Lore Confusion

[INKS]

I just got my 9th Ed Codex. (long overdue)

Here in this thread I wanted to post some question of confusion I have about the Necrons.

I realize before even posting these musings that they are simply that, and some of the time there aren't going to be real answers.

 

1: Living Metal vs. Models depiction. Living metal indicates that the Necrons shouldn't really suffer from disrepair even though it's mention many times throughout the codex. The newer models show this in the decaying skulls, holes throughout them and general disrepair. Shouldn't living metal stop this? I am not saying they should be shiny and new but they shouldn't have exposed wires and holes in their skulls. I haven't read anything to indicate that the living metal itself is failing, although maybe that is the case.

 

2: The Great Slumber: Something about this current lore doesn't sit right with me. The Necrons finally defeat the Old Ones (their greatest foe), they capture / defeat the C'tan while they are weakened from this fight but then they withdraw and hide from the Eldar who are apparently too great a foe. To make this a little more baffling the Necron number in the billions when they go to sleep and are united under the command protocols, making them even stronger and more coherent. I guess the Eldar were really just that strong and outnumbering at the time? It' doesn't directly indicate this in the lore but that is the only explanation I can come up with. On top of this lore it's hinted at that the Necron mostly hide, I'm not sure how you hide Billions of them without the Eldar finding a good deal of you since they have nothing else to do or to fight.

 

3: Loss of Soul and Individuality : The lore doesn't go into detail here. The Necron nobles more or less go through this process without losing their individuality. But the warriors and most of the race in general does. Why is their process different? Why not stop the process when you see what is happening to your people? It doesn't explain the process itself and so I sort of assume it's not too different from undergoing some sort of procedure to download yourself into this new living metal body. In that process you are lost. But only for the most basic of troops. The higher up you go, the more elite the member of society you are, the less of you is lost. It's not a % of you that fail like crossing the Rubicon for marines (60% failure for example), it seems to be all or nothing. Or maybe that isn't true and the lore just doesn't go into those details. It just doesn't make sense to me. I am probably putting too much emphasis into this process and comparing it tol a space marine which is probably not like what the Necrons went through. They are doing more than just crossing the Rubicon I suppose. Although the metaphor still holds.

 

More thoughts to add as I read more into the codex.

[INKS]

4: Blackstone / Blackstone Fortresses - These seem to be Necron constructs? Or possibly Necron constructs. They don't seem to claim them as their own tech though and so it's highly possible and probable that they were made before the War in Heaven and perhaps even by another race all together. Does this mean that the Spinel drones and Guardian drones are of Necron design? On a personal note I would love for them to be added as some sort of Cryptek unit. I also theorize that perhaps they are of their own construct even if the Blackstone fortresses are of Necron design. The drones do have some sort of Necron type look and yet they look to be a design not connected to them either. Would love more lore on these guys.

[Closet Skeleton]

The 9th ed Codex only presents a summary of Eldar mythology, not a complete set of facts.

 

War in Heaven Eldar had a pre-Industrial technology level and no Space Ships. They could be shipped around the Webway but were just psychic cannon fodder for the Old Ones, on their own not a threat to even a single Necron dynasty. But the Avatar of Khaine was able to defeat the Nightbringer.  3rd ed Codex had the Enslaver Plague take out both the Old Ones and the C'tan and the 5th ed retcon to the end of the War in Heaven still mentioned 'Warp-spawned perils' so didn't intend to completely remove that from the background.

 

5th ed Codex has the Necrons as worried about the Eldar for unexplained reasons while the 9th ed one has "the Old Ones' vengeful servants, chief among them the Aeldari" so it wasn't just the Eldar alone who scared the weakened Necrons off. Orikan the Diviner predicted the Eldar's fall so the decision might have been to let the Old One's creations fall into civil war rather than face them as a united front.

 

The Necron's lack of psykers just makes their ability to use faster than light travel to be inferior to any psychic species. Both the Necrons and the Eldar are reliant on the Old Ones' Webway which rebels against the Necron's presence while the Eldar have full mastery over it. The warp powers unleashed in the War in Heaven also probably made the webway far from safe. Its not that the Necrons weren't powerful enough to fight the younger species but that they were almost incapable of maneuvering their might. Its the same reason the Imperium can't beat the T'au Empire except the Necrons were up against the equivilant of multiple angry T'au Empires with superior psychic and faster than light ability.

