle and the tacticals themselves, as it is Hammer and Anvil deployment with one player objective.

 

OATH OF MOMENTS, in this scenario, is perhaps not the BEST idea, although it is still a solid secondary. The main issue is that you have 28" of separation between central objectives, and 8" between the center area for Oat of Moments and the objectives themselves. Placing Azrael's Castle might not synergize well with the Primary on this one.

 

RETRIEVE OCTARIUS DATA sure seems like a solid choice for this one. I could easily take two actions on my whole side of the board turn 1, get another with the Terminators turn 2 or turn 3. Veterans, since they can't shoot, would be ideal to run forward and try to get the fourth action off, as well. 

 

This objective might overlap well with Engage on All Fronts, as well.

 

I think I might go with Stubborn Defiance, Engage on All Fronts, and Retrieve Octarius Data, on this one.

 

 

SWEEP AND CLEAR

 

In this one I think STUBBORN DEFIANCE does work great with OATH OF MOMENTS, since the deployment zone objective and the center of the board are in a straight line down the diagonal, and their placement gives me a good deployment with the Tacticals near Azrael before the castle moves up to the middle objective. 

 

I also agree that DIRECT ASSAULT is a good secondary here. Can surely be maxed, but it does mean having to pierce entirely through the opposing army. 

 

You suggest STRANGLEHOLD, and it might be a good idea. It requires that I take one half of the board, which looks doable. Having 3 markes on a 5 marker scenario such as this means that when you do get the 3 you automatically have more than the opponent. 

 

I think I might go with Stubborn Defiance, Oath of Moments, and either Stranglehold or Direct Assault. Using my tacticals to go for one objective, my castle to go for the middle of the board, and the rest of my force to push either through the enemy or on to one side of the board.

[Berzul]

Well, I played Sweep and Clear versus two lists today, as practice.

 

My first match was against Sisters of Battle. A list with Morven Vahl, Celestine, a LOT of infantry with Multi Meltas and Storm Bolters (for Blessed Bolts), as well as Mortifiers and Repentias.

 

I got my ass handed to me in two rounds. Nearly got tabled, and we called it quits. I managed to kill just one blob of 20 sisters and two Mortifiers, and I lost almost everything in the process.

 

Second match was against T'au. It played as the opposite, with my list just running over the T'au in two rounds, forcing my opponent to give up at the end of round 2.

 

I played stubborn defiance, oath of moments, and direct assault, on both games.

 

What I learned:

 

1) I made a BIG mistake in trying to contest the center of the board agains the nuns. It was a VERY heavy hitting list, and my castle stood no chance. If I see a list that can hit hard under the 24" range and that carries clear melee threats, I should go for objectives such as Engage, ROD or Strangle, not Oaths and Direct Assault.

 

2) The Dread should be replaced. Just one dread? It gets blown off WAY too easily. I'm thinking that, perhaps, I could take it out. Then, with the 125 points saved, I could put a Lieutenant (for 70), and that gives me wound rerrolls without CP expenditure; as well as an upgraded apothecary (to save myself from another CP per turn). The remaining 20 points could be used to give Rites of Initiation to the Company Master.

[Berzul]

After some fixes to the list, this is where I am so far:

 

Battalion Detachment

2000 Points - 12 CP (+2 for Azrael, -1 for Hero of the Chapter, -1 for Relics of the Chapter)

 

Azrael

+ Warlord: Brilliant Strategist

 

Lieutenant

+ Astartes Chainsword, Bolt Pistol

+ Hero of the Chapter: Rites of War

 

Company Master in Jump Pack

+ Master Crafted Thunder Hammer, Master Crafted Bolter

+ Rites of Initiation

 

Lieutenant in Jump Pack

+ Heavenfall Blade, Plasma Pistol

 

5-man Tactical Squad

5-man Tactical Squad

5-man Tactical Squad

5-man Tactical Squad

 

Apothecary

 

5-man Veterans Squad

+ Power Sword, Storm Shield

+ Astartes Chainswords, Storm Shields

 

