Word Bearers Question, Daemon Allies

[Noctus Cornix]

Just a quick couple of questions for my Frater brothers out there, as I've been unable to locate an answer on my own.

 

With Book 8, Malevolence, has there been any FAQ change that states the Word Bearers are no longer able to take allies from Codex: Chaos Daemons? 

 

For those unaware, Several of the named characters and one of the Rites of War allow Word Bearers to take units from the 7th edition Chaos Daemons codex as allies. 

 

Just wanted to check and see if this was still a think or if I had to use Ruinstorm Daemons.

Edited August 31, 2021 by Noctus Cornix

[SkimaskMohawk]

There's not, nothing from book 8 has had a faq and it's been ~2.5 years lol

[Noctus Cornix]

There's not, nothing from book 8 has had a faq and it's been ~2.5 years lol

 

Awesome. Thank you so much!

Edited August 30, 2021 by Noctus Cornix

[Spagunk]

Just a quick couple of questions for my Frater brothers out there, as I've been unable to locate an answer on my own.

 

With Book 8, Malevolence, has there been any FAQ change that states the Word Bearers are no longer able to take allies from Codex: Chaos Daemons? 

 

For those unaware, Several of the named characters and one of the Rites of War allow Word Bearers to take units from the 7th edition Chaos Daemons codex as allies. 

 

Just wanted to check and see if this was still a think or if I had to use Ruinstorm Daemons.

...

From book 8, you can reference page 231 which tells you that Ruinstorm daemons count as Agents of the Warmaster. So If allies are you goal, they're Agents of Horus with the usual caveats. I think you can still summon 7th ed. Codex Daemons but that does not seem to directly related to Ruinstorm daemons.

 

Also while WB have access to summoning units from Demon codex, summoning Ruinstorm daemons are slightly different in that they aren't specifically limited to Traitor or Loyalist. However there are many psyker unit types that are specifically banned from Daemonology powers: Most traitors essentially have full access while Loyalist have to go out of their way to summon anything. Page 254 of Book 8 outlines this a bit. It also states that the Ruinstorm version of Daemonology "should be used" in place of the same powers in the AoD book.

 

Edited August 30, 2021 by Spagunk

[Noctus Cornix]

 

Just a quick couple of questions for my Frater brothers out there, as I've been unable to locate an answer on my own.

 

With Book 8, Malevolence, has there been any FAQ change that states the Word Bearers are no longer able to take allies from Codex: Chaos Daemons? 

 

For those unaware, Several of the named characters and one of the Rites of War allow Word Bearers to take units from the 7th edition Chaos Daemons codex as allies. 

 

Just wanted to check and see if this was still a think or if I had to use Ruinstorm Daemons.

...

From book 8, you can reference page 231 which tells you that Ruinstorm daemons count as Agents of the Warmaster. So If allies are you goal, they're Agents of Horus with the usual caveats. I think you can still summon 7th ed. Codex Daemons but that does not seem to directly related to Ruinstorm daemons.

 

Also while WB have access to summoning units from Demon codex, summoning Ruinstorm daemons are slightly different in that they aren't specifically limited to Traitor or Loyalist. However there are many psyker unit types that are specifically banned from Daemonology powers: Most traitors essentially have full access while Loyalist have to go out of their way to summon anything. Page 254 of Book 8 outlines this a bit. It also states that the Ruinstorm version of Daemonology "should be used" in place of the same powers in the AoD book.

 

 

 

Thanks for the clarification, man. I honestly just wanted to make sure I actually still had access to Chaos Daemons, because there's a couple units like Be'Lakor and Kairos Fateweaver that I'd be interested in taking with my Word Bearers as allies. I'm not especially interested in summoning, but if, I do, I'll be sure to use the Ruinstorm Daemons for that. 

[Brofist]

RAW you can ally with Chaos Daemons from 7th edition, but RAI its pretty clear that they intended to replace them with Ruinstorm Daemons. Best ask your locals to see what they are cool with.

