Kill Team 2.0 early tactical Theoreticals (to test out)

[N1SB]

The Primarch Roboute Guilliman had this whole "theoretical, practical" framework of thinking.  Kill Team 2.0 (a.k.a. 2021) just came out, I've been observing some games this weekend, every game has some inclinations where certain things take priority, I'm going to list out what the trends I noticed.  These are NOT facts...they're still in the theoretical stage, I'm not holding them too closely, just making a memorandum, and I welcome everyone's observations.

 

Note - I don't have the rulebook in front of me, it's totally sold out, so am going off memory.  There might be minor mistakes, I'll try to minimise them, but I want to make a memorandum of my initial impressions now.

 

 

+++ Custodes seem really over-powered or under-priced (or both) +++

 

 

I'm just going to address the elephant in the room...which is also the 800 pound gorilla, the Custodes.  Goonhammer and others have also noted this.  I'm not putting down other factions, especially not Marines here on B&C, but Custodes seem a bit over the top.

 

You can have 4 (FOUR!) Custodes in a Kill Team in comparison to, say, 5 Primaris, which makes the Custodes look really OP or under-costed.  Yes, it's a low model count army (but then so are most power armoured Marines), but if you really want to play one, you'd likely totally overlook most Marines (Primaris, Tacticals, Traitor Astartes) and go straight to Custodes.  There's many reasons for this (including things like Kill Team 2.0's Injured debuffing mechanic for units under half-health that Custodes are immune to, but Loyalist Marines don't seem to be).  Then going beneath the surface of sheer stats and wotnot, they have obvious Stratagems like being able to Shoot 2x and Fight 2x, etc.

 

The obvious criticism of Custodes is it's a low model count, but that's also offset by an Actions mechanic in Kill Team 2.0.  Most units perform 2 Actions per activation (no repeats unless with a special rule...such as the Custodes' Shoot 2x and Fight 2x Stratagem).  To get victory points from an objective, you can't just stand on it, you've got to use an Action to score.  Most horde units have 2.  Most Marines have 3.  Custodes have 4.  After watching a few games, I would argue having more Actions overall might be more important than having more models (i.e. 5 Marines with 3 Actions each give a total of 15 Actions, while 4 Custodes with 4 Actions each have 16 overall).  There's even an Overwatch mechanic that seems to favour lower model count armies.  So their weakness of low model count isn't that bad in Kill Team 2.0

 

Theoretical - Custodes are like the "noob cannon" of Kill Team 2.0, the easy, powerful starting crutch to play.  Sample list:

• 4 Custodes, armed however you want (because it doesn't really matter what a 800 lb gorilla wants to fling)

...but there's 2 type of units across factions that seem to reign in Kill Team 2.0.

 

 

+++ Snipers and Heavy Weapons units seem to be the kings of the hill, however +++

 

 

(After praising Custodes so much, Loyalist Marines actually excel in this area.)

 

The last edition of Kill Team favoured really shooty units, and so does Kill Team 2.0 it seems.  But really not sure on this one.

 

Sniper Rifles or Heavy Weapons were MVPs in every game.  There's a Concealed mechanic where Snipers are like in the movies hidden on some high vantage point.  Aside from just doing a lot of consistent damage, Concealed for their silenced weapons means they can shoot and not get shot back.  Then Heavy Weapons that do a lot of high damage shots are the other high threat units.  The only downside is they really need to Have The High Ground, some sort of terrain/roost/perch to shoot down from.

 

Theoretical - Shooty lists might be really good (and here's where Loyalist Marines might shine).  Sample list:

• 1 Sniper Space Marine Scout Sergeant
• 3 Sniper Space Marine Scouts
• 2 Space Marine Scouts with Heavy Weapons
• 4 other Space Marine Scouts

I think Space Marine Scouts brings the most Sniper Rifles and Heavy Weapons (I might be wrong, it might be Mechanicus or Tau).  In the above list, 60% of the Kill Team have them...there's more dudes with top tier ranged weapons than not, and I reckon the rest should be geared for close combat.