5-man Deathwing Terminator Squad

+ Power Sword, Storm Bolter

+ Power Fists, Storm Bolters

 

5-man Ravenwing Black Knights Squad

 

5-man Ravenwing Bikers Squad

+ Combi Melta

+ Two Meltaguns

+ Two Astartes Chainswords

 

9-man Devastator Squad

+ Three Missile Launchers

 

 

My thoughts here are:

 

1) The castle is better served from Rites of War and a non-CP costing aura to reroll 1s to wound. A barebones Lieutenant serves this purpose perfectly.

 

2) The regular Ravenwing Bikers, when carrying the meltaguns, might attract more enemy fire. I realized in todays games that these guys can really serve to lift attacks from the Attack Bikes, but since they need to be more threatening on their own, for that.

 

3) Rites of Initiation is way too useful not to take. That Company Master is going to find himself exposed to damage, no two ways about it. Permanent Transhuman Physiology is absolutely a must for him.

 

Now, the castle (specially with the 2+/4++ Veterans there) withstood a LOT of concentrated firepower. Shields up front, apothecary in the middle, missiles in the back. It worked great. I'm sacrificing some firepower by taking out the Dreadnought, but I think it's a good trade off, in the end. Specially if I plan on playing Oath of Moments on two of the three scenarios.

[Lukoi]

In your game vs the nuns what did you contest the middle with? Id take oath, stranglehold, direct assault (essentially tripling down on center), but that is given my personal list.

[Berzul]

Pre-game I moved my 5 Bikers in.

 

Turn 1 I moved the bikers out, to grab another objective. My Veterans made a run for it, and took the center.

 

Turn 2 my Devastators got there, so I had both units, and my bikers also made a ride back to triple-down on the center.

 

Sadly, on turn 2 I got my devastators, Azrael and Apothecary shot down, my veterans mauled in melee, my bikes tangled in combat.

 

By then also my Attack Bikes and Jump Pack characters had gone down, so I just had my terminators and my black knights against like 1500 remaining points worth of nuns (with my tactical squads scoring stubborn defiance, but they would be killed on turn 4 anyway).

 

I REALLY need to give the castle Objec Secured

Edited October 3, 2021 by Berzul

[Lukoi]

This is where the differences in list designs really occur

Im using heavy ints with Az invuln bubble for stubborn defiance obsec and screening that objective so folks cannot deepstrike it away in one turn, and using more durable units like DW Terminators/Knights to press center in a scenario like your game above.

 

I do the same thing with sending bikes to center first on yhe three maps I take Oath on as a secondary, by the way.

 

Termies/BGV get IC, primaris get transhuman, even infils get smokescreen. What do 1st born get (besides termies)? Shot off the center objective.

 

None of your center units, even with an Az invuln, had enough durability in the face of all of that shooting, and even yhen sounds like you might have faced some swingy rolls. That sounds like a tough game. Was there enough terrain on the table?

[Berzul]

First of, I am very thankful of your input so far. It has been very helpful.

 

About the lists, yeah. I think the design choices here affect a lot of the overall plan. Most of my decisions are forced upon me, though, because I do NOT own ANY Primaris models. My collection is entirely Firstborn Marines.

 

Now, that being considered, and after thinking over the list some more, I have come to realize that while I can still manage to keep the list true to its original form, I do need to modify it a bit and I do need to play it differently. So as to prevent getting crushed at the center like it happened this past weekend.

 

The things I've identified are:

 

1) The center needs something stronger to try and claim it. Veterans and Devastators are, indeed, ill equipped for the task, even with the 4++/6+++ bubbles.

 

2) If I am going to give Objective Secured to the Castle, I might as well use it for Stubborn Defiance instead of for Oath of Moments.

