Updates to existing Marine Vehicles

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

They shouldn't be nerfing any existing weapons, especially considering that other factions have firepower just as deadly. Look at Dark Eldar as an example.

 

Keep in mind that Astartes aren't a faction that rolls over all others at this point, they are not the top tier threat.

 

Vehicles are badly balanced internally in the codex, but that fact doesn't hold true across all the other factions. Vehicles are very strong in Dark Eldar and AdMech factions, as an example.

 

Games Workshop should start by significantly dropping the cost for the various tanks, and then move on to supporting them with better rules and stratagems in future codex updates/revisions.

 

DE and Admech are oppressive, and when I talk about 3+d3 damage weapons I meant them. They need to be nerfed more, armies shouldn't have 60% win rates that said MM are by far the most popular heavy weapon choice for marines and that isn't healthy.

 

I do think that easiest fix for vehicles is just dropping the 5 point surcharge they pay for heavy weapons. A lascannon should be just as expensive for a pred as it for a squad of devs. For predator Annihilator it would amount to a 20 point drop, which would help out a lot.

 

GW should really just let Tanks be able to TANK damage. SM vehicles don't need complete rewrites to their datasheets, increasing rules bloat and book keeping. Just increase their wound count across the board. Rhino variants at 20 wounds, Predator variants at 22 wounds, land speeders at 12 wounds, Storm Ravens at 28 wounds, Land Raiders at 32 wounds.

easy, problem solved in an errata.

 

I'd argue that adding a point of toughness to tanks, and a dmg -1 buff wouldn't require a rewrite of their data sheet either. I also doubt I'd run anymore infantry than I had to if vehicles wounds doubled without any additional cost. I'd probably just take hqs, dreads, and speeders because with the older tanks you'd be relying on d6 weapons.

 

I don't mind the ideal of vehicles having a bunch more wounds but calling it a simple solution is a bit much.

[Mandragola]

Adding wounds might well be the answer. It would be necessary to replicate it right across the game of course.

 

You might then want some really serious guns to do more damage in that case. Lascannons - and especially things like railguns and the executioner laser thing could easily go to 2d6 damage or more.

[Djangomatic82]

Adding wounds might well be the answer. It would be necessary to replicate it right across the game of course.

 

You might then want some really serious guns to do more damage in that case. Lascannons - and especially things like railguns and the executioner laser thing could easily go to 2d6 damage or more.

 

I'd disagree on making it across all factions. The issue is most other factions have army rules, data sheet abilities, aura's, strats, points values, etc.. that make at least some of their vehicles good. SM, other than Iron Hands dont have any of that, as it seems the design choice is that the Statline is where most of the design grunt work is supposed to be for our vehicles. The issue is, SM vehicle stat lines are a joke at current Wounds values.  Just Double the wounds. leave then as is otherwise.

With double wounds, it becomes an interesting chooice of resilience versus pure efficiency, as an equal point value of infantry will always offer more kiilling power, objective play and overall versatility.

But a 32 wound Land raider is a legit hurdle. It wont kill most vehicles or squads in 1 turn like most other factions vehicles of choice, but it will sticl around, deal enough damage to be an issue and be a general hurdle that the opponent probably wont be able to ignore, thereby having to play around it, or dedicate too much resources too removing it.

That is what SM vehicles should be. Big, Tanky pains in the butt that generally dont kill everything in one turn, but get in the way and provide us with the option of playing the attrition game that our Elite, MSU normal style and lack of cheap units prevents us from doing.

 

Edited September 18, 2021 by Djangomatic82

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

 

Adding wounds might well be the answer. It would be necessary to replicate it right across the game of course.

 

You might then want some really serious guns to do more damage in that case. Lascannons - and especially things like railguns and the executioner laser thing could easily go to 2d6 damage or more.

 

I'd disagree on making it across all factions. The issue is most other factions have army rules, data sheet abilities, aura's, strats, points values, etc.. that make at least some of their vehicles good. SM, other than Iron Hands dont have any of that, as it seems the design choice is that the Statline is where most of the design grunt work is supposed to be for our vehicles. The issue is, SM vehicle stat lines are a joke at current Wounds values.  Just Double the wounds. leave then as is otherwise.

With double wounds, it becomes an interesting chooice of resilience versus pure efficiency, as an equal point value of infantry will always offer more kiilling power, objective play and overall versatility.