 

 

+++ ...and there is an obvious counter to a Sniper/Heavy Weapons-heavy list already +++

 

 

Harlequins also seem a little bit OP due to a combination of their naturally fast movement, but also how they can stay Concealed (they have a Stratagem thing for this) until they want to charge into close combat...which is really easy for them to get into, then win.  Great against all Kill Team 2.0 opponents, but especially ones focused on shooting from afar, as they'll get swamped.

 

Theoretical - Shooty lists might be really good, but Harlequins are the obvious counter.  Sample list:

• 8 Harlequins armed with something you can't see until it's too late

What's the counter to Harlequins?  Custodes.

 

 

+++ Working Theory: the Rock Paper Scissors of Kill Team 2.0 +++

 

 

My overall working theory is there's this Rock Paper Scissors thing going on and it's like this:

• Custodes are the easiest/"best" Kill Team to play with
• ...but they are countered by a Sniper/Heavy Weapons shooty Kill Team
• ...who are in turn beaten by a Harlequin Kill Team
• ...who are vulnerable to a Custodes Kill Team

...and so the Circle of Life Death goes...I think.  Not sure.  I'm testing this out by converting 4 Custodes for public use at our Warhammer Store.

Edited August 29, 2021 by N1SB

[Dolchiate Remembrancer]

Great post. Im hoping you can write up some practicals in a bit once these are tested out.

[Mandragola]

Great post. It'll be interesting to see how this all plays out but I wouldn't argue with what you've said from what I've seen.

 

I have the box set and I've watched a couple of batreps but haven't yet played any games. I'm trying to figure out how to build my guard, based on what I've seen. For the orks it seems like a no-brainer - build all the specialists! You actually get more orks than there are specialist types, which is nice.

 

Guard have some complications that make it a harder call, and a more interesting one. The first is whether to go for all the guns or if you should get the more unusual specialists instead and the second is whether to go for trooper veterans with their GA 2. Oh and also whether to take an auxiliary support thing or four extra guardsmen - if you had them, which I don't.

 

My initial take is that guard therefore need a full roster of 20, with one of everything and 4+ troopers. That way you can make these decisions every game, rather than when you build your guys like I'm doing. But looking at the choices, here are some of the issues.

 

The specialists all provide various buffs. This is really cool, but it does mean you need someone to receive those buffs. A spotter wants to work with a sniper or plasma gun, for example, though it's awesome that he also has a mortar option if his friend dies. If you take all the specialists you won't have very much firepower because they've all just got lasguns.

 

Gunners (perhaps obviously) provide the most raw firepower. I think there's a really strong case for taking all four of them and I think you'll certainly want access to them in case you do need them, particularly since they tend to work best against different enemies. On paper I think I like the plasma gun most because it does a bunch of damage at any range but the flamer is also great for its reliability. Meanwhile the Melta can easily one-shot an operative given the chance and the grenade launcher is really versatile. Fundamentally though, all of them do way more damage than a lasgun, regardless of your opponent.

 

Troopers bring in the interesting question of activations and overwatch. I really don't know how that's going to work in practice. Is it better to try and have more activations and outmanoeuvre your opponent or fewer, to unload your guns first and then maybe get some overwatch shots? Guard veterans actually have a number of tools to lower their activation count, including also the sniper and confidant veteran to chain activations, which could be useful against low model count opponents like marines or custodes, who you really don't want overwatching at you.

 

And of course then there's the question of whether you want more bodies on the board or those lovely big explosions. Not currently a decision I need to make as I only have the ten guys, though it does mean I'd like to get another ten sooner rather than later.

 

Overall, I think it's great that it's not obvious what decision to make here. It looks like they've done a relatively good job of balancing out these decisions... I think. In practice it may be that you always want a gunner over some specialists. There aren't any I really dislike but the zealot looks like maybe not the best use of an activation unless he's surrounded by friends who really want to crit (so actually maybe good if you took the 4 extra guys). The melee guys look a bit suspect to me - unlikely to really prosper against many melee opponents but maybe a useful counter-charge option. And then there are guys that I think you probably always want - the spotter and sniper combo for example, or the confidant veteran to keep orders going.