 

So, with that in mind, the list I am currently at is this one:

 

 

Hidden Content

Battalion Detachment
2000 Points - 12 CP (+2 for Azrael, -1 for Hero of the Chapter, -1 for Relics of the Chapter)

Azrael
+ Warlord: Brilliant Strategist

Lieutenant
+ Astartes Chainsword, Bolt Pistol
+ Hero of the Chapter: Rites of War

Company Master in Jump Pack
+ Master Crafted Thunder Hammer, Master Crafted Bolter

Lieutenant in Jump Pack
+ Heavenfall Blade, Plasma Pistol

5-man Tactical Squad
5-man Tactical Squad
5-man Tactical Squad

Apothecary

5-man Deathwing Knights Squad

5-man Deathwing Terminator Squad
+ Power Sword, Storm Bolter
+ Power Fists, Storm Bolters

5-man Ravenwing Black Knights Squad

5-man Ravenwing Bikers Squad
+ Astartes Chainswords

10-man Devastator Squad
+ Three Plasma Cannons

+ One Heavy Bolter

 

The idea is simple. The list works similarly to what it used to work like.

 

Azrael, the Lieutenant, and the Devastators, go over the backfield objective to get Stubborn Defiance. Screened with the 5-man Tactical Squads. Using Plasma Cannons now, instead of Missile Launchers, to provide me of a second place to use WotDA, in case my Ravenwing Black Knights get blasted off the board.

 

The Ravenwing Bikers go for the central objective, followed then by the Deathwing Knights and the Apothecary. It is a small squad, yes. Just 5-man. They do not have the Pennant of Remembrance either, yes. Points are just not there to give them another five bodies or the Ancient. But, on the other hand, a 5 man squad is easier to hide behind terrain in deployment. They are still tough as nails to break. They still have the Apothecary there with them to bring a model back each round, and give them the 6+++ save.

 

The bikes keep doing what they are good at doing. Black Knights with dual character support, and Attack Bikes going far and serving as anti-armor and as a distraction for my opponent. Jump Pack Characters can fight well enough to pose a threat themselves, once the distance from the enemy is covered.

 

The terminators also keep doing what they are good at doing. Performing a Deathwing Assault with +1 to hit and +1 to wound on T2, against infantry at objectives. 

 

I really wish I could find a way to fortify the center more, though. Thing is, what can I take out? And, if I go for a larger squad, then it might be more difficult to hide them in deployment. Also, what can you bring in to support them, really? What would be a good way to do something like that?

 

The best I can think of as an improvement on the list here would be to take out the heavy bolter on the devastators and the heavenfall blade on the jump pack lieutenant, and use those points to upgrade my apothecary to a Ravenwing Apothecary. So that he can reposition himself quickly across the board to provide support where needed. So, even if I am losing the center, he can still move elsewhere and continue providing support.

[Vulshra]

Do you think reducing the size of the RW Bike squad could help you fortify the center more? Given the central thesis of the list, I'd say the larger rw squads may be counterproductive. While they certainly are nice (I like mono rw myself), the inclusion hear may be trying to do too many things at once

[Berzul]

Maybe I am, indeed.

 

I've been trying to approach this from a different point of view. By going down the list of things the army is supposed to achieve, and the objectives it is meant to accomplish. This way I could try to reform the list by tackling the essentials, and then fill the gaps with what points allow.

 

The list needs

 

• A fast unit to make a quick move for the center. Five bikes might be overspending, but I really, really want whatever I put there to survive for a couple of rounds
• A hard to shift unit with Objective Secured to make a T1-T2 move for the center, and hold it for at least T2, T3 and T4
• A hard hitting unit with Objective Secured to hold down one backfield objective from T1 through to T5
• Enough troops and fast moving units to spread out and perform actions/dish out some damage

 

The idea is to go for secondaries such as

 

• Stubborn Defiance and Oath of Moments on scenarios Battle Lines and Sweep and Clear
• Engage on All Fronts and Retrieve Octarius Data or Raise the Banners on scenario Surround and Destroy
• Most likely To The Last, Stranglehold, or Scenario-Specific as a third secondary, overall

 

So, how could I achieve this?

