Forge World Chapter Successors

[Charlo]

So how do these work?

 

According to some, as the chapter tactics are only suggested you can use them as a successor of any Chapter with any combo of tactics and still use their special characters.

 

Is this right? Are you not limited to the suggested?

[Brother Tyler]

As far as I understand it, when a Chapter's lineage is known, certain limitations become automatic. For example, since we know that the Silver Templars are a Successor of the Ultramarines Legion (and Chapter), they must follow limitations for the Ultramarines [successors] in Codex: Space Marines and Codex Supplement: Ultramarines. Their specific Chapter Tactics, however, are only a suggestion, giving players the freedom to deviate from those Chapter Tactics while still limiting them to the options available for Ultramarines Successors. So you can't play the Silver Templars using rules for, say, the Salamanders.

 

The above, of course, depends upon the environment and gaming group in which you play. If you play with a group that doesn't follow those limits, you may have different options. Some groups, for example, are more strict and might require you to play by the suggested rules. Others, meanwhile, are more liberal in what they allow, possibly allowing you to deviate considerably.

 

What "Forge World Chapter Successors" do you mean? The two key Chapters that Forge World focused on were the Red Scorpions and Minotaurs, neither of which has a clear lineage, allowing players considerable freedom. Forge World also presented [outdated] rules for a number of Chapters in the Badab War books and others. In some cases, such as the Howling Griffons and Marines Errant, lineage was locked in (both of these Chapters being descended from the Ultramarines). Other Chapters in the Badab War books didn't have their lineage revealed, or their lineage was only speculative at that time. Some of those,  such as the Carcharodons Astra and the Star Phantoms, remain in question (even if there are strong suspicions one way or another). The Exorcists have had their lineage definitively revealed. Other Successor Chapters appeared in other books, such as the Red Hunters (lineage unknown) and the Angels Revenant (Ultramarines Successor). I recall very few Chapters that were featured in Forge World books having suggested rules appear for 8th/9th edition, however. The Raven Guard (Raid on Kastorel-Novem), Space Wolves (The Doom of Mymeara), Salamanders (The Badab War), Grey Knights (The Siege of Vraks), and Dark Angels (The Siege of Vraks) obviously follow the rules given for them in their respective codices/codex supplements. By extension, the Chapters with known lineage such as the Sons of Medusa, Angels of Absolution, Howling Griffons, etc. would normally follow the limitations allowed to them. Other than that, though, I only know of the Exorcists getting current edition rules. Did I miss some other Chapters from Forge World books getting rules somewhere?

[Gederas]

[stuff]

I think Charlo is asking about the successors that have "recommended" successor chapter tactics in the 9th edition Imperial Armour Compendium. Specifically these are:

1. Red Scorpions: recommended tactic Inheritors of the Primarch [ultramarines]) and Codex Supplement: Ultramarines
2. Minotaurs: recommended tactic Duellists+Stalwart and Codex Supplement: Imperial Fists
3. Blood Ravens: recommended tactic Stalwart+Knowledge is Power and Codex Supplement: Ultramarines (same as the Index Astartes from the White Dwarf)
4. Astral Claws: recommended tactic Rapid Assault+Hungry for Battle and Codex Supplement: Ultramarines
5. Carcharodons: recommended tactic Stealthy+Whirlwind of Rage and Codex Supplement: Raven Guard

Because a lot of people take the words "we recommend" from GW as "you must do this" when it's in the rules/FAQ

[Charlo]

Gederas is right!

 

I also because recently some tournament players have used things like Red Scorpions as Space Wolf successors. Which in turn does things like giving Sevrin Loth access to their tempestas discipline.

 

So before planing something like this, wanted to see it's legitimacy

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

There's two relevant portions. At the top, Forge World says "The Red Scorpions, Minotaurs, Blood Ravens, Astral Claws and Carcharodons Chapters are all successor Chapters, and use the rules for such as described in Codex: Space Marines." The second portion below is the "recommended suggestions" regarding choosing supplements and individual chapter tactics.

 

From my reading, this is not a suggestion. Red Scorpions are vanilla Space Marines, period, and they've had official rules saying such for many years now in past editions.

 

What follows after that IS a suggestion. If you don't want to use Imperial Fists rules for Red Scorpions, that's fine, but the rules as written imply strongly that you must still pick from Codex: Space Marines and not, for example, Codex: Space Wolves.

[Sword Brethren Durion]

Any idea if forge world chapter could get any index astartes in a white dwarf? Got a friend who is a huge of carcharodon and dream about something for them.

[Rik Lightstar]

There's two relevant portions. At the top, Forge World says "The Red Scorpions, Minotaurs, Blood Ravens, Astral Claws and Carcharodons Chapters are all successor Chapters, and use the rules for such as described in Codex: Space Marines." The second portion below is the "recommended suggestions" regarding choosing supplements and individual chapter tactics.

 

From my reading, this is not a suggestion. Red Scorpions are vanilla Space Marines, period, and they've had official rules saying such for many years now in past editions.

 

What follows after that IS a suggestion. If you don't want to use Imperial Fists rules for Red Scorpions, that's fine, but the rules as written imply strongly that you must still pick from Codex: Space Marines and not, for example, Codex: Space Wolves.