 

Blackstone Fortresses are the Anvils of Vaul, anti-Necron/C'tan weapons. The excerpt from the Book of Mournful Night in the 9th ed codex claims they were used to destroy the Void Dragon but doesn't state that the Necrons made them. Spindel Drones are either original to the Fortress' builders or actually Dark Age human technology that got incorporated into a particular Fortress at some point in the distant past.

 

Old fluff was that only the C'tan, Monoliths and Space ships had Living Metal (capitalised), the newer post 5th ed describes all Necrons as being 'of living metal' (not capitalised). So its not clear that there's one use those words. Necron warriors phase out when heavily damaged and need Tomb Spyders and other constructs for serious repairs.

 

The Eldar did destroy sleeping Tomb Worlds according to the 5th and 9th ed codexes, but there are a lot of solar systems.

 

A lot of Necrons nobility did lose most of their individuality, those are the regular Necron Lords. The 5th ed codex which first introduced Necron Lords with personalities explained that it was the quality of the bodies that allowed higher ranking nobles to keep more of themselves.

 

The Necrons are at their weakest after defeating the Old Ones and C'tan, part of the great sleep is to repair and rebuild.

[Tyriks]

I also believe the Eldar we have now are less dangerous psychically because of the Fall.  The Craftworld Eldar are extremely disciplined about using their psychic abilities which young Eldar would not have been.  Add in that the Drukhari have squashed their psychic abilities so thoroughly and it seems like the danger is greatly diminished.  

 

Blackstone Fortresses they seem to want to keep vague for possible later use so there are sources that imply they are Necron and some that suggest they aren't.  Seems likely that whoever made them the other side probably hijacked many because both sides used them.  

 

Living metal isn't perfect and has different levels of quality.  The nobility have high quality stuff that repairs quickly and continuously, but lower class units have worse and worse quality.  Warriors I would guess have theirs focused entirely on keeping a model functioning, not aesthetically intact, and it can struggle to keep up if damage is being consistently dealt.  

 

Some Eldar continued to hunt Tomb Worlds as they slept.  I would imagine at first they weren't too keen to go looking for the Necrons, since they had just eliminated the two most powerful forces in the galaxy at the time.

[INKS]

I appreciate the input and discussion. I don't have access the the 5th ed codex but it seems I need to get my hands on it for a more complete picture. I know that some of the lore gets retcon'd over time.

 

Above it is said that the Necrons are slow in terms of speed of ships but the 9th Ed Codex says this isn't really the case. They are nearly as fast as Imperial Ships who are using the Emperor's Light in order to travel. This leads me as the reader to believe that Necron ships are actually superior for not having to rely on the psychic powers for travel and still maintain close to the same speed. The Tau also have this tech. It would be interesting to learn who is faster. The Tau ships or the Necrons Ships. I imagine we'll never know the real answer to this.

 

Spindle Drones:  

"Spindel Drones are either original to the Fortress' builders or actually Dark Age human technology that got incorporated into a particular Fortress at some point in the distant past."

 

Where does the idea that they might be from the Dark Age of human tech come from?

 

It states that the Mephrit Dynasty was the largest of the Dynasties to use star killing war machines. They did a lot of the "exterminatus" for the other Necron Dynasties. I wonder if they were some of the key users of black stone fortresses. It doesn't mention them or the specific war machines used in this process but they make it seem like they were quite devastating. 

 

It's a shame (I am still reading) but it seems like a lot of the lore in 9th ed gets glossed over. I realize that his is likely on purpose but it makes it frustrating in understanding the Necrons in general and as a whole.

[Closet Skeleton]

I also believe the Eldar we have now are less dangerous psychically because of the Fall.  The Craftworld Eldar are extremely disciplined about using their psychic abilities which young Eldar would not have been.  Add in that the Drukhari have squashed their psychic abilities so thoroughly and it seems like the danger is greatly diminished. 

 

They also had a whole pantheon of gods rather than just one smashed into pieces.