 

• I like my Azrael + Lieutenant + Devastators "castle" for the backfield
• I am thinking using Deathwing Knights with the Deathwing Ancient for the center hold
• A Ravenwing Apothecary to run in between both formations
• Black Knights with a Company Master for support works well as damage dealers

 

And, how could this look like?

 

Hidden Content

Battalion Detachment

11 CP

 

HQs

 

Azrael

 

Lieutenant

+ Warlord: Rites of War

 

Company Master

+ Relic Blade

 

TROOPS

 

5-Man Tactical Squad

5-Man Tactical Squad

5-Man Tactical Squad

 

ELITES

 

Ravenwing Apothecary

 

8-man Deathwing Knights Squad

 

Deathwing Ancient

+ Chapter Ancient

+ Hero of the Chapter: Steadfast Example

+ Pennant of Remembrance

 

5-man Ravenwing Black Knights Squad

 

FAST ATTACK

 

5-man Ravenwing Bike Squad

+ Astartes Chainswords

 

HEAVY SUPPORT

 

8-man Devastator Squad

+ Plasma Cannon

+ Plasma Cannon

+ Plasma Cannon

 

This is 1765 points. It leaves me with 235 to spend. Should I go for this list, I am debating with myself on how to spend these points, with the following ideas in mind:

 

• (i) A fourth Tactical Squad, to make two teams of two squads of five. Make them harder to take out, as they spread screen the Devastators or spread over the board for actions, or (ii) a Jump Pack Lieutenant, to improve the efficiency of the Black Knights. This, plus two Multi Melta Attack Bikes, that can hide easily across the board and spread out to take quadrants.

• A squad of 5 Deathwing Terminators, as they can deep strike into a far objective or needed quadrant, use Deathwing Assault on a +1/+1 on their Storm Bolters, and perform actions that Attack Bikes cannot. This, plus a sixth Ravenwing Black Knight.

 

Perhaps there are even better ideas out there, but this is what I have in mind. I realize the list lacks more S8/S9 weapons, which is a big weakness. But, at the same time, it has two places for WotDA, Objective Secured where needed, what I feel is a fair degree of durability, and a big pool of CP to start with to fuel everything. I feel like this list could score well on the board, even if it is not the deadliest list out there.

Edited October 5, 2021 by Berzul

[Lukoi]

Well you have already hit on termies for first born durability. For speed, I would consider 1-2 solo bikes. Five jus to hold center in a dash, while your terms trundle up the board or deepstrike in, is too inviting a target to kill points wise.

 

A solo bike, while easily killed, is also a small price to pay for a quick trade and buys you a round commonly.

 

You can lose the pricey five pack in two rounds (one if they focus it), whereas the small footprint solo bikes get u a round each, at a cheaper price. Then u can have a third, larger group for more punch.

 

Also, consider a talonmaster. First born, with arbiters gaze, it is very well priced. Not quite as well as a relic contemptor dread with volkites for what it does, but very speedy, capable, and protectable via Look out Sir.

[Berzul]

I mean, if I take the five bikers out, and instead go with some attack bikes (which I assume is what solo-bikes mean, am I right?), I can manage some interesting things with the points.

 

The thing here is that I'd be using 60 points worth of bikes (one attack bike, which comes with a MM and I cannot replace the weapon on the model at this time) to take the center for one turn. After that, this bike is getting blown out of the water, no questions about it. 

 

Now, that in itself could be a good trade off, I guess. You are paying 60 points to get 2 scored points through Oath of Moments in T1, before the bike dies and the Deathwing Knights can run forward and take its spot.

 

What I like about the 5-man Ravenwing Bikers Squad is that it dishes out 20 bolter shots, and can clearly hold the ground and survive better than the lone attack bike. That way you have something that can then move out of the center in T2 or T3 and do some backfield harrasment, or score you Engage on All Fronts.

