Contemptor Volkites

[Theredknight]

So, as the title suggests..

 

Are these no good now for Ksons what with cabal points and space wizarding all over the opposition?

 

I haven’t seen any lists with them included yet

[Trokair]

I know the meta/competitive stuff have been mentioning twin volkite Contemptor this edition for a while, so I assume it is the new hotness for meta chasing.

 

However I just don’t quite see what the excitement is about. Yes lets of shots, with a chance for mortal wounds, but no AP. Why not take a Hades armed Forgefiend?

 

The dread has the minus damage thing dreads now have, but the fiend heals and has more wounds.

 

For loyalist, who can park a Lieutenant to fish for more mortal wounds, and get AP through doctrines I can see it a bit better, but only a bit.

 

Why do you think they are good? Maybe I am missing something and should find room for one.

[Mushkilla]

 

Why do you think they are good? Maybe I am missing something and should find room for one.

 

 

They are core so benefit from Egleighen's Orrery (eliminating one of their main weaknesses -1 damage). Combo that with Cult of knowledge for re-roll 1s to wound. We can have three of them, re-rolling 1s to hit, 1s to wound and ignoring modifiers to hit, wound and damage.

 

We can also boost a single comtemptors strength with an Infernal Master and give one AP-1 with ensorcelled infusion.

 

On paper it seems potent. 

[Ahzek451]

The lack of a degrading profile and a potential candidate for inescapable forewarning is also nice. Smaller model that is easier to maneuver and hide. Helbrutes are an alright choice for us, but the volkite contemptor does so much more.

[Prot]

 

 

Why do you think they are good? Maybe I am missing something and should find room for one.

 

 

They are core so benefit from Egleighen's Orrery (eliminating one of their main weaknesses -1 damage). Combo that with Cult of knowledge for re-roll 1s to wound. We can have three of them, re-rolling 1s to hit, 1s to wound and ignoring modifiers to hit, wound and damage.

 

We can also boost a single comtemptors strength with an Infernal Master and give one AP-1 with ensorcelled infusion.

 

On paper it seems potent. 

 

 

 

^This. I mean overall I am not seeing a lot of games played period. It's still early. When it comes to this unit, I am using it. Just had a game the other night using the Contemptor with Volkites. Honestly, it was okay, but I was too aggressive with the unit to get line of sight. 

 

I actually actively use Egleighen's Orrery and as said, he's core. He costs a CP though and that's a big minus for me since the army has amazing strats that I am continually CP starved to use. 

[Theredknight]

We can get the trait / Relic where we reclaim one per turn at least?

Get a duo of these I think it may be worth the extra 2 CP you pay with martial legacy,

 

Good for thought, in a more competitive setting perhaps.

What would you fill the army with, just place out with rubrics maybe a spawn or 2?

[Ahzek451]

I do see a lot of lists with 2 or 3, but honestly I'm only ever going to have 1. I prefer to diversify with other tools, not to mention that GW is certainly taking notice that the twin volkite combo is working for marines of all kinds. Imperial and chaos. Willing to bet it's going to eventually get hit with the nerf bat.

[BoomWolf]

Yup, I fully expect next CA to bump each volkite 20 points

[Mushkilla]

Yup, I fully expect next CA to bump each volkite 20 points

 

Yeah wouldn't surprise me.

 

Personally why I stay away from forge world models. They see power spikes because they seem to get overlooked during the codex development process and then brutally nerfed 2-4 months later (Malefic Lords, Fire Raptor, etc).

[Prot]

I already own the contemptor but really it has so little play as it is. It’s obvious they want people to stop using old models. I’d let the Volkites have their moments but I wouldn’t be surprised..they really aren’t that great with no AP and cover being so prominent. 

[Closet Skeleton]

Its 20 points cheaper than the (apart from -1 AP) twin heavy bolter alternative and 10 points cheaper than the assault cannon. Those Volkites are efficient and undercosted, that's why tournament players love them and consider the only other viable contemptor load out to be the even cheaper plasma cannons.

 

Half the Contemptor weapon costs look like mad libs. Heavy Bolters and Lascannons are especially weirdly priced. I'm not even sure the shots on the Volkite culverin isn't a misprint but I'm not familiar with the weapon's 30k profile. No other FW Volkite weapon has a large number of shots.