 

 

Some Eldar continued to hunt Tomb Worlds as they slept.  I would imagine at first they weren't too keen to go looking for the Necrons, since they had just eliminated the two most powerful forces in the galaxy at the time.

 

Its explicitly stated that they were 'vengeful' until they lost interest and everyone but the ancestors of Alaitoc forgot how to find Tomb worlds to destroy.

 

 

Where does the idea that they might be from the Dark Age of human tech come from?

 

 

It was mentioned when Warhammer Quest first came out, I've not read the actual game materials.

 

 

Above it is said that the Necrons are slow in terms of speed of ships but the 9th Ed Codex says this isn't really the case. They are nearly as fast as Imperial Ships who are using the Emperor's Light in order to travel. This leads me as the reader to believe that Necron ships are actually superior for not having to rely on the psychic powers for travel and still maintain close to the same speed. The Tau also have this tech. It would be interesting to learn who is faster. The Tau ships or the Necrons Ships. I imagine we'll never know the real answer to this.

 

Tau are super limited in range. The Astronomican and Navigators don't affect ship speed, they're what they say on the tin, navigators. Being able to build a ship that can go very fast in a single direction is basically useless at crossing the galaxy to reach a destination.

 

Imperial ships can enter the warp fine and travel to a neighbouring star system with no psykers or navigators on board.

 

Necrons used to have the fastest ships but that got retconned in 5th ed to webway travel. Necrons are faster than Tau and Imperial ships because warp engines are unrealiable while the webway is much safer. Necron webway use might be faster than the Eldar because they can't stay in the webway and have to get out as quickly as possible.

 

What page does it discuss faster than light speed?

 

 

It's a shame (I am still reading) but it seems like a lot of the lore in 9th ed gets glossed over. I realize that his is likely on purpose but it makes it frustrating in understanding the Necrons in general and as a whole.

 

9th ed books all seem to be bad at background information. The Death Guard codex has rules for Plague Companies but no actual explanation of them at all.

 

 

9th ed Codex page 11

Beyond simple armoured toughness, the Necrons also benefit from a technology known as living metal - this substance can alter its molecular state in a semi-sentient fashion, flowing and replicating ot heal battle damage as fast as it is inflicted. Just as disturbing to see are the Necrons' reanimation protocols. Should one of their soldiery be felled in battle, a flickering nimbus of crawling energies slowly draws the fallen combatant's twitching components back together.... ... Those too sorely damaged even for this are known to vanish in flares of light, either recalled to their stasis-crypts for extensive repair or destroyed...

 

...Meanwhile, devices such as the phylactery or the ghostly beam of the Canoptek Reanimator contain swarms of nanoscarabs that rapidly reknit sundered Necron bodies and machinery...

 

So living metal isn't the same thing as re-animation protocols and it doesn't clearly state that the average warrior is made of this specific living metal.

Edited September 2, 2021 by Closet Skeleton

[Captain Idaho]

Well the old lore from 3rd edition was the superior material and GW amended it for some unknown reason and trying to fit things in. I'm not surprised plenty of stuff doesn't add up.

 

Which is odd as the argument for the "nu fluff" I've often seen is it brings/allows character to the army, but GW haven't put that into the army. In fact, it's the least of the 9th edition Codex books.

[INKS]

Haven't had time to continue my reading yet. Will update when I do.

[Bonzi]

First rule of 40K is fluff does not equal table top play. Fluff is written and to be read as a mix of rumor, speculation, and faction propaganda. Also, GW typically leans on generic tropes and space magic rather than actual combat scenarios in depth science applied to a fictional universe so logic doesn't really get a peak in the window. Layered on top of this is the fact that GW has intentionally shattered the concept of linear time so they have room to run without being slaves to an established timeline.

 

You're kind of spinning your wheels if you want fluff, game play, and design aesthetics to line up after decades of revision, reinvention, endless different authors and designers, and corporate directives. It's fun to dive into the lore and to talk about unit abilities and faction threat levels, but you have to do it without ever expecting and absolute and consistent answer.

[tychobi]

Fluff inconsistency is a feature of 40k. Use it as a blurry biased mythology rather than any sort of hard cannon and you will be much happier.