 

But, it is true that it is quite an investment. If I went with the three Attack Bikes instead, the list could look like this:

 

Hidden Content

Battalion Detachment

11 CP

 

HQs

 

Azrael

 

Lieutenant

+ Astartes Chainsword, Bolt Pistol

+ Warlord: Rites of War

 

Company Master

+ Thunder Hammer, Master Crafted Bolter

 

TROOPS

 

5-Man Tactical Squad

 

5-Man Tactical Squad

 

5-Man Tactical Squad

 

ELITES

 

Ravenwing Apothecary

 

8-man Deathwing Knights Squad

 

Deathwing Ancient

+ Chapter Ancient

+ Hero of the Chapter: Steadfast Example

+ Pennant of Remembrance

 

5-man Ravenwing Black Knights Squad

 

5-man Deathwing Terminator Squad

+ Power Sword, Storm Bolter

+ Assault Cannon, Power Fist

+ Chainfist, Power Fist

+ Storm Bolter, Power Fist

+ Storm Bolter, Power Fist

 

FAST ATTACK

 

Ravenwing Attack Bike

+ Multi Melta

 

Ravenwing Attack Bike

+ Multi Melta

 

Ravenwing Attack Bike

+ Multi Melta

 

HEAVY SUPPORT

 

8-man Devastator Squad

+ Plasma Cannon

+ Plasma Cannon

+ Plasma Cannon

 

And I do think it is a good looking list.

 

I really wish I could fit a fourth Tactical Squad there, or the Jump Pack Lieutenant for the Black Knights, but I do get the main portions of the army (Azrael's Castle, Deathwing Knights under a banner, a fast apothecary to relay between them), while adding both some small-footprint bikes to move around and the 5-man Deathwing Terminator Squad for Deathwing Assault and Fury of the First on T2 to clear light infantry on hard to reach objectives (and to even perform actions, should I go with Retrieve Octarius Data, Teleport Homers, or Raise the Banners High).

[Berzul]

Well, I had a chance to try the list today. Against a Deathguard list that was, as fortune would have it, quite the match up to mine.

 

My list carries fairly little in terms of Anti Armor, and the Deathguard list I faced was composed of:

 

+ Two squads of 20 Pox Walkers

+ A squad of 8 Plague Marines, in a Rhino, with a Malignant Plague Caster and a Biologus Putrifier

+ A Lord of Virulence, with 5 Blightlord Terminators

+ A Defiler

+ A unit of 3 Miphilitic Blight-haulers

+ A Helbrute

+  A Foetid Bloat-drone

+ A Plagueburst Crawler

 

So, in essence, a TON of high toughness, 5++ saving, -1D resisting, vehicles and other monstrosities.

 

We played Surround and Destroy, from Grand Tournament 2021 (Dawn of War deploymnent, 6 objectives on the table).

 

For secondaries, I took Engage on All Fronts, Oath of Moments, and Retrieve Octarius Data.

 

For secondaries, my opponent took Retrieve Octarius Data, Spread the Sickness, and To the Last (for which he had to retain his Plagueburst Crawler, his Miphilitic Blight-haulers, and his Defiler).

 

I got second turn.

 

We played a grueling match, that lasted all the way until round five.

 

By the end of the game I had lost:

 

+ The Black Knights (on T3, against grenades from the Plague Marines, after getting mauled down to 2 models in melee against the Foetid Blight-drone)

+ The Company Master (on T3, against the helbrute, in melee)

+ The Deathwing Terminator Squad (on T3, from combined fire of the Defiler and the Miphilitic Blight-haulers, after they dropped on the backfield to get ROD, take an objective, and clear some pox walkers))

+ One of the 5-man Tactical Squads (on T4, in melee against the Helbrute)

+ Two of the Attack Bikes (that died on T4, against general fire, which was suprising)

+ Half of my Devastator Squad (between T2 and T3, from combined pot shots from various units)

+ One Deathwing Knight (on T2, to the Defiler, from far off on the other side of the board, because I could not hide the models well)

 

Meanwhile, I managed to kill

 