[Spagunk]

 

 

 

 

Thanks for the clarification, man. I honestly just wanted to make sure I actually still had access to Chaos Daemons, because there's a couple units like Be'Lakor and Kairos Fateweaver that I'd be interested in taking with my Word Bearers as allies. I'm not especially interested in summoning, but if, I do, I'll be sure to use the Ruinstorm Daemons for that. 

 

AoD brings up greater daemons but they're written that they need your opponents permission.

[Noctus Cornix]

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for the clarification, man. I honestly just wanted to make sure I actually still had access to Chaos Daemons, because there's a couple units like Be'Lakor and Kairos Fateweaver that I'd be interested in taking with my Word Bearers as allies. I'm not especially interested in summoning, but if, I do, I'll be sure to use the Ruinstorm Daemons for that. 

 

AoD brings up greater daemons but they're written that they need your opponents permission.

 

 

That seems entirely reasonable, but do you know where it says that in the rules? Take allies from Codex: Chaos Daemons is just part of my Legion's rules.

[Spagunk]

 

 

AoD brings up greater daemons but they're written that they need your opponents permission.

 

 

 

That seems entirely reasonable, but do you know where it says that in the rules? Take allies from Codex: Chaos Daemons is just part of my Legion's rules.

 

 

Page 191 of the AoD main book

 

"Some players may be in possession of older publications which contains rules for daemons unites. If both players agree, these rules can be used instead of the generic daemon rules presented here. In this case, several of the malefic daemonology powers are modified, the rules and costs of these powers remain the same, but the unites which they summon are altered as noted below:"

 

The power for greater daemons are the "Possession power". "Incursions" grant bloodcrushers, screamers etc, summoning just grants regular daemons aligned to specific gods.

 

By RAW, you take daemon allies then summon a greater daemon using your legion's rules and the Possession power. Which sound super fluffy tbh: like a escalation where the apex is the psyker getting his spell incantation to bring the greater daemon into play. Otherwise you're limited to the HQ for your allied detachment regarding what kind of daemons you can bring. It's entirely possible there is another rule that can supercede this but at base value I think summoning is the only way you can get a Greater Daemon in the list.

Edited August 31, 2021 by Spagunk

[Noctus Cornix]

With respect, that is not only an entirely different subject on how take daemons, but also technically obsolete since Book 8: Malevolence. 

 

 

The original rules you are presenting  describes summoning daemons, which you do not need to take daemons as allies, just have an esoteric or someone with Malefic: Daemonology lore to enact. In Book 8: Malevolence, the daemonology: malefic lore was replaced with an updated one that allowed players to summon daemons from the Ruinstorm list instead of the generic, unnamed ones.

 

In contrast to this, Word Bearers received explicit permission in the rules to take allied detachment from the 7th edition Codex: Chaos Daemons by using their 'Dark Brethren' Rite of War or by having Erebus or Kor Phaeron in your army with their 'Harbringer of Chaos' rule.

 

RAW, these rules are currently unchanged in any FAQ (far as I've seen atleast) and so they are still a viable option. This also makes some sense, lore-wise, as the Ruinstorm list is meant to represent how little the Imperium and traitors knew of Chaos, but Word Bearers have a significantly stronger understanding of the Pantheon that they worship.

[Spagunk]

With respect, that is not only an entirely different subject on how take daemons, but also technically obsolete since Book 8: Malevolence. 

 

 

The original rules you are presenting  describes summoning daemons, which you do not need to take daemons as allies, just have an esoteric or someone with Malefic: Daemonology lore to enact. In Book 8: Malevolence, the daemonology: malefic lore was replaced with an updated one that allowed players to summon daemons from the Ruinstorm list instead of the generic, unnamed ones.

 

In contrast to this, Word Bearers received explicit permission in the rules to take allied detachment from the 7th edition Codex: Chaos Daemons by using their 'Dark Brethren' Rite of War or by having Erebus or Kor Phaeron in your army with their 'Harbringer of Chaos' rule.

 

RAW, these rules are currently unchanged in any FAQ (far as I've seen atleast) and so they are still a viable option. This also makes some sense, lore-wise, as the Ruinstorm list is meant to represent how little the Imperium and traitors knew of Chaos, but Word Bearers have a significantly stronger understanding of the Pantheon that they worship.