But a 32 wound Land raider is a legit hurdle. It wont kill most vehicles or squads in 1 turn like most other factions vehicles of choice, but it will sticl around, deal enough damage to be an issue and be a general hurdle that the opponent probably wont be able to ignore, thereby having to play around it, or dedicate too much resources too removing it.

That is what SM vehicles should be. Big, Tanky pains in the butt that generally dont kill everything in one turn, but get in the way and provide us with the option of playing the attrition game that our Elite, MSU normal style and lack of cheap units prevents us from doing.

 

 

 

1) we have good vehicles several of our dreadnoughts see competitive play (redemptors, contemptors, and leviathans). So if anything the argument that their vehicles shouldn't get better because they have some good ones is equally valid against marines. 

 

2) If marine vehicles just doubled in wounds, I'm not only running as many vehicles as I can, but I'm not touching land raiders or repulsors. Dreads are already good, so I'd spam them, and maybe some storm speeders for speed because they're already close to be being competitive. 

 

Marine vehicles are bad but not to the level were doubling the wounds with no point increases makes sense at least across the board. Adding wounds to some of the vehicles makes a lot of sense, but it isn't some simple solution. 

[L30n1d4s]

I vote that all vehicles (not just Marine) get classified as "Light," "Medium," or "Heavy" as follows:

 

 

1 - Light Vehicles (typically T5-6) get the "Light Vehicle" Keyword and have -1 to Wound them for all attacks that are S4 and below

 

2 - Medium Vehicles (typically T7) get the "Medium Vehicle" Keyword and have -1 to wound them for all attacks that are S6 and below

 

3 - Heavy Vehicles (typically T8 and above) get the "Heavy Vehicle" Keyword and -1 to wound them for all attacks that are S8 and below (and yes, this means that S3/S4 would not be able to Wound these vehicles, since they wound them on 6s naturally and would then have a -1.... I think it is quite acceptable for Land Raiders and Leman Russes to be "invulnerable" to Lasgun/Bolter/Shuriken/Galvanic Carbine attacks).

 

 

This would make all vehicles more durable against small arms, medium vehicles better against "chip damage" from things like Heavy Bolters and Disintegrators, and the really tough vehicles (like Land Raiders) tougher against anything that is not a dedicated Tank Hunter (i.e. like S9 Lascannons, S10 Centurion Assault Drills, S14 Redemptor Fists, etc.).

 

 

Finally, Imperial Fist and Iron Warrior Chapter Tactics would give them a special rule that let's them ignore this penalty, making them better than average against vehicles relative to other armies.

Edited September 20, 2021 by L30n1d4s

[Medjugorje]

I think they just should change the armor saves and toughness.

 Lets give LR and Repulsors T9.  Dreadknoughts 2+ Saves (of course some of them a+ point increase) 

[Chaplain Augustus]

I just reread this thread from the beginning; there are a few different topics being addressed.

 

The two biggest ones?

 

1) what new variations in existing tanks would you like to see. I.E. plasma predators or grav LR etc.

 

2) fixing problems with marine vehicles and tanks in particular.

 

The first topic seems to have been a bit buried despite that being the seed for the thread.

 

No big deal. Happy to tackle both.

 

Topic the first!

1)I quite miss las/plas razorbacks. I don't think they're optimal most of the time but they're cool as heck.

2)I would welcome any new weapon option for the predator. That tank should be versatile but without treading (hehehe) on more specialist units. Personally I'd love to see a plasma version (no doubt cause i enjoy the idea of 41st millennium technology being inherently dangerous... Grimdark)

 

Topic the second!

This is a tough one. There are multiple concerns that should be addressed. I think dreadnoughts are in a good place and speeders are probably 5pts away from being balanced so let's ask...

What's killing tanks?

Do tanks "feel" tough enough?

Are tanks points efficient enough to field?

I think, broadly speaking, melta and lance type weapons are king at 'sploding tanks. High volume small arms can be a problem but less so. 25%ish more wounds would fix the small arms part and a point of toughness would go a long way to fixing the other side.

Dropping points by another 10-15% would address the final problem.

Small changes big results is the way in my view.

Edited September 20, 2021 by Chaplain Augustus

[Charlo]

Weirdly, I'd like to see an analogue to the Predator Destructor

 

While the gladiators are the obvious comparison and I suppose the big laser weapon has replaced the large autocannon, it still feels a bit off!