+ One full squad of Pox Walkers (on T2, with a combined attack of my Deathwing Terminators using Deathwing Assault, and my Devastators)

+ The Foetid Bloat Drone (on T3, by finishing it off with an Attack Bike, after weakening it on T2 with my Black Knights)

+ The Blightlord Terminators (which lasted two rounds of melee combat against my Deathwing Knights at the center of the board)

+ The Lord of Virulence (who died T4 in melee against my Deathwing Knights)

 

We played for four turns, and in terms of scoring, I managed

 

T1: One ROD, and 1 point from Oaths

T2: 10 for Primaries, 3 for Engage, one ROD, and 4 for Oaths

T3: 10 for Primaries, 3 for Engage, one ROD, and 3 for Oaths

T4: 10 for Primaries, 2 for Engage, and 4 for Oaths

 

By T5 I was projected to get 15 for Primaries, and 3 for Oaths, and to finish with 8 for ROD, for a total of 73, but managed an actual total of 50 by T4.

 

 

My opponent managed:

 

T1: Nothing

T2: 10 for Primaries

T3: 5 for Primaries

T4: 15 for Primaries, 3 for Spread the Sickness, and one ROD

 

He was projected to get another 10 for Primaries, another 3 for Spread the Sickness, a second ROD, and keep 2 of his units for To The Last, which would have placed him at 60 points, but managed an actual score of 33 by T4.

 

Things that REALLY worked with the list:

 

+ Azrael's Castle worked wonderfully. Even though the Plasmas are a tough to use weapon against T7 and -1D units.

+ Deathwing Knights with the Ancient, of course, took the center and held if perfectly. Great job.

+ Tacticals worked as ROD grabbers. I did not manage to move one squad to the last quarter of the table, so Banners might have been a better secondary. I am considering this, for the next match I play.

+ The Deathwing Terminators worked very well. They managed to get me one marker on ROD, although it cost me 2CP to get it (i could not forgo their shooting on the one turn they had to do something)

+ Full Throttle and single unit Attack Bikes worked really well. They indeed were very easy to hide, and got me Engage on All Fronts almost the entire match. I kept full throttling one bike each round to navigate the board and snatch a table quarted, and it worked very well.

 

The issues with the list are that

 

+ The Black Knights suffer without more support, but I don't think I can give them more support to be honest.

+ It is NOT a good list to go up against armor, and this game made me VERY aware of that, in the best possible way. 

+ ROD might work worse than Raise the Banners as a secondary. I am confident I can get 3 RODs consistently, but no way I can get the last one.

+ Stubborn Defiance WOULD have worked really well on this match, with the Azrael Castle, to be honest... But, it would depend on the opponent. In this match they were very well guarded, and my opponent had a very, very slow moving list.

[Lukoi]

Congrats on the win. RTB vs RoD is always contingent on the map imo. So good lesson learned there. Sounds like a great game.

[Berzul]

Thank you. Yeah, it was a good and challenging match up. One of the two armies I fear the most with my list (this one being heavy on Armor, the other being heavy on Mortal Wounds, both of which are things I can have a LOT of trouble to handle).

[Berzul]

I got a game against a Primaris list of Black Templars on tuesday.

 

Last I checked, it has a redemptor, 5 erradicators, a bike chaplain, 10 assault intercessors, 10 helblasters, some bladeguard in a transport, and some infiltrators.

 

Lets see how it goes. I'll be sure to report it here.

[Berzul]

Hey!

So, my Black Templar opponent fell through due to a mix up in dates, but I did manage to have one game against Death Guard. Being played by a player who participated in the first placements date, last saturday. So, it was a pretty good match up.

 

We played the game Battle Lines, in a board that had a BIG LoS blocking ruin in the middle, as well as some ruins on each deployment zone, for cover and LoS blocking.