Edited August 30, 2021 by Closet Skeleton

[Xenith]

Lots of shots [from a dread] seems to be a continuing 8th/9th ed meta. Remember the dual storm leviathans? I'm glad they actually made this work. They may have priced it due to it's potency in 30k, which is 4 shots twin linked no ap in a power armoured world, but doubling the shots for 8th ed makes it really decent. The S6 AP0 is a perfect synergy with the low S high AP the rest of the infantry has, and is great for orks (wounds on 3+), admech or sisters (wounds on 2+), and even primaris (D2). I think we can hit it with the -1AP strat we have, to make it kill twice as mant marine bodies. Unsure if I'd run it dual culverins, I prefer some melee potency.

[Prot]

Its 20 points cheaper than the (apart from -1 AP) twin heavy bolter alternative and 10 points cheaper than the assault cannon. Those Volkites are efficient and undercosted, that's why tournament players love them and consider the only other viable contemptor load out to be the even cheaper plasma cannons.

 

Half the Contemptor weapon costs look like mad libs. Heavy Bolters and Lascannons are especially weirdly priced. I'm not even sure the shots on the Volkite culverin isn't a misprint but I'm not familiar with the weapon's 30k profile. No other FW Volkite weapon has a large number of shots.

 

 

Well that's true, but that's not the whole story... in my opinion. Meaning, I can't remember the last time I saw a twin heavy bolter/assault cannon dread. 

 

The Volkite Contemptor gives it purpose. I think it's pointed about right. Just the other ones flat out suck. To be 100% real here, my best loadout continues to be Multimelta on a helbrute.

 

I've played against them, and I use them. The real reason I'm using it is not a competitive thing at all...it's because I spent a long time painting the model and I don't think I'd take any other load out. I really hate giving up the CP with this army.

 

That's just me. I think the good ol' Helbrute is my favourite pick with TSons. It continues to do alright for me with a low expectation for great value, and a 5++. But that model is a little limited compared to the 'classic' Thousand Sons Contemptor dread.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Bottom line:

 

Lots of shots on a CORE platform, with a chance of mortal wounds, and 2 damage apiece. They're also at a point in their Strength value where they benefit a lot from buffs and rerolls (which also help fish for 6's).....and then the doozy.....undercosted.

Deathguard love them because of synergy with Tollkeeper, regular Space Marines see the compatibility with Chapter Master, Seal of Oath, etc. The list goes on and on.

Edited September 4, 2021 by GreaterChickenofTzeentch

[Prot]

Well agree to disagree. I just think they're the only Contemptor your typically going to see in a competitive environment. 

 

Really it's a moot point. All GW has to see is someone using 2+ in a tournament and they'll get cooked, and you'll never see any contemptors instead of Volkite Contemptors!

 

Regardless, I have the model. I use it in games because of that (not because of Volkites). If they juice up the cost, the only result will be I won't be using my expensive, nicely painted model. (Unless they lowered the points of other options... or maybe even fixed stuff like... lascannons!)

 

The CP cost really is a factor no one even thinks about when declaring it undercosted as well. Honestly, when making a list I hate giving up that CP with TS. I really pull the Contemptor periodically because I want to play more detachments/ use more relics,etc

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Well agree to disagree. I just think they're the only Contemptor your typically going to see in a competitive environment. 

 

Really it's a moot point. All GW has to see is someone using 2+ in a tournament and they'll get cooked, and you'll never see any contemptors instead of Volkite Contemptors!

 

Regardless, I have the model. I use it in games because of that (not because of Volkites). If they juice up the cost, the only result will be I won't be using my expensive, nicely painted model. (Unless they lowered the points of other options... or maybe even fixed stuff like... lascannons!)

 

The CP cost really is a factor no one even thinks about when declaring it undercosted as well. Honestly, when making a list I hate giving up that CP with TS. I really pull the Contemptor periodically because I want to play more detachments/ use more relics,etc

I personally, despite my stance on the Volkites, use a Plasma/Fist/Flamer Contemptor with my TS for theme and I own four other Contemptors for various armies, none of them VolCons. I agree that they can be great fun and are enjoyable to hobby with.

[Prot]

Lately I’ve noticed the plasma option on competitive lists with contemptors. I haven’t even really looked at the plasma option. (I don’t own the appropriate arm). But I do know my Plasma helbrute absolutely sucks, so it’s gotta be better than the Helbrute variety!