My comment was to address your desire to bring in a non-ruinstorm greater daemon for your WB allied detachment, correct? I am trying to provide you with the means to do so: RAW no on allies since book 8 replaces that but yes via summoning.

 

RAW is that book 8 updates the means for allies. WB can bring daemon allies but book 8 overwrites this to indicate that ONLY ruinstorm daemons are valid. However in the case of summoning, you have permission via the AoD book to bring that in using the powers provided you have consent of your opponent. The powers themselves are replaced via Book 8 but the means to summon a Greater Daemon of Tzeentch or Slanesh still exists since those weren't replaced. Ergo, you have allies as normal, with the allies being Ruinstorm daemons, then you summon a Keeper of Secrets or Changer of Ways or whatever via summoning, using the book 8 summoning rules and the AoD supplimental "How to summon Chaos God specific daemons" blurb.

Edited September 2, 2021 by Spagunk

[Noctus Cornix]

I think there might be a miscommunication here. I apologize if I got anything mixed up.

 

On the matter of summoning, the rules for Summoning Daemons in the AoD Rulebook is obsolete. You mentioned yourself that in Book 8: Malevolence (on pages 254 and 255,) there is an updated Malefic Daemonology lore table. As it states on page 254, "The altered version of that discipline presented here should be used instead of that presented in The Horus Heresy: Age of Darkness Rulebook."

 

Because of this, everyone, has access to summoning units from the Ruinstorm Daemons list and nothing else. I'm sure someone can still ask their opponent if they're cool with just summoning Daemons from Codex: Chaos Daemons, but there's no mention of it in the entry of Book 8.

 

 

On the matter of allies, I was wanting to clarify about taking Daemons from Codex: Chaos Daemons as allies for Word Bearers, as this has always been an exclusive ability for that Legion alone. Ruinstorm Daemons are a complete and unique Armylist that all traitors can take as Allies. Book 8 never mentions that this new armylist replaces the Word Bearers ability to take Codex: Chaos Daemons as allies. As I had asked, I wanted to know if I have missed any FAQ that has changed this fact and stated that the Word Bearers unique ability has changed from Codex: Chaos Daemons to Ruinstorm Daemons. 

 

As SkimaskMohawk has mentioned, there has been no update, which means that, RAW, I can still take Codex: Chaos Daemons as allies with my Word Bearers.

 

I hope that clears things up.

[Spagunk]

Hey man, do whatever makes you happy. If your opponent doesn't let you do what you want, keep that in mind and find a different path. All I'm saying is that RAW, you can only keep ruinstorm daemons as of book 8 for all things, including allies.

 

 

Fyi, the blurb about using god specific greater demons in summoning is a design notes style thing in the main book. It wasn't included in book 8 but does indicate to ignore it. So it should still be valid in the case of using it. The only part that was rewritten was everything in AoD up to that design notes blurb.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Hey man, do whatever makes you happy. If your opponent doesn't let you do what you want, keep that in mind and find a different path. All I'm saying is that RAW, you can only keep ruinstorm daemons as of book 8 for all things, including allies.

 

 

Fyi, the blurb about using god specific greater demons in summoning is a design notes style thing in the main book. It wasn't included in book 8 but does indicate to ignore it. So it should still be valid in the case of using it. The only part that was rewritten was everything in AoD up to that design notes blurb.

That's really not true about DotR being the only daemon option for primary or allies. Samus' datasheet explicitly doesn't invalidate his previous rules, which say;

 

Lord of the RuinStorm: If Samus is selected in an army which uses Codex: Chaos Daemons as its Primary Detachment in Age of Darkness games, Samus may be counted as a HQ choice rather than as a Lords of War choice. If this is the case, then Samus must be the army’s Warlord and has the following Warlord trait rather than rolling to determine a trait.

So RAW, going by the fact you can take Codex Daemons as allies in Word bearers and make a Codex Daemons army with Samus as an HQ, it means they can be taken as primary and and allies. The ruinstorm rules only cover the...daemons of the ruinstorm