[lansalt]

I think is obvious GW wants you to get a second Krieg kit to have all the options in a roster.

[LameBeard]

This is interesting about Custodes. I was not expecting 4AP to be that useful - you can only shoot once and fight once, and 4 dudes doesn’t seem a lot to control 6 objective markers. All our games so far are orks vs veteran guardsman. My initial impression is that the orks are a bit more forgiving, a bit less reliant on clever combinations of stratagems and abilities. Edited September 5, 2021 by LameBeard

[Kallas]

This is interesting about Custodes. I was not expecting 4AP to be that useful - you can only shoot once and fight once, and 4 dudes doesn’t seem a lot to control 6 objective markers. All our games so far are orks vs veteran guardsman. My initial impression is that the orks are a bit more forgiving, but less reliant on clever combinations of stratagems and abilities.

 

Well, Custodes do get a Strategic Ploy that lets them "perform up to two Shoot or Fight actions" during their activations for the Turning Point (so they can use this every TP if they want to...and probably will)

 

So Custodes are pretty aggressive: they can Move, Dash, Shoot and Shoot, or some combination, which makes them pretty mobile. Add in that they could, say, Move-Shoot-Shoot-Mission Action, they can still put out a lot of damage while achieving objectives.

[Cactus]

Having 4 APL on one model compared with two models each with 2 APL also increases the efficency of moving, as you only pay once to move the 4 APL model. Two veteran guardsmen in Kallas's example would miss out on either a shoot or mission action because they use two actions to move.

 

I noticed this effect in Blackstone Fortress. When playing with two explorers you have as many actions each turn as a full party of four. Shifting from using 1/2 of your available actions on movement to using 1/4 is huge because you just improved your offensive potential by +50%.

[Darkwrath121]

Well, Custodes do get a Strategic Ploy that lets them "perform up to two Shoot or Fight actions" during their activations for the Turning Point (so they can use this every TP if they want to...and probably will)

 

So Custodes are pretty aggressive: they can Move, Dash, Shoot and Shoot, or some combination, which makes them pretty mobile. Add in that they could, say, Move-Shoot-Shoot-Mission Action, they can still put out a lot of damage while achieving objectives.

They can perform up to two shoot AND fight actions with that strategic ploy, so even better. Though fighting twice then shooting twice is rather niche! Edited September 6, 2021 by Darkwrath121

[Mandragola]

Having 4 APL on one model compared with two models each with 2 APL also increases the efficency of moving, as you only pay once to move the 4 APL model. Two veteran guardsmen in Kallas's example would miss out on either a shoot or mission action because they use two actions to move.

 

I noticed this effect in Blackstone Fortress. When playing with two explorers you have as many actions each turn as a full party of four. Shifting from using 1/2 of your available actions on movement to using 1/4 is huge because you just improved your offensive potential by +50%.

Really good point. You've got more actions and you're using more of them for meaningful stuff.

 

 

Well, Custodes do get a Strategic Ploy that lets them "perform up to two Shoot or Fight actions" during their activations for the Turning Point (so they can use this every TP if they want to...and probably will)

 

So Custodes are pretty aggressive: they can Move, Dash, Shoot and Shoot, or some combination, which makes them pretty mobile. Add in that they could, say, Move-Shoot-Shoot-Mission Action, they can still put out a lot of damage while achieving objectives.

They can perform up to two shoot AND fight actions with that strategic ploy, so even better. Though fighting twice then shooting twice is rather niche!

 

This might not be all that niche. With four models there's a reasonable chance you'd start your activation engaged. After fighting twice a Custodian is likely to find himself not engaged and therefore able to shoot.

 

If Custodes are vulnerable it's to multi-shot attacks. They only get to roll 3 dice so if you can hit them 4+ times they'll take damage. I'd be interested to see what happened if they went up against something like 10 Genestealers too.