[Xenith]

 I do know my Plasma helbrute absolutely sucks,

 

Might want to reassess that? The guns a flat S8 3D now, averaging 2 shots so making it more reliable at >12" than the multimelta (depending on whether you favour D6 damage over a flat 3 Damage), and has longer range to boot. Swings and roundabouts also on the mortal on 1 to hit - if you get that and knock yourself down to 7W, then you trigger fire frenzy and reroll 1's to wound without your opponent damaging you. 

[Mushkilla]

 

 I do know my Plasma helbrute absolutely sucks,

 

Might want to reassess that? The guns a flat S8 3D now, averaging 2 shots so making it more reliable at >12" than the multimelta (depending on whether you favour D6 damage over a flat 3 Damage), and has longer range to boot. Swings and roundabouts also on the mortal on 1 to hit - if you get that and knock yourself down to 7W, then you trigger fire frenzy and reroll 1's to wound without your opponent damaging you. 

 

 

Does that take into account the multi-melta being two shots now? Also don't dismiss AP-4 over AP-3.

 

I do like the mortal wound triggering fire frenzy part. That's a nice trick.

Edited September 11, 2021 by Mushkilla

[Xenith]

Well, the MM gets 2 shots, the plasma averages 2. Both are S8, then you have ap-4 and d6 damage Vs ap-3 and flat 3 damage at >12".

 

When you get within 12" the MM is better, for sure, but they're at least equivalent at longer range. While the mm caps at 12 damage for 2 wounds Vs the 9 from the plasma, average is 7 Vs 6, so not too different.

[Prot]

 

 I do know my Plasma helbrute absolutely sucks,

 

Might want to reassess that? The guns a flat S8 3D now, averaging 2 shots so making it more reliable at >12" than the multimelta (depending on whether you favour D6 damage over a flat 3 Damage), and has longer range to boot. Swings and roundabouts also on the mortal on 1 to hit - if you get that and knock yourself down to 7W, then you trigger fire frenzy and reroll 1's to wound without your opponent damaging you. 

 

hmmm. Nope. He still stinks. Try a few games with him. To me he brings nothing that a meta brute doesn’t do better. Plus the mm brute doesn’t wound himself. 

[BoomWolf]

I think you are missing that the self harm isn't actually a negative.

 

 

The improved output of the MM as you get closer to punch stuff, seems to be more useful than the plasma extra range though

[Prot]

I think you are missing that the self harm isn't actually a negative.

 

 

The improved output of the MM as you get closer to punch stuff, seems to be more useful than the plasma extra range though

 

How is wounding yourself over 2-3 turns not a negative? Heck in my last game the Helbrute actually put himself down to his last wound.... seems negative to me. What am I missing?

 

The thing people have to realize when I say I try something... I mean I am not theory hammering at this point. When I say X doesn't work for me... I mean in probably no less than 3-4 games, it literally isn't working for me.

 

If you are actually finding plasma to work more for you than Melta, and you've tried both Helbrute variants in a few games, then that's meaningful, and I'd like to hear your literal experience about it, and I mean that.

Edited September 14, 2021 by Prot

[BoomWolf]

Well, the concept is triggering your own frenzy without getting targeted, thus pumping up your damage output.

So if you deal 1 wound to yourself, but in return get a few more wound in thanks to the rerolls-its a net win.

 

Still prefer the melta myself, but its a factor when looking at the plasma. when yuo get a buff for being injured, a self-injury mechanic aint a negative.

[Mushkilla]

 

...when yuo get a buff for being injured, a self-injury mechanic aint a negative...

 

Doing 1-3 wounds to yourself over the course of a game is bad. Especially on a 8W -1D T7 3+/5+ model. You're throwing away all that resilience for a minor buff that you might already have. It completely ignores the fact that that buff will trigger when your opponent damages the hellbrute. In that case the negative of self injury is just that, a negative. It also stripes away a choice for your opponent, when a hellbrute is at full health your opponent is disincentivized to shoot it. Once it's damaged there's no disincentive. There's also no guarantee it will trigger when you want it to trigger. 

 

So yes, unreliable self damage with a minor buff (that you might already have if your opponent shoots you first) on a very resilient unit that removes a choice your opponent has to make is a negative. At least in my book.

Edited September 14, 2021 by Mushkilla