[INKS]

I understand that things aren't always going to line up. But I also don't see the harm in pointing out those pitfalls or question the logic. Just because it doesn't make sense doesn't mean I am not enjoying myself. I am also not unhappy. Please don't get that impression. I am also not angry either, so please don't draw that conclusion. I like to read and do my best to understand what is being presented and then come here to discuss that. That is all this thread really is.

[INKS]

I have now finished the lore aspect of the 9th Ed codex.

What other edition codices should I be looking at obtaining for the lore.

I feel as though 9th Ed did a decent job with the various characters but the lore itself feels as though I should already have a foundation that I don't have in order to appreciate and understand some of it. 

 

I did at one time own a 3rd Ed Codex (sadly it's gone now) and from what I understand a good deal of the 3rd edition lore and before that is all retconned anyway. 

 

So:

Was there a 4th?

5th? I see this referenced some times.

6th?

7th?

8th? I think this was the latest until 9th?

[Get Thokt]

There are 5 Necron codexes iirc. 3rd, 5th, 7th, 8th and now 9th.

 

8th was packed with a large and relevant amount of lore

Edited September 7, 2021 by Get Thokt

[INKS]

What about Necrons in books and novels? Anyone have a current list?

[Karhedron]

Night Bringer ties in with the 3rd Ed codex and is also the start of the Uriel Ventris chronicles.

 

The short story War in the Museum gives some insight into both Trazyn and Orikan.

 

The Great Work is mainly about Belesarius Cawl but does include an exploration of a (mostly) dormant Tomb World and an interesting encounter with its guardian.

 

The 1st Gathering Storm book, Fall of Cadia, also features Trazyn.

[INKS]

Thanks, I will look into all of those. I have a few short stories but I am always looking for more books on Necrons or that include them.

[Daimyo-Phaeron Lenoch]

Karhedron forgot The Infinite and the Divine, which is a book chronicling what Trazyn and Orikan did for much of the time between M…I want to say 28 or 29? And M40-41ish. It spans the Heresy up to modern 40k.

 

It’s a phenomenal book, and the paperback print came out fairly recently. 5/5 recommend.

[Bonzi]

The 9th Ed book is thin on fluff outside of what they are currently up to. 7-8th codexs have more 'new cron' fluff in general. 3rd and 5th Ed dexes are going to be old Cron fluff which was Cthulhu-esque in substance and doest really jive with the new fluff.

 

Hands down the best bit of fluff in the new codex is the Eldar poem about the fall of the ctan. That one bit has more lore about ctan outside of the Deceiver and the Night Bringer than we've ever had previously. The biggest disappointment for me in the 9th Ed book as that we get a new model for the Void Dragon but so very little information about it lore wise.

Edited September 9, 2021 by Bonzi

[Karhedron]

Karhedron forgot The Infinite and the Divine, which is a book chronicling what Trazyn and Orikan did for much of the time between M…I want to say 28 or 29? And M40-41ish. It spans the Heresy up to modern 40k.

Thanks, I knew I had forgotten something.

[Trokair]

What about Necrons in books and novels? Anyone have a current list?

 

There is also Dead Men Walking by Steve Lyons, Krieg guardsman verses some necrons.

I cannot remember where it falls on the fluff spectrum of 2nd edition/3rd edition, 5th edition retcon, and current, but gut feeling says 5th edition lore (kind off).

[Galron]

I dont remember what the current fluff is but being deployed at the time,I had plenty of time to read the last codex and that is where my army fluff lies. Warriors are basic robots with barely enough intelligence to perform anything other than their primary programming. Immortals were prior soldiers and still have cognitive thinking ability and the ability to converse with other immortals and higher. I read somewhere that all they talk about with each other is military tactics and that type of discussion. Lychguard are higher level capable of independent thought and were elite troops  prior to getting transferred into their metal bodies. They still do not have bantor and so forth except among each other. Higher level than that is full thought processes and personalities.

 

I think Royal Wardens are likely Lychguard level troops capable of independent thought but not enough personality to have their own personal goals outside of their Pharon's will. 

 

I forget where the Destroyer cult fits into the narrative. 

[INKS]

I've gone and compiled a huge list of fluff and sources. I am seeing how much of it I can obtain. It gets expensive fast, even used.