 

+++ 

 

My opponent played a list composed of:

 

Malignant Plague Caster

Lord of Contagion

 

Tallyman

Plague Surgeon

Foul Blightspawn

 

2x20 Pox Walkers

1x10 Plague Marines

1x4 Deathshroud Terminators

 

3 Miphilitic Blight-haulers

2 Plagueburst Crawlers

1 Foetid Bloat-drone

 

I played my current list.

 

+++ 

 

I took Stubborn Defiance, Retrieve Octarius Data, and Oath of Moments

My opponent took Warp Ritual, Vital Ground (the scenario Secondary), and Spread the Sickness

 

+++

 

I got to deploy second, and I got first turn. 

 

The battle was very one sided at first. I took a long time to manage to get on the Primary Objectives, but I did manage to do well with my secondaries from the start. Also, I managed to retain most of my list throughout the game, while almost tabling my opponent. 

 

T1 I managed to wipe over half the Plague Marines, but little else, due to very difficult LoS with my units. I moved quickly to the center with my Deathwing. My tactical squads got one go of RoD.

 

T1 my opponent fired every everything he could at my Deathwing (both mortars plus the entire miphilitics) and only managed to kill one terminator (which I brought back next turn), and corrupted his backline objective marker.

 

T2 I moved in with my Deathwing Knights and pincered him with my other Terminators coming in behind him via Deep Strike. On the drop, the Terminators got another RoD and managed to reduce one side of Pox Walkers to just 3 models (although it did cost 4CP to pull that off). FInally, my Black Knights managed to get behind him and clear all the Plague marines. Charges went in, and I managed to clear the PLague Caster with my Jump Pack Company Master, 2/3 of the Miphilitic Blight-haulers with my Deathwing Knights. The Black Knights tied up the Plague Surgeon and the Foul Blightspawn in combat.

 

T2 my opponent brought in his own terminators over an objective, and corrupted another one, but failed to do much damage with his shooting, since he had so few targets to fire at. 

 

T3 I took one more RoD. I kept his Surgeon and Blightspawn tied in combat, and managed to kill the Blightspawn. My terminators managed to keep the final Miphilitic and the Tallyman tied in combat as well, and wrestle the objective marker from them. My Devastators killed a couple of his terminators, and then the Deathwing Knights moved in to charge and finish the job, while my Ancient kept the center for Oath of Moments.

 

T3 My opponent had very few things to fight me with, and did almost no damage, but remained on his primary on one side of the board.

 

T4 I pushed through the last of his forces. Leaving just one mortar tank and some pox walkers to one side of the board, while claiming 3/4 of the objective markers and another RoD.

 

T4 my opponent had pretty much nothing to do. He called the game after that. We projected scoring for T5 per Tournament Rules (since this was a tournament practice match), and we called it.

 

+++ 

 

In the end, I got

 

T1: 2 for Oath of Moments, one RoD

T2: 5 for Primaries, 2 for Stubborn Defiance, one RoD, and 4 for Oath of Moments

T3: 5 for Primaries, 3 for Stubborn Defiance, one ROD, and 4 for Oath of Moments

T4: 15 for Primaries, 5 for Stubborn Defiance, 3 for Oath of Moments

T5 (projected): 15 for Primaries, 5 for Stubborn Defiance, last RoD, 3for Oath of Moments

+10 for painted army

 

Total: 93 points

 

My opponent got

 

T1: one marker corrupted

T2: 15 for Primaries, 2 for Vital Ground, one marker corrupted

T3: 5 for Primaries, 2 for Vital Ground, one marker corrupted

T4: 5 for Primaries, 2 for Vital Ground

T5 (projected): 5 for Primaries, 2 for Vital Ground

+10 for painted army

 

Total: 57 points

 

+++ 

 

It was a very weird match, and quite difficult given the terrain, but in the end I prevailed against a list that was easier to crack than the other DG fight I had last week, but much deadlier in terms of damage output. What made the match in my favor was definetly the Deathwing Knights at the center. They absorbed SO MUCH firepower, it was unreal. My opponent couldn't believe the rolls.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 12, 2021 by Berzul