 

This would be my feeling too, however now that the Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Black Templars are Supplements the same way as any of the other Supplement Chapters it's a lot harder to suggest that you're not following the rules.

 

You're using Codex: Space marines + XXXXX Supplement either way.

 

Rik

[Charlo]

The successor chapter rules also technically cover the BA/ DA/ SW too though. As they are viable successors in the main codex.

 

The rules are just expanded in the supplements.

[Brother Tyler]

Technically, all five of those Chapters have unknown lineage, so they are simply subject to the Successors rules.

 

The Red Scorpions, Blood Ravens, and Minotaurs are definitely unknown (despite real world suspicions about the latter two), so players could reasonably use anything.

 

The Astral Claws are thought in-universe to be Ultramarines Successors (though the Ultramarines Chapter hasn't accepted this claim). Depending on how you look at it, you might choose to limit them to those rules allowed to Ultramarines Successors.

 

The Carcharodons Astra are thought in-universe to be Raven Guard Successors, so might be limited to rules for such Chapters.

 

For me personally, that's how I would play it if I were collecting those armies. However, I wouldn't hold opponents to that standard. If someone wants to play the Minotaurs as Space Wolves Successors, that's fine with me as long as everything is clear and fair.

 

Different strokes for different folks.

[Galron]

There are no limits. FW only recommends things based on the fluff. The rules are yours to do as you wish. If you want Blood Angel successor Red Scorpions for some reason, go for it. You absolutely DO NOT have to use the recommended rules set. As usual paint scheme doesnt matter at all. I know a tournament guy who has a dark blue and grey marine army and I have seen him use them for everything from Raven Guard to Emperors Children to the Death Watch he just won a tournie with.

[Spinsanity]

you must still pick from Codex: Space Marines and not, for example, Codex: Space Wolves.

There no longer is such a thing as Codex: Space Wolves. Even an Ultramarines successor, as you seem to be implying, would use Codex Supplement: Ultramarines, which is no different from another chapter using Codex Supplement: Space Wolves.

[Bulwyf]

The suggestions are simply that: suggestions. I play Space Sharks and use White Scars rules for them. Their geneseed is a mix of loyalist Night Lord and Raven Guard from their trading geneseed with the Astral Claws. You can pick whatever you want for them. Personally, the RG rules have almost nothing to do with how Space Sharks actually fight. They don't sit back and snipe people to death or perform hit and run tactics. They get in your face, say nothing, and literally rip you apart. They love causing terror while they murder their way through the enemy. They use speed and surprise to get to the enemy rising out of the Outer Dark like an ocean predator. Kinda like....a shark. 

 

The RG rules don't fit, at all, with their doctrines of warfare. So I use White Scars with hungry for battle and whirlwind of rage for my chapter tactics. 

[Naryn]

The suggestions are simply that: suggestions. I play Space Sharks and use White Scars rules for them. Their geneseed is a mix of loyalist Night Lord and Raven Guard from their trading geneseed with the Astral Claws. You can pick whatever you want for them. Personally, the RG rules have almost nothing to do with how Space Sharks actually fight. They don't sit back and snipe people to death or perform hit and run tactics. They get in your face, say nothing, and literally rip you apart. They love causing terror while they murder their way through the enemy. They use speed and surprise to get to the enemy rising out of the Outer Dark like an ocean predator. Kinda like....a shark.

 

The RG rules don't fit, at all, with their doctrines of warfare. So I use White Scars with hungry for battle and whirlwind of rage for my chapter tactics.

By contrast, my White Scars successor Mantis Warriors are much more fit to the Raven Guard tactics than those of their own ancestral chapter. Want to trade? :lol:

[Bulwyf]

 

The suggestions are simply that: suggestions. I play Space Sharks and use White Scars rules for them. Their geneseed is a mix of loyalist Night Lord and Raven Guard from their trading geneseed with the Astral Claws. You can pick whatever you want for them. Personally, the RG rules have almost nothing to do with how Space Sharks actually fight. They don't sit back and snipe people to death or perform hit and run tactics. They get in your face, say nothing, and literally rip you apart. They love causing terror while they murder their way through the enemy. They use speed and surprise to get to the enemy rising out of the Outer Dark like an ocean predator. Kinda like....a shark.

 

The RG rules don't fit, at all, with their doctrines of warfare. So I use White Scars with hungry for battle and whirlwind of rage for my chapter tactics.

By contrast, my White Scars successor Mantis Warriors are much more fit to the Raven Guard tactics than those of their own ancestral chapter. Want to trade?

 

 

I'm good lol.

[War of the Eagle]

These? These may taste, smell, look, and feel like "Raptors", but I assure you they are the "Unfortunate Sons" sucessors to the Dark Angels. Chapter badge similarities is merely coincidental.

[Rik Lightstar]

These? These may taste, smell, look, and feel like "Raptors", but I assure you they are the "Unfortunate Sons" sucessors to the Dark Angels. Chapter badge similarities is merely coincidental.

With the number of Chapters, the propensity towards certain colours and iconography alongside the notoriously shoddy Imperial record keeping, it seems entirely possible that at some points you could have two visually very similar Chapters with completely different lineage.